Thread: Dangers of F2P

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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by SourceOfInfection View Post
    Yeah, don't spend 5 minutes to read something and form your own opinion. Just trust mine.
    It's not an opinion.

    Whatever bull shit people claim F2P games do can be applied to almost any form of gaming.

    That article is a waste of time and narking on F2P/B2P/P2P is too. In short this thread is a waste of effort.

  2. #22
    Herald of the Titans zephid's Avatar
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    F2P is a horrible model for MMO's, it has always been and will always be horrible.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by zephid View Post
    F2P is a horrible model for MMO's, it has always been and will always be horrible.
    Enjoy your subscription based MMOs while they last.
    I mourn the loss of a man of true vision and talent. You were my idol, Mr. Giger.
    You gave faces to my dreams and nightmares and sparked my imagination throughout my entire life. You will be missed.

    Hans Rudolf Giger
    2/5/1940 - 5/12/2014

  4. #24
    The Patient
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    The only game that I couldn't enjoy (still enjoy World of Tanks, simply of it's gameplay without paying for the extras) which is free to play is Jagged Alliance: Online. I laugh at the reviewers that said that it just feels like the old JA... It's a crappy game, in which you need to pay to buy 'upgrade packs' to unlock missions or grind like crazy low lvl missions to get some more crap missions.

    Don't read this if you don't care about Jagged alliance - Since JA2 and Unfinished business, it's been drifting apart. Back in action was an abomination, followed by crappy DLC's and now this scrapped game called JA:O... It is so simplified that I can't even call it JA, corporate bastards.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    It's not an opinion.

    Whatever bull shit people claim F2P games do can be applied to almost any form of gaming.

    That article is a waste of time and narking on F2P/B2P/P2P is too. In short this thread is a waste of effort.
    Eh, I thought it was really interesting. Didn't feel like I wasted time reading it as it gave quite a few insights into mobile monetization.

    Quote Originally Posted by zephid View Post
    F2P is a horrible model for MMO's, it has always been and will always be horrible.
    While it's your opinion and it's subjective as hell, I'm curious as to what F2P MMO's you've played? Because I know many people played some 5-6 years ago and base their opinions off of that experience, while the F2P market has dramatically improved since hten.

  6. #26
    Eh, I thought it was really interesting. Didn't feel like I wasted time reading it as it gave quite a few insights into mobile monetization.
    I think it would be interesting if it was talking in the general sense of gaming instead of focusing on one.

  7. #27
    When F2P game stop charging $500,000 for a bag unlock, then I'll start to tolerate them more often.

    I hate F2P, but I can see why others like it. Down to personal preference here.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by wombinator04 View Post
    When F2P game stop charging $500,000 for a bag unlock, then I'll start to tolerate them more often.

    I hate F2P, but I can see why others like it. Down to personal preference here.
    I would love P2P if it was giving me something for my money instead of renting a game I already bought and charging obscene amounts for their small cash shop when other F2P games offer cheaper things like a $10 mount instead of a $20 or a 6 piece armor set for $5 instead of $10.

    See what I did there?

  9. #29
    Herald of the Titans Suffer the Consequences's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    It's not an opinion.
    "Don't read this, I don't think it's relevant."

    That's an opinion.

    "The Earth is 92,960,000 miles (149,600,000 km) from the sun."

    That's a fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daralii View Post
    Her head is so far up her own asshole that I'm surprised she's not on the list of people she's fucked.
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    Sorry I'm canadian.

  10. #30
    Moderator Sj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombinator04 View Post
    When F2P game stop charging $500,000 for a bag unlock, then I'll start to tolerate them more often.

    I hate F2P, but I can see why others like it. Down to personal preference here.
    That's not the norm in F2P anymore.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by SourceOfInfection View Post
    "Don't read this, I don't think it's relevant."

    That's an opinion.

    "The Earth is 92,960,000 miles (149,600,000 km) from the sun."

    That's a fact.
    Twisting words doesn't make you right.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    I would love P2P if it was giving me something for my money instead of renting a game I already bought and charging obscene amounts for their small cash shop when other F2P games offer cheaper things like a $10 mount instead of a $20 or a 6 piece armor set for $5 instead of $10.

    See what I did there?
    Yeah I saw what you did there. I have my reasons for preferring P2P, and you have your reasons to prefer F2P.

  13. #33

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by wombinator04 View Post
    Yeah I saw what you did there. I have my reasons for preferring P2P, and you have your reasons to prefer F2P.
    It's not that I prefer F2P. It's just P2P doesn't seem to give me my moneys worth while with F2P I know what I'm spending it on.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    It's not that I prefer F2P. It's just P2P doesn't seem to give me my moneys worth while with F2P I know what I'm spending it on.
    Like I said, personal preference. I feel like I get my moneys worth paying a sub. I don't feel like I'm getting my moneys worth in most F2P games. There's only a couple where I think the cash shop is set up properly where It feels like I'm not forced to pay money to enjoy myself.

    Also F2P is a very viable model that has been working great. No one can dismiss it as terrible when it clearly works.
    Last edited by wombinator04; 2013-06-29 at 10:11 PM.

  16. #36
    Brewmaster Kasperio's Avatar
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    Interresting article but I'm not sure I agree with some of the inconclusive conclusions.

    First of all, the article assumes 100% of the market are 'sheep' consumers and the provider is the 'shepherd'. While there certainly are some people who'll throw money at anything to feel powerful, I'd argue that it cannot possibly be even close to 100%. What F2P Cash Shop games provide is an alternative to "This is all yours, both the good and bad" in many cases. Some games allows you to simply unlock the things you're interrested in.

    It's easy to say "F2P cash shop/premium models trick us into buying things we did'nt need" and dismiss them as evil. It's much harder to say "F2P cash shop/premium models allow you the freedom to invest in the games you want and try the others without making a comittment".

    I'm an avid World of Tanks player. I've also dabbled in SWTOR and LoL. Within these three recognized games I've spent a total of $20 give or take on World of Tanks. I'm glad I got to try SWTOR for free since I realized I would not have liked it, had I purchased it. I like League of Legends, too, but not enough to purchase skins or outfits. Yet it remains a most enjoyable game for me. I bought a tank in World of Tanks which I've had over 1.300 matches with (generally a match takes between 4 and 15 minutes, do the math) and I got all those hours of entertainment and fun for that small amount.

    Isn't that what it's all about, anyways? Paying a bit to have some fun? I mean, isn't that what the entire gaming industry is fundamentally based on? I'm sure there are games out there trying to screw you to fork over your money and yeah, I know SWTOR runs that "Pay to avoid the pain" kinda deal, but if I was smart enough not to fall for it - since I did not like the game anyways - I'm sure that the demograph can't possibly be 100%...

    And I'm pretty much a dumb, moronic idiot. If I'm smart enough to follow selective purchases, other people's gotta be smart enough too, right?

    - Kasp
    Enough with bashing eachother, guys.. This community is still young and needs to grow up and show that not everyone are jerks. We're gamers and we enjoy games, don't bash eachother over what games they like or their oppinions, but don't let them bash others either. We need to come together and stand up, as a community, and help eachother out by being respectful and understanding. Please.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    And like I said before these "tactics" are not just used in F2P models it counts for B2P and P2P. Which is why I said it was biased. Try not to dismiss things before thinking.
    Errr ... By definition "coercive monetization" only applies to F2P. Because in normal games you have already paid in full!

    Do you even lif ... I mean did you even read the article?

    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    Look up the company he is part of. Look up the game he is discussing (the one making $2.5 million a day). Look up the strategies he's discussing. The company is a mobile company. The game is a mobile game. The strategies he uses are commonplace in mobile games.

    None of this directly relates to any major Western MMO's, as none of these tactics are directly employed. They use less shady versions of these tactics in some instances, however do not do such overt cash grabs. These tricks can be used that directly in MMO's, however they won't be. P2W is perfectly acceptable in the mobile space, just look at the top grossing games on Android or iOS and you'll see the ones that aren't gambling games (which surprisingly aren't always at the top) all have significant P2W elements in them. P2W is not acceptable in MMO's in the West, as many developers have discussed and as we can see by the lack of exclusive power sold in the cash shops.
    What company he works for is irrelevant. It's fairly clear that the tactics described in the article can be used in any F2P game. It's pays to be on the lookout for them in any kind of F2P game you are playing.

    Personally, I wonder if F2P can survive at all, for the long term (when VC money runs out), without resorting to such tricks.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    What company he works for is irrelevant. It's fairly clear that the tactics described in the article can be used in any F2P game. It's pays to be on the lookout for them in any kind of F2P game you are playing.

    Personally, I wonder if F2P can survive at all, for the long term (when VC money runs out), without resorting to such tricks.
    You do realize that most of the existing F2P transitions had no VC funding...right? Pretty much every MMO that's transitioned has done so on their own dime, and games like Neverwinter launched with funding from Cryptic/their owners rather than from VC's.

    We've got a ton of F2P MMO's that have been running for years without seeing any real drop in quality or content release schedules, so I think we can assume that F2P, while not being a guarantee that a game will run forever, has a track record of at least middle of the road longevity.

    And the company he works for/the games he works on is relevant. You're not going to get a mobile developer who works on one time purchase mobile games speaking about how monetization works in one time purchase AAA console games with any real credibility, because despite the two models being identical in how they function, they're vastly different due to the nature of the platforms it's on. So again, yes, it is quite relevant.

    You honestly sound like you hate the F2P model and found an article that justifies your dislike (even though it's not related to MMO's really and is instead related to the mobile market which is dramatically different) and are trying to make it fit. It's a round peg that you can't fit into a circular hole.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasperio View Post
    Interresting article but I'm not sure I agree with some of the inconclusive conclusions.

    First of all, the article assumes 100% of the market are 'sheep' consumers and the provider is the 'shepherd'. While there certainly are some people who'll throw money at anything to feel powerful, I'd argue that it cannot possibly be even close to 100%. What F2P Cash Shop games provide is an alternative to "This is all yours, both the good and bad" in many cases. Some games allows you to simply unlock the things you're interrested in.
    In the case of F2P, frequently the developers deliberately add the "bad" to make you pay for it to go away.

    In normal games, whatever "bad" there is is there more or less there by mistake.

    It's easy to say "F2P cash shop/premium models trick us into buying things we did'nt need" and dismiss them as evil. It's much harder to say "F2P cash shop/premium models allow you the freedom to invest in the games you want and try the others without making a comittment".

    I'm an avid World of Tanks player. I've also dabbled in SWTOR and LoL. Within these three recognized games I've spent a total of $20 give or take on World of Tanks. I'm glad I got to try SWTOR for free since I realized I would not have liked it, had I purchased it. I like League of Legends, too, but not enough to purchase skins or outfits. Yet it remains a most enjoyable game for me. I bought a tank in World of Tanks which I've had over 1.300 matches with (generally a match takes between 4 and 15 minutes, do the math) and I got all those hours of entertainment and fun for that small amount.

    Isn't that what it's all about, anyways? Paying a bit to have some fun? I mean, isn't that what the entire gaming industry is fundamentally based on? I'm sure there are games out there trying to screw you to fork over your money and yeah, I know SWTOR runs that "Pay to avoid the pain" kinda deal, but if I was smart enough not to fall for it - since I did not like the game anyways - I'm sure that the demograph can't possibly be 100%...

    And I'm pretty much a dumb, moronic idiot. If I'm smart enough to follow selective purchases, other people's gotta be smart enough too, right?

    - Kasp
    "Free to try without commitment" is the upside - we used to have those in the gaming industry in general, they are known as "demos". But as I mentioned, it's pretty easy to fall to the Dark Side - also not everyone is as "vigilant" as you when it comes to money, it doesn't help they used all sorts of subtle tactics to "dull your senses".

    Personally, I question the sustainability of F2P without utilisation of dirty tricks.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-30 at 06:53 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    You do realize that most of the existing F2P transitions had no VC funding...right? Pretty much every MMO that's transitioned has done so on their own dime, and games like Neverwinter launched with funding from Cryptic/their owners rather than from VC's.

    We've got a ton of F2P MMO's that have been running for years without seeing any real drop in quality or content release schedules, so I think we can assume that F2P, while not being a guarantee that a game will run forever, has a track record of at least middle of the road longevity.

    And the company he works for/the games he works on is relevant. You're not going to get a mobile developer who works on one time purchase mobile games speaking about how monetization works in one time purchase AAA console games with any real credibility, because despite the two models being identical in how they function, they're vastly different due to the nature of the platforms it's on. So again, yes, it is quite relevant.

    You honestly sound like you hate the F2P model and found an article that justifies your dislike (even though it's not related to MMO's really and is instead related to the mobile market which is dramatically different) and are trying to make it fit. It's a round peg that you can't fit into a circular hole.
    I'm going to say it upfront, I'm really skeptical. We have seen how it can go so wrong ... with most people not even realising it - which is the sinister part.

    How is it "different due to the nature of the platforms"? I don't see why the tactics he explained in great detail won't work in non-mobile games. Personally I don't care who he is, as long as what he says makes sense.
    Last edited by SodiumChloride; 2013-06-30 at 06:53 AM.

  20. #40
    Pandaren Monk Agent Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    Eh, I thought it was really interesting. Didn't feel like I wasted time reading it as it gave quite a few insights into mobile monetization.



    While it's your opinion and it's subjective as hell, I'm curious as to what F2P MMO's you've played? Because I know many people played some 5-6 years ago and base their opinions off of that experience, while the F2P market has dramatically improved since hten.
    Well I feel the article was handled poorly. Trying to shoehorn a certain category with points that apply more broadly. The focus of the OP and the article are indeed biased as this happens across the board.

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