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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    and that is why he's only appeared in one quest and the start of the rebellion in mists, he is an important character, but blizzard has put him aside so the other characters can develop, Vol'jin, lor'themar, Jaina, Anduin.
    I think there's definitely a circle-jerk so to speak on hating Thrall because he's such a popular character.

    Loved how they added in a little foreshadowing in his chat with Vol'jin before the Darkspear Rebellion. "Take care of my wife and son if anything happens." This is the most interested in and engaged with in a storyline in WoW in a long, long time.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    Tirion is lot less AA than Thrall is horde. WotLK was also not about Tirion's personal story like Cata was about Thrall's. There was no quest chain about Tirion's life nor Tirion's wedding. Tirion has also never been an AA faction leader.[COLOR="red"]
    To be fair there are quite a few Tirion quests in Icecrown and you learned a lot about his personal story. Considering Thrall has like 8 quests in Cata including the intro... And while there has been no quests about his wedding there was a long quest chain about a funeral of one of his men that was quite personal.
    Don't get me wrong, i'm not complaining, i like quests where you learn more about people and his quests were quite good but if you go by the numbers he probably has more presence in WOTLK then Thrall in Cata. And he even kills Arthas (sortof).

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    It still would be if he got defeated even before he reachs Garrosh because he atleast got to participate in it.
    Even if Thrall would get wounded at some point and would do some "Go on without me" scene it would be him heavily involved in the raid. The only way to deny him any progression would be to leave him out completely and that would really be stupid. .
    Last edited by Yriel; 2013-06-30 at 08:34 PM.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    To be fair there are quite a few Tirion quests in Icecrown and you learned a lot about his personal story. Considering Thrall has like 8 quests in Cata including the intro... And while there has been no quests about his wedding there was a long quest chain about a funeral of one of his men that was quite personal.
    Don't get me wrong, i'm not complaining, i like quests where you learn more about people and his quests were quite good.


    Even if Thrall would get wounded at some point and would do some "Go on without me" scene it would be him heavily involved in the raid. The only way to deny him any progression would be to leave him out completely and that would really be stupid. .
    You mean the quest that you have to go to Alex and A'dal? That's not about Tirion at all. It was about Argent Crusade as whole.

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    And again, you show how you are not acknowledging what the writers are giving you. Thrall was integral for a reason to that, because he began at the start of the story meeting Jaina, as he did in the shattering, and when the story came to this stage, Jaina was different, enraged, and it didn't just show how powerful she was in standing against Thrall, but also how there friendship was shattered because of all that had happened.

    You honestly didn't get any of that from the story? I can understand your not invested in character development, but to the point you don't acknowledge how characters develop between each other?
    Thrall didn't need more development, and much of the book is developing Jaina and Kalec (and Baine who is virtually forgotten in the game now. but had enough development and awesome thrown at him for me to seriously consider him as a potential new Warchief). The whole Thrall thing felt like an unnecessary side-story to bring in Thrall for the sake of bringing in Thrall. Yes, I get there's history and Jaina wanted to enlist his help to begin with, but he flat out rejected her pleas for assistance, telling her in no uncertain terms that the Horde is Garrosh's now and he was solely invested in his family and the Earthen Ring. Then, he has this vision and shows up to save the day? That's pretty weak. I get maybe the idea behind seeing what his inaction led to, but riding in as a saviour yet again wasn't the way to do it.

  5. #285
    Pit Lord Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narveid View Post
    See everything as awesome? I can't really agree with that. You can't expect them to think everything is awesome no matter the quality of implementation just because we are attacking Orgrimmar. Would they think it was awesome if there was no real Alliance people even in 5.4? Doubtful. Would they feel its awesome if they only aid the Horde in every endeavor? Doubtful.
    You read it very bad, like Wolftech, but unlike him, I will respond to you. I didn't say they see everything awesome what they do with their Alliance character, goddamn, I understood by ages of complaining threads that they don't. What I was trying to saying is that they see awesome everything happening in the Horde quests/storyline because they see it with another perspective, even when they play a Horde character they pretty delight in killing Horde, happy to do what they felt they had to do with their Alliance characters, even if the situation in the 5.3 didn't absolutely permit such an active mess in Durotar by a foreign force, no matter which excuse could have been found for make the players happy, wouldn't have make sense with the situation, for this the only Alliance presence in Durotar now is two SI7 agents in stealth, and is, again, damn logic.

    Ofcourse the 5.4 will be full of Alliance, but because the Siege will officially begin, with all the mess that is bringing. Now is not, and Garrosh have a frightful army amassed in the very coast of Durotar.

    And meh .. I am a Horde player, I think the attack on Razor Hill is pretty fist pumping .. Sort of lost the feel for Garrosh in 5.1 when he told Lor'themar that "Hey, I sent your people to your death, just because. I COULD have just given you a heads up, would've taken me like 5 seconds, but I cba." The idiocy is absolutely astounding. Looking forward to removing him.
    This is irrelevant, a lot of people despise Garrosh, want to remove him or even kill him, but that is not the point. Garrosh is still the leader of the faction, he still officially hold the power of turning everything in the Horde against you in the 5.3, and in this patch you just feel like that for bringing down Garrosh first you will have to kill an absurd amount of orcs in the way, and the prospective of a siege on your own capital and all the bloodshed in the Barrens don't help at all in lessen this sensation.

    Indeed, my main is a troll, so in my case I have a little more "empathy" with the whole Darkspear Revolution, but for anyone that like orcs and play an Orc as a main, the feeling of being "victorious" with fist raised in the air is extremely lacking, and in general the thought that you will have to shatter to pieces your own faction and invade your own capital just for kill an asshole is not so joyful. This doesn't mean that this is what will happen enterily in the 5.4 (well, I hope so), but indeed this is the feeling that the 5.3 gave, which was not amazing.
    Last edited by Zulkhan; 2013-06-30 at 11:08 PM.
    Darkspear never die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Stop the crazy semi-RP nonsense, and get some fresh air.
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    The Sha of Pride would be the strongest entity in the universe if he had a link with the WoW forums...
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  6. #286
    The Lightbringer turskanaattori's Avatar
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    Because Metzen self insert.

  7. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I get maybe the idea behind seeing what his inaction led to, but riding in as a saviour yet again wasn't the way to do it.
    He was there because Jaina was going to erase Thrall's people by history, men, women and children alike, so was pretty obvious that Thrall would have tried to stop her to do such a thing, because was sincerely out of proportion. Still, Thrall just served as a "gaining time" character, that failed miserably in accomplish what he tried to do, which was to show how the relationship between he and Jaina sank into a blackhole, if Jaina held her hand was for Kalecgos, not Thrall, and even when she gave up her genocidial intent, she remained extremely hostile with him.
    Last edited by Zulkhan; 2013-06-30 at 11:15 PM.
    Darkspear never die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Stop the crazy semi-RP nonsense, and get some fresh air.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror View Post
    The Sha of Pride would be the strongest entity in the universe if he had a link with the WoW forums...
    Quote Originally Posted by Speaknoevil View Post
    You are children on a playground drawing lines in the sand.

  8. #288
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post

    Indeed, my main is a troll, so in my case I have a little more "empathy" with the whole Darkspear Revolution, but for anyone that like orcs and play an Orc as a main, the feeling of being "victiorious" with fist raised in the air is extremely lacking, and in general the thought that you will have to shatter to pieces your own faction and invade your own capital just for kill an asshole is not so joyful. This doesn't mean that this is what will happen enterily in the 5.4 (well, I hope so), but indeed this is the feeling that the 5.3 gave, which was not amazing.
    that sums it up for me. My main and most played alts are orcs. Well I have other alts like trolls, tauren, goblin, worgen and draenei, its orcs I'm most held by in the lore, and my argument all this time has been how garrosh has been dragging the orcs down the road of bad guy just made me hate the character.

    You know what is? The very reason why warcraft appeals to me, when compared to any other mmo game franchise out there, is how wow gives you a faction where unlike any other, you get to play the monsterous races, but its done in such a way they are not monster, but people, who struggle to survive in a world where humans and elves are constantly at war with them. THATS more interesting then any other mmo or rpg theme out there, with its cut and paste 'play the pretty boy/girl races and beat up the bad monsters'.

    Thats what drew me to the horde, and what drew me to the orcs most of all is how orcs, having been a race in any other franchise protrayed as monster, in this, they were people, with a background, developed characters and culture, and even a story of overcoming there dark past in the hope of having a better future..

    That was until garrosh came along and fucked up the major aspect of the orcs story. People have cast aside any logic in this, in the orcs overcoming the dark past and growing as a race, and just opted for the same cut and paste bullshit of having the orcs go WAAARRRGGG and fight with humans yet again. What they had as a unique and really fasciating concept for a story, has devolved into the having the 'noble yet savage' orcs turned into the used and reused stereotypical orcs like in any other rpg setting.

    I love roleplaying an orc, because they have more conflict in themselves and the world around them then any other race, but it also makes for a far more intresting story, when you can roleplay an orc that overcomes his rage and hate for humans and other races, or one that learns wisdom before just being another tool for war.

    So no, I do not get any joy out of this current patch, running around killing orcs, having to storm the capital city I once use to defend constantly (before cata gave flying mounts to vanilla zones), its not fun. For an orc player, this is hitting at everything about there orcs, and leaving the question, what the fuck happens now after garrosh and so many orcs are killed off? Why are they repeating the same formula of 'orcs are bad, we need to take them down', when they were meant to be beyond this?

    And more so, why the hell is this going to teach, what lesson comes from this? That war is bad, even though its unlikely the war will stop. That dealing with dark powers is dangerous? Because we sure didn't know THAT before all this -_-.

    Blizzard systematicly fucked up one of the most unique features in wow that made it appealing to me, and given the thin ice they've been walking on... well, guess we're wait and see won't we...

    ---------- Post added 2013-07-01 at 12:17 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Thrall didn't need more development, and much of the book is developing Jaina and Kalec (and Baine who is virtually forgotten in the game now. but had enough development and awesome thrown at him for me to seriously consider him as a potential new Warchief). The whole Thrall thing felt like an unnecessary side-story to bring in Thrall for the sake of bringing in Thrall. Yes, I get there's history and Jaina wanted to enlist his help to begin with, but he flat out rejected her pleas for assistance, telling her in no uncertain terms that the Horde is Garrosh's now and he was solely invested in his family and the Earthen Ring. Then, he has this vision and shows up to save the day? That's pretty weak. I get maybe the idea behind seeing what his inaction led to, but riding in as a saviour yet again wasn't the way to do it.
    how is it weakness, when as a neutral character, comes in to try and stop her from killing hundreds of his own, risking his own life against her rampage, and even not being strong enough to withstand it for long, he doesn't give up trying. He is even miserable at the end of losing his close friend after all thats happened.

    its not weakness, its just your own bias leaking though in judgement of the character rather then seeing the act of what he did. And thats pretty annoying and weak itself.
    Big thanks to Davillage for awesome signature

  9. #289
    Pit Lord Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    You know what is? The very reason why warcraft appeals to me, when compared to any other mmo game franchise out there, is how wow gives you a faction where unlike any other, you get to play the monsterous races, but its done in such a way they are not monster, but people, who struggle to survive in a world where humans and elves are constantly at war with them. THATS more interesting then any other mmo or rpg theme out there, with its cut and paste 'play the pretty boy/girl races and beat up the bad monsters'.
    "I see a bunch of unconventional champions when I look at them. That's what appealed to me. They're a bunch of berserkers and savages but they're a potential force of good. They have their own set of morals and honor whilst being morally diverse. Why do I always have to play a knight in shining armor to fight as the "good guy"? I can do that in most other fantasy games."

    This comment I read on Youtube sometime ago pretty explained it better than I could.

    (ofcourse was a response to one of these new "true horde" fans saying that people that don't like it should just bring their asses in the Alliance).
    Darkspear never die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Stop the crazy semi-RP nonsense, and get some fresh air.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror View Post
    The Sha of Pride would be the strongest entity in the universe if he had a link with the WoW forums...
    Quote Originally Posted by Speaknoevil View Post
    You are children on a playground drawing lines in the sand.

  10. #290
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    "I see a bunch of unconventional champions when I look at them. That's what appealed to me. They're a bunch of berserkers and savages but they're a potential force of good. They have their own set of morals and honor whilst being morally diverse. Why do I always have to play a knight in shining armor to fight as the "good guy"? I can do that in most other fantasy games."

    This comment I read on Youtube sometime ago pretty explained it better than I could.

    (ofcourse was a response to one of these new "true horde" fans saying that people that don't like it should just bring their asses in the Alliance).
    the "True Horde" concept is something that has been tokened by garrosh (and previously by bladefist) as a means to try and justify orc only rule and dominance.
    The real horde is the one where orcs, trolls, tauren, forsaken, blood elves and goblins all stand together as one. Thats the real horde.
    Big thanks to Davillage for awesome signature

  11. #291
    Pit Lord Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    the "True Horde" concept is something that has been tokened by garrosh (and previously by bladefist) as a means to try and justify orc only rule and dominance.
    The real horde is the one where orcs, trolls, tauren, forsaken, blood elves and goblins all stand together as one. Thats the real horde.
    Indeed but now we have no choices but use it in the worst way because of the abuse that Garrosh is making of this name, and consequently, of any big fan of it, that will use it not in the iconic way the game is doing, but literally. So if I want to make a distinction, I'll just use "New Horde", which has always been the official name of the "real one" (instead of the "true" that is nothing more than restyled Old Horde, so the opposition brought by the term "New Horde" fits pretty well).
    Darkspear never die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Stop the crazy semi-RP nonsense, and get some fresh air.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror View Post
    The Sha of Pride would be the strongest entity in the universe if he had a link with the WoW forums...
    Quote Originally Posted by Speaknoevil View Post
    You are children on a playground drawing lines in the sand.

  12. #292
    I just did not feel compelled or inclined to really care about Thrall in Cata, at all- I felt more for Deathwing than I did most other characters, especially when you have to kill him at the maelstrom.

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by HavocPrime View Post
    Because Metzen gave him a wonderful power called "plot"
    It both heartens and disappoints me when what I was going to say is the very first response.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    You mean the quest that you have to go to Alex and A'dal? That's not about Tirion at all. It was about Argent Crusade as whole.
    It was Tirion sending you to save his soldier and then Tirion sending you to every powerful being in the world to try to save him from his horrible fate and in the end he is incredibly relieved that he found his way into the light.
    I know that this quest is really about some friend of Blizzard who died of cancer but ingame Tirion is heavily involved.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    It was Tirion sending you to save his soldier and then Tirion sending you to every powerful being in the world to try to save him from his horrible fate and in the end he is incredibly relieved that he found his way into the light.
    I know that this quest is really about some friend of Blizzard who died of cancer but ingame Tirion is heavily involved.
    It's still not really about Tirion personally. There was hardly such a quest about Tirion's life in WotLK.

  16. #296
    Bloodsail Admiral Taros's Avatar
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    Performance enhancing drugs.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    that sums it up for me. My main and most played alts are orcs. Well I have other alts like trolls, tauren, goblin, worgen and draenei, its orcs I'm most held by in the lore, and my argument all this time has been how garrosh has been dragging the orcs down the road of bad guy just made me hate the character.

    You know what is? The very reason why warcraft appeals to me, when compared to any other mmo game franchise out there, is how wow gives you a faction where unlike any other, you get to play the monsterous races, but its done in such a way they are not monster, but people, who struggle to survive in a world where humans and elves are constantly at war with them. THATS more interesting then any other mmo or rpg theme out there, with its cut and paste 'play the pretty boy/girl races and beat up the bad monsters'.

    Thats what drew me to the horde, and what drew me to the orcs most of all is how orcs, having been a race in any other franchise protrayed as monster, in this, they were people, with a background, developed characters and culture, and even a story of overcoming there dark past in the hope of having a better future..

    That was until garrosh came along and fucked up the major aspect of the orcs story. People have cast aside any logic in this, in the orcs overcoming the dark past and growing as a race, and just opted for the same cut and paste bullshit of having the orcs go WAAARRRGGG and fight with humans yet again. What they had as a unique and really fasciating concept for a story, has devolved into the having the 'noble yet savage' orcs turned into the used and reused stereotypical orcs like in any other rpg setting.

    I love roleplaying an orc, because they have more conflict in themselves and the world around them then any other race, but it also makes for a far more intresting story, when you can roleplay an orc that overcomes his rage and hate for humans and other races, or one that learns wisdom before just being another tool for war.

    So no, I do not get any joy out of this current patch, running around killing orcs, having to storm the capital city I once use to defend constantly (before cata gave flying mounts to vanilla zones), its not fun. For an orc player, this is hitting at everything about there orcs, and leaving the question, what the fuck happens now after garrosh and so many orcs are killed off? Why are they repeating the same formula of 'orcs are bad, we need to take them down', when they were meant to be beyond this?

    And more so, why the hell is this going to teach, what lesson comes from this? That war is bad, even though its unlikely the war will stop. That dealing with dark powers is dangerous? Because we sure didn't know THAT before all this -_-.

    Blizzard systematicly fucked up one of the most unique features in wow that made it appealing to me, and given the thin ice they've been walking on... well, guess we're wait and see won't we...

    ---------- Post added 2013-07-01 at 12:17 AM ----------



    how is it weakness, when as a neutral character, comes in to try and stop her from killing hundreds of his own, risking his own life against her rampage, and even not being strong enough to withstand it for long, he doesn't give up trying. He is even miserable at the end of losing his close friend after all thats happened.

    its not weakness, its just your own bias leaking though in judgement of the character rather then seeing the act of what he did. And thats pretty annoying and weak itself.
    Your arrogance and patronizing behaviour coupled with your juvenile aggressiveness and 'he is because he is' explanations make me cringe. I don't know if I've ever read posts that have made me felt more sorry for anyone this contradictory and conceited.

  18. #298
    He is horde. The WoW story revolves around the Horde. Therefore lol plot armor makes Thrall badass.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    He was there because Jaina was going to erase Thrall's people by history, men, women and children alike, so was pretty obvious that Thrall would have tried to stop her to do such a thing, because was sincerely out of proportion. Still, Thrall just served as a "gaining time" character, that failed miserably in accomplish what he tried to do, which was to show how the relationship between he and Jaina sank into a blackhole, if Jaina held her hand was for Kalecgos, not Thrall, and even when she gave up her genocidial intent, she remained extremely hostile with him.
    He was there because he had a prophetic vision to be there. That to me is a pretty weak plot device used to bring someone in for the sake of bringing someone in. It could have been done better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    how is it weakness, when as a neutral character, comes in to try and stop her from killing hundreds of his own, risking his own life against her rampage, and even not being strong enough to withstand it for long, he doesn't give up trying. He is even miserable at the end of losing his close friend after all thats happened.

    its not weakness, its just your own bias leaking though in judgement of the character rather then seeing the act of what he did. And thats pretty annoying and weak itself.
    He shows up after a prophetic vision, and holds back without any outside assitance, arguably the most powerful Mage on Azeroth, using the most powerful magical artifact on Azeroth, for "just long enough". You don't think that's weak storytelling, or undermines the magnitude of what Jaina was attempting?

    Edit, to put it into perspective: The same device destroyed Theramore and killed Rhonin, another arguably most powerful Mage on Azeroth, while he actively tried to do the same thing.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2013-07-01 at 08:40 AM.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by arachno-lad View Post
    Your arrogance and patronizing behaviour coupled with your juvenile aggressiveness and 'he is because he is' explanations make me cringe. I don't know if I've ever read posts that have made me felt more sorry for anyone this contradictory and conceited.
    Thats Trassk for you. He also never forgets to remind you that he is 30+yr old and gay so that you know that he is definitely not biased at all.
    The common man is like a worm in the gut of a corpse, trapped inside a prison of cold flesh, helpless and uncaring, unaware even of the inevitability of its own doom.

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