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  1. #1

    10man Achivments vs 25man (Garrosh Heroic steal)

    Hey, i can't find another Thread about this, but i have to ask something about

    Guild Feats of Strength
    Guild

    Realm First! Garrosh Hellscream (10 player) (New) First guild on the realm to defeat Garrosh Hellscream in Siege of Orgrimmar on 10-player Heroic difficulty while in a guild group.
    Realm First! Garrosh Hellscream (25 player) (New) First guild on the realm to defeat Garrosh Hellscream in Siege of Orgrimmar on 25-player Heroic difficulty while in a guild group.

    Is it or how is it possible that a 25man Guild are not able to get the 10man achivment from the Server 1st?
    Because its quite unfair that a Guild who allrdy killed it on 25man Heroic go to 10man and kill it again while the 10mans still try to kill the final boss?
    The other side is, a 10man Guild who allrdy killed the final Boss is not able to get (steal) the 25man Achivement, there are any plays to work on that?

    Any Informations would be nice.

    greetings

  2. #2
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    I don't see the problem. If they got it on 25man then got it on 10man on alts they still earned it.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
    I don't see the problem. If they got it on 25man then got it on 10man on alts they still earned it.
    This.

    Or do you think their 25-man kill should also be invalidated for some dumb reason?

  4. #4
    Scarab Lord Gimlix's Avatar
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    This happened in WOTLK too, it's fair.
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  5. #5
    Way to go blizzard screwing the one reason I even step in a heroic raid - just to get the whispers when you down it and show who is best. There better be only 1 achievement "allowed" per realm or I will have to go out of my way and screw the 10man guilds and clear it week after the 25man clear.

  6. #6
    10man is close enough to 25man now in difficulty that it would still represent a significant challenge, in fact, speaking from experience, a fair few bosses this tier have been absolute faceroll when switching to 25man from 10man.

    If the 10's guild haven't managed to kill the end boss by the time the 25 guild has killed it once on 25 and then again on 10, why do they deserve a realm first achievement? It's about getting there first, sure, the 25 guild had better gear by killing it once already and a bigger understanding of the fight, but they also had to do it twice.

    If you want realm first, you have to be faster than the rest, end of story.

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  7. #7
    Scarab Lord Gimlix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    Way to go blizzard screwing the one reason I even step in a heroic raid - just to get the whispers when you down it and show who is best. There better be only 1 achievement "allowed" per realm or I will have to go out of my way and screw the 10man guilds and clear it week after the 25man clear.
    Are you serious or just trolling?
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  8. #8
    It seems kinda silly for a 25 man guild to go in and do it on 10 man, just to snag up the achievement, but then again that's what you kids do. No worries on our server at the moment. There is one top raiding guild and then everyone else is back around 4/13-3/13. So unless the new Virtual realms change that, we'd never see the 10 man one got until next Xpac.

    Method and Paragon both said that 10 and 25s are different races and don't consider themselves competing directly against each other. So not sure why a 25 man would feel like they need to soak up the 10 man achievement if we're truly considering it a different race, but again, that's what you kids do.
    Last edited by Mad_Murdock; 2013-06-28 at 12:44 PM.

  9. #9
    I think there's a restriction, only one realm first! achievement per guild. So if the guild got the achievement on 25 man, they can't obtain the 10 man one and the other way around.
    I don't think blizzard wants players to run both sizes just to get the achievement. Same goes for the ahead of the curve / cutting edge achievements
    Last edited by Ruffles; 2013-06-28 at 12:47 PM.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    It seems kinda silly for a 25 man guild to go in and do it on 10 man, just to snag up the achievement, but then again that's what you kids do. No worries on our server at the moment. There is one top raiding guild and then everyone else is back around 4/13-3/13. So unless the new Virtual realms change that, we'd never see the 10 man one got until next Xpac.

    Method and Paragon both said that 10 and 25s are different races and don't consider themselves competing directly against each other. So not sure why a 25 man would feel like they need to soak up the 10 man achievement if we're truly considering it a different race, but again, that's what you kids do.
    So if there happens to be a 10-man guild on the same server as a 25-man guild, the 25-man guild has to wait for the 10-man to kill the endboss before they can start farming it on their alts?

    This really isn't complicated, whoever kills the boss first deserves the FoS. With that said, any 10-man worth their money losing their realm first to a 25-man doesn't deserve the FoS to begin with.

  11. #11
    Pandaren Monk TOlzzon's Avatar
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    Cant really see it as a steal.

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  12. #12
    Epic! Ealyssa's Avatar
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    At least this post clearly state that 25 is easier. One debate closed.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    At least this post clearly state that 25 is easier. One debate closed.
    Exactly what I was going to say.

    The 25M guild are probably incapable of a 10M clear the next week anyway, don't worry about it.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Vereesà View Post
    So if there happens to be a 10-man guild on the same server as a 25-man guild, the 25-man guild has to wait for the 10-man to kill the endboss before they can start farming it on their alts?
    How many 25 mans farm 10 man ? When I look a the top 25 man guild on our server I see 25 man alt runs. When I look over at other top 25 man guilds I see 25 man alt runs. They drop more loot, higher chance for Thunderforge, why would you run 10 ? Are you going to run 10 just so that no one can get that 10 man achievement ?

    Look it's really not complicated. 10 man is a different race than 25 man. If 25 mans think they deserve the lone feat of strength, they need to take that up with Blizzard, because Blizzard apparently disagrees.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    How many 25 mans farm 10 man ? When I look a the top 25 man guild on our server I see 25 man alt runs. When I look over at other top 25 man guilds I see 25 man alt runs. They drop more loot, higher chance for Thunderforge, why would you run 10 ? Are you going to run 10 just so that no one can get that 10 man achievement ?

    Look it's really not complicated. 10 man is a different race than 25 man. If 25 mans think they deserve the lone feat of strength, they need to take that up with Blizzard, because Blizzard apparently disagrees.
    We are on a fairly small realm (Hellfire-EU) and are raiding 25-man, we do our alt-raids in 10 since not enough people interested for 25 but it´s not like we steamroll through content, if blizzards does things well there will be key differences in the fights between the difficulties (think Dark Animus 10 vs 25) so 25-man guilds atleast have to alter/come up with new tactics.

    I agree with the split achievments tho, the only guild above us is a 10-man and I think its fair to split it up. MOST 25-man guilds wont be able to get both realm firsts, and those who do probably deserves it.

    Reasoning behind the split achievments could be something like making 25 alittle more prestigious again, which it actually is...

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    At least this post clearly state that 25 is easier. One debate closed.
    I suppose if you already believe that and are just looking for anything you can use to support your pre-formed opinion, then yes, this post does clearly state that.

    Alternatively, it states using logic that if you have a team of 25 raiders capable of clearing 25M heroic, it is highly probable that your best team of 10 of those raiders will be capable of clearing 10M heroic. That doesn't mean 10M is harder or easier, simply that you have a skilled team that's already cleared the content on heroic on one size (and at that point has the gear they obtained by doing so), and thus it's not that hard to believe they'd be capable of doing the other. By contrast, a team that clears it on 10M heroic probably has 10 people capable of clearing it on 25M heroic, but they'd need to find 15 other capable raiders, which is a logistical challenge (that does not in any way make the raid itself harder from a skill perspective).

    (Also note that I'm not arguing that 25M is easier or harder; I'm not making any statements as to which is harder or easier. I'm simply stating that the belief that a 25M team that clears 25H one week logically has a very good chance of clearing the 10H the following week if they so choose, from a simple raid comp perspective.)

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by PvtPJ View Post
    Is it or how is it possible that a 25man Guild are not able to get the 10man achivment from the Server 1st?
    Because its quite unfair that a Guild who allrdy killed it on 25man Heroic go to 10man and kill it again while the 10mans still try to kill the final boss?
    If the 10 man group can't kill the 10 man bosses at the same speed as the 25 man group kills the 25 man bosses, and even so slow that the 25 man can kill them sooner, they don't deserve Realm First anyway. I don't see the problem.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Amerissis View Post
    If the 10 man group can't kill the 10 man bosses at the same speed as the 25 man group kills the 25 man bosses, and even so slow that the 25 man can kill them sooner, they don't deserve Realm First anyway. I don't see the problem.
    What are we calling same speed ? Same week, same month ?

    We are on a fairly small realm (Hellfire-EU) and are raiding 25-man, we do our alt-raids in 10 since not enough people interested for 25 but it´s not like we steamroll through content
    Since this is end of the Xpac, I imagine that will make a difference in how "some" of the top guilds raid. I believe a good chunk of those top guilds, say the world 100, do alt 25 man heroics so they can have a full compliment of classes available so they can have 7 arc mages or Ele shamans for fights like Spine. I can't imagine those guilds giving up a 25 man raid lock out, just to get the 10 man achievement to keep any 10 man guild on the server from getting it.

    It seems silly for a 25 man guild to go to 10 man heroics for the SOLE PURPOSE of getting the achievement to keep anyone else from getting it. I don't see how it adds any extra prestige, I can't imagine anyone going.."Oh wow! They did 10 and 25 man, they are extra awesome!" I personally view it as the opposite, if the motivating reason a 25 man guild to run 10 man is to get the achievement locked in to them, then I think they are petty.

    Again, doesn't matter on my server, only 1 guild is serious about heroic raiding, they can get it or ignore it no one else is going to care.
    Last edited by Mad_Murdock; 2013-06-28 at 01:44 PM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    What are we calling same speed ? Same week, same month ?
    Well given that most mains of the 25s guild should still be bound to their firstkill id they would have at least till the beginning of the next id which seems fine - at the end of the day we aren't really talking about more than a handful 25 guilds being capable of that anyways.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    At least this post clearly state that 25 is easier. One debate closed.
    Can't tell if serious or just without critical thinking.

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