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  1. #101
    I have to agree with Trassk on this, all of thise are the solid and good lore reasons why thrall he is so strong(I have dissagreed many times with trassk on other lore parts)But anyone who know just a bit of lore, and how power works in warcraft have to agree to thralls story is not just " he is strong now, for no reason" ( But then i will not hear you say anything about varian Since it is kind of the same, thrall was born to be blessed with the elements, and varian was chocen by a god :P , all about dat luck and training )
    We all know Thrall's story. But the problem is there, in his story. He is superman (you can explain why if you want), but in the end, he is a superman. Maybe, we only need to throw Thrall in to Sargera's face and end all wow-problems. Doesn't matter why you write a plot to create a super-green-human-elemental-master-off-doom, the problem is that you created that character and now it's too much powerful. Warcraft story had a lot of powerful characters, but all of them died and become Heroes, but I thing Thrall it's the first one to accomplish such power and become a super-star and live (and have a wife and a son too).

  2. #102
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragemv View Post
    I have to agree with Trassk on this, all of thise are the solid and good lore reasons why thrall he is so strong(I have dissagreed many times with trassk on other lore parts)But anyone who know just a bit of lore, and how power works in warcraft have to agree to thralls story is not just " he is strong now, for no reason" ( But then i will not hear you say anything about varian Since it is kind of the same, thrall was born to be blessed with the elements, and varian was chocen by a god :P , all about dat luck and training )
    pretty much. Funny how Thrall who has gone though character progression and reason for him becoming a powerful shaman, people can't seem to understand that, but take Varian who was possessed by a freaking demo god giving him godlike wolf powers, but.. THATS nothing to regard about his character.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-29 at 12:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisaurio View Post
    We all know Thrall's story. But the problem is there, in his story. He is superman (you can explain why if you want), but in the end, he is a superman. Maybe, we only need to throw Thrall in to Sargera's face and end all wow-problems. Doesn't matter why you write a plot to create a super-green-human-elemental-master-off-doom, the problem is that you created that character and now it's too much powerful. Warcraft story had a lot of powerful characters, but all of them died and become Heroes, but I thing Thrall it's the first one to accomplish such power and become a super-star and live (and have a wife and a son too).
    Are you hard of reading?

    Jaina, Varian, Malfurion, Velen, hell, half the dam alliance cast are considered super humans, well the horde barely has any. Even its most powerful druid is out-shun by the alliances super human druid. So you complining about how Thralls got the status of super man, try taking a good long look at the entirely of the warcraft cast.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Belisaurio View Post
    We all know Thrall's story. But the problem is there, in his story. He is superman (you can explain why if you want), but in the end, he is a superman. Maybe, we only need to throw Thrall in to Sargera's face and end all wow-problems. Doesn't matter why you write a plot to create a super-green-human-elemental-master-off-doom, the problem is that you created that character and now it's too much powerful. Warcraft story had a lot of powerful characters, but all of them died and become Heroes, but I thing Thrall it's the first one to accomplish such power and become a super-star and live (and have a wife and a son too).
    What powers does Thrall have that outstrip everyone else so much?

    I'm sorry, I'm not a huge lore buff, but most people seem to spend their time complaining about Dragonsoul, where most of what Thrall did was due to having THE Dragon Soul, infused with the power of 4 Godlike aspects?

    Other than that, what else has he done to warrant superman status? He seems pretty comparable to Malfurion / Jaina from what I've seen, but, as I say, I've not read all the novels.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Jaina, Varian, Malfurion, Velen, hell, half the dam alliance cast are considered super humans, well the horde barely has any. Even its most powerful druid is out-shun by the alliances super human druid. So you complining about how Thralls got the status of super man, try taking a good long look at the entirely of the warcraft cast.
    You did mention only faction leaders, we can do the same for the Horde:
    -Garrosh, strong orc who wield Ysharasj(don't know how to spell it) power,
    -Sylvanas, probably best ranger in Azeroth who is also undead,

    Hmm... What about rest? ... Yeah, you have right.

  5. #105
    Are you hard of reading?

    Jaina, Varian, Malfurion, Velen, hell, half the dam alliance cast are considered super humans, well the horde barely has any. Even its most powerful druid is out-shun by the alliances super human druid. So you complining about how Thralls got the status of super man, try taking a good long look at the entirely of the warcraft cast.
    Yea, I'm hearing.
    Jaina: Powerful mage, the most powerful, of course not. The destruction of Dalaran killed the most powerful mages in Azeroth, Jaina done nothing in wow to be the most powerful. Maybe he is over the mid and leader of Kirin thor to become that awesome mage.
    Velen: Blizzard is hiding him well, he has not an old story (Wc1, Wc2, Wc3, expansions) and they created their lore, so we can assume hi is the most powerful because someone said that before, we are waiting to see his true powers.
    Malfurion: The other one that I'm afraid. It's different to be a powerful druid to become the MOST powerful druid. Care with that character...
    Varian: Most powerful warrior...off course not, one of the most, yes. This is why he is the new Alliance hero and their leader, but he needs a lot more to be "Anduin's shadow".
    Garrosh: Most powerful...orc? In no way, he is a warchief, and nothing more. Off course he is a powerful Orc, but nothing more.
    Tyrande: Most powerful...Nelf? Nobody knows, he is powerful and he is their leader, but nothing more.
    etc
    etc

    I saw all other characters, some of them are powerful, some of them are too powerful (I'm looking at you Malfurion and Velen), but all of others are just hero-status characters.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    You did mention only faction leaders, we can do the same for the Horde:
    -Garrosh, strong orc who wield Ysharasj(don't know how to spell it) power,
    -Sylvanas, probably best ranger in Azeroth who is also undead,
    An orc that's being killed as a raid boss (and loses his axe every time he's involved in a novel, needing to be rescued), and a character who was killed by a 5man dungeon boss.

    If Thralls comparable to them, then that disproves he's superman if anything.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    Other than that, what else has he done to warrant superman status? He seems pretty comparable to Malfurion / Jaina from what I've seen, but, as I say, I've not read all the novels.
    He is called "SuperOrc" because he was the wielder of the Dragon Soul, something that Zuluhed done in the past...

    ... yeah, I don't get it either.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-29 at 12:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    -Garrosh, strong orc who wield Ysharasj(don't know how to spell it) power
    Nothing to do with Garrosh's "power".

    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    -Sylvanas, probably best ranger in Azeroth who is also undead,
    She was killed with a headshot.

  8. #108
    Ah, there's that word. Superman. The problem comes in where Metzen himself has directly compared Thrall to Superman. When you do that, you can't escape the accusations of "Mary Sue" because Superman is the quintessential Mary Sue character. Let's make his "real" name something ending in -el to seal the deal. Son of Durotan, kneel before Zod!

    Let's talk about the Alliance cast for a second. Malfurion and Velen are thousands of years old, and they were already plenty strong in their backstories. They should be like gods by now. Malfurion has a history of being upstaged by orcs, however (LOL, Knaak) and Velen couldn't get any play in his own expansion. Actually Tyrande is just as experienced, and should be incredibly powerful as Elune's avatar in the mortal world, but her role in the storyline is to be humiliatingly defeated and rescued by Illidan, repeatedly.

    Then there's Jaina. Makes no sense why she's so powerful, she was like a sophomore in Mage High when Dalaran was destroyed. But OK, Mages can be born into power so maybe that can be handwaved. It's still pretty dumb that she became Antonidas' default successor, though. Why doesn't Khadgar return from Outland to lead the Kirin Tor? Did he nod off listening to A'dal's windchimes?

    Varian is a non-starter. Needs wolf-god powerup to fight Garrosh, another mortal? He's probably the weakest racial leader, not counting Gallywix. Well OK, I take that back, he could beat High Tinker Mekkatorque. I know, I know, "who?"
    OMG 13:37 - Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Cleave unto me, and I shall grant to thee the blessing of eternal salvation."

    And His disciples said unto Him, "Can we get Kings instead?"

  9. #109
    He was already very powerful in Warcraft 3 as he hurt archimonde. When the horde retreated from the 2nd base in the final mission thrall hit him with lightning and archimonde said "That whelp actually hurt me" So yeah he wasn't exactly weak even then and he has only become powerful threw training.

  10. #110
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    Velen: Blizzard is hiding him well, he has not an old story (Wc1, Wc2, Wc3, expansions) and they created their lore, so we can assume hi is the most powerful because someone said that before, we are waiting to see his true powers.
    If I'm understanding it correctly, our prophets most valuable gift is the ability of precognition. I'm not sure how powerful he is in the classic combat scenario.

    Ifalna Sha'yoko on Twitter and Armory - Occasionally unfaithful to WoW with my Adorable Miqo'te - (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━ ┻

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineus View Post
    Ah, there's that word. Superman. The problem comes in where Metzen himself has directly compared Thrall to Superman. When you do that, you can't escape the accusations of "Mary Sue" because Superman is the quintessential Mary Sue character. Let's make his "real" name something ending in -el to seal the deal. Son of Durotan, kneel before Zod!

    Let's talk about the Alliance cast for a second. Malfurion and Velen are thousands of years old, and they were already plenty strong in their backstories. They should be like gods by now. Malfurion has a history of being upstaged by orcs, however (LOL, Knaak) and Velen couldn't get any play in his own expansion. Actually Tyrande is just as experienced, and should be incredibly powerful as Elune's avatar in the mortal world, but her role in the storyline is to be humiliatingly defeated and rescued by Illidan, repeatedly.

    Then there's Jaina. Makes no sense why she's so powerful, she was like a sophomore in Mage High when Dalaran was destroyed. But OK, Mages can be born into power so maybe that can be handwaved. It's still pretty dumb that she became Antonidas' default successor, though. Why doesn't Khadgar return from Outland to lead the Kirin Tor? Did he nod off listening to A'dal's windchimes?

    Varian is a non-starter. Needs wolf-god powerup to fight Garrosh, another mortal? He's probably the weakest racial leader, not counting Gallywix. Well OK, I take that back, he could beat High Tinker Mekkatorque. I know, I know, "who?"
    No... Varian is really strong. He could fight Garrosh just fine before he was favored by Goldrinn. We don't even know how the fight would go if Jaina wouldn't stop the fight when Varian charge at Thrall. I am really curious what Goldrinn really gave Varian because it seems like Varian didn't really get any power up. Goldrinn just admires him for his ferociousness and ability to tame it and that's it.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    If I'm understanding it correctly, our prophets most valuable gift is the ability of precognition. I'm not sure how powerful he is in the classic combat scenario.
    How would you ever get into combat with him, when he'd see it coming long beforehand and just put all his pieces in place to prevent it? Why do you think he never seems to do anything? It's because he doesn't need to.

  13. #113
    The Lightbringer Vellerix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    How would you ever get into combat with him, when he'd see it coming long beforehand and just put all his pieces in place to prevent it? Why do you think he never seems to do anything? It's because he doesn't need to.
    If he prevents the future, how is it the future anymore? Shit like this always hurts my brain, not sure how it works in WoW though.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by cenkiss View Post
    I wonder why thrall is the prime shaman even though there is nothing to give its powers. It's almost like he was chosen by the elements for some reason.
    Orcs have turned their backs to shamanism.
    Thrall did not even get a huge shaman training. Was he born with it? Was he destined to be?
    He has or better had, many enemies so metzen needed to give him some super powers to him in order to survive. Of course there is no logic applied behind it. As a Warchief he certainly didn't have the time to practice that much to become the most powerful shaman in existence. Anyways a pretty weak character made overpowered, that destroys horde lore from within, puts the horde on shame by not conquering this world and this redeem crap. Well, the mighty rome empire was also destroyed from within. Vol'jin and Thrall both need to die so there is actually a true story for the horde to begin with. With characters that are less superman.
    Of course this isn't game of thrones, though. But just a game.
    Last edited by Tyrannica; 2013-06-29 at 12:48 PM.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Vellerix View Post
    If he prevents the future, how is it the future anymore? Shit like this always hurts my brain, not sure how it works in WoW though.
    He sees several futures, and engineers the most appealing.

  16. #116
    He Is Wise, he got a "Royal" Orcish blood, and he learned to be the World's strongest shaman.

  17. #117
    The way I see it, if the average player had done the right quests, & read the quest-texts/paid attention, then they'd have an idea that he was a pretty good Shaman, I guess, people think he's a 'Mary-Sue' because most players up until Cata just knew him as that Orc leader who sat in the main building in Orgrimmar in quest greens, that an Alliance group would come kill every now & then. I believe they left too much to the books & other sources outside the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    [12:07:45] <+Radux> i think Bibi should post a super passive agressive message in there. like "OH NO LOVE FOR BIBI. I SEE HOW IT IS. YOU'RE WELCOME FOR CREATING THE SITE. CARRY ON."

    OH NO LOVE FOR BIBI. I SEE HOW IT IS. YOU'RE WELCOME FOR CREATING THE SITE. CARRY ON.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    I've been a lore-junkie of all the books, and I still don't know how Thrall got to be the Worlds most powerful Shaman.

    Only times I've seen him use his shamanistic powers prior to the Cataclysm was to ask the elements for advice, to help him out in Lord of the Clans, or to seek further advice in the Shattering (which came after Metzen announcing him being the future "Azeroth's most powerful Shaman")

    So... he's basically from what I've read... just a Shaman. He did nothing amazing nor undergone any amazing transformation journeys at all. The closest thing to the transformation journey was the Nagrand bit in Shattering, and even YOU possibly can't count that as all there is to becoming an amazing all-powerful Shaman of Thrall's level! That journey was literally like reading the "basics" of Shamanism!
    Mvallas, I can never tell whether I dislike you as a poster or not (nothing personal, just opinion wise). Sometimes you say such good things that I agree with and yet other times we're completely off-base xD It feels like you really didn't get the subtle developments in the books if you think there is no grounds nor reason behind Thrall's uniqueness. Stick with me, it's gunna be a long one.

    Lord of the Clans

    So to begin with, you're right in that there is nothing inherently different about Thrall genetically. He isn't of prestigious Shamanistic heritage and he's not blessed by some god. The most significant thing about Thrall is his upbringing. As Ysera notes (See: Twilight of the Aspects), he is not special because of his power (which I'll get to soon) he is distinct because of his ability to relate to people as he has seen many lives; gladiator, shaman, human, orc, leader, slave. Shamanism is a very spiritual path and just as on Earth spirituality often comes from understanding and emotional strength and empathy. It was this unique upbringing that granted him his capability for love and strength and passion and honor and mercy and respect that brought the elements to choose to trust him again. (See: Lord of the Clans)

    There were extremely few Orcs left who knew the ways of the Shaman by Thralls adulthood. Most had severed their ties and it may actually ONLY be Drek'thar who was actively able to commune with them at all. So with regards to that; Thrall IS likely the 2nd most Senior Orc Shaman right now. This doesn't make him powerful but it does make him significant because the elements TRUST him more. They understand him better and vice versa.

    Shattering

    But the reality is that Thrall ISN'T that good a Shaman compared to Tauren or Broken (like Nobundo). After becoming WarChief he let his studies and Shamanistic duties slip into the background and whilst he retained those powers and likely still held the Elements dearly and closely, he just stayed as your average Shaman. It was for this reason that he had to leave in the Shattering and that book marked his "rebirth" as a Shaman and he literally started as a Novice again. That's how that book ends. In The Shattering, Thrall is actually demonstrated to be losing his connection to the elements both because they are becoming irrational and because he isn't really able to communicate with them properly.

    Twilight of the Aspects

    Thrall is not the leader of the Earthen Ring and is actually performing pretty poorly and he's struggling with the basics again because he's filled with emotional turmoil. In this book, his most significant power in this book is -again- his empathy and ability to relate to people and even the almighty, immortal Aspects. Through simply talking to them and helping them relate to one another he gains better understanding of himself and he overcomes those mental blocks which allows him to better understand the elements and his and their place in the order of the world. At the end of the book he takes Deathwing's position in a ritual but they make it very clear that the idea of a mortal holding the position of an Aspect is laughable. He does only what any Shaman could do but he's the one who does it because of his unique ability to empathise. It all stems from his upbringing which is why that time in his life is directly revisited in this book.

    5.2 - Elemental Bonds

    This was quite poorly done but it covers the same emotional journey Thrall had in Twilight only in less detail and with a poorer explanation. It does a good job of showing the connection between the emotions we feel and the elements they to which they relate. If you've ever watched Avatar: The Last Airbender or read into Buddism or Hinduism you'll see a lot of overlap with these themes. Again, it's all about emotions and the spirituality you gain through those emotions. By the end of this quest chain Thrall has BEEN each element and this gives him a new insight into Shamanism. He has more than understood the elements, he has become them and has a new perspective. This makes him a force of reckoning. The reasoning for him being a target is vague but apparently some Old God Dude (Benedictus, I think?) was shown that Thrall is a threat to Deathwing so Deathwing targets Thrall.

    Short Story Before 5.3

    Often overlooked, this story explored the reason that the Aspects and Thrall end up working together in Dragon Soul. He's already on great terms with them and he's got this whole new connection with the elements which is reminiscent of the connection Neltharion had with them at first. The very, very important conclusion of this story is that Thrall admits he cannot be the World Shaman. He can't be an Aspect. The power and responsibility would drive him insane. But in unison with the Earthen Ring, they can combine and the mortal races CAN carry that burden. This is what Alexstrasza meant by "the age of mortals". Thrall is still no more powerful than any other Shaman but he IS an iconic figure head of this ideal. For this reason, he is promoted to Leader of the Earthen Ring.

    Dragon Soul

    Okay he was portrayed poorly again here. It wasn't made clear that Thrall was still very mortal, very typical and very much not the Aspect of Earth. It's not explained why Thrall is randomly carrying the Dragon Soul. Heck, most people won't even know why the Dragons can't use it or it's history. This patch sucked at explaining anything and was rushed and just awful in every regard. It made Thrall look ridiculous and has sullied his awesome character. This is where most people get their hatred of him now.

    Conclusion

    Certain people have very specific personality traits and backgrounds that make them excel at their chosen paths. Jaina is a great Mage because she is clever and creative and calculating. Tirion is a great Paladin because of his immense sense of Justice and Honour. Anduin is a great Priest because of his desire to heal rather than hurt and his capacity for love, forgiveness and empathy is transcendent. This is why Thrall is a great Shaman.

    But Thrall is not god-like. No more than any other Shaman. He is not much greater than the average Shaman. His true strength is that of his character and his innate understanding of others. This unique perspective is what has always allowed him to be the forerunner for new ideals and approaches to Shamanism. It's not that he's a great Shaman because he's powerful. He's powerful because he's a great Shaman. But you're right in that he's NOT as OP as people think he's become.

    tl;dr Thrall isn't that poweful actually, he's just very unique and that makes him a great Shaman and this was explored very carefully and well by Christie Golden but not by Kosak and Watcher.

  19. #119
    Herald of the Titans RicardoZ's Avatar
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    Because he's Metzen's boyfriend.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    He sees several futures, and engineers the most appealing.
    That would be even more powerful than Nozdormu. Velen is hardly that powerful. We don't even know how powerful he is in combat.

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