Thread: Dangers of F2P

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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    Perfect World Entertainments games are almost universally shit, with the games coming from Cryptic (who they own) being the exception. The cash shops aren't great, but you can still almost entirely ignore them. I spent 5 bucks on Champions Online to unlock some back slots but beyond that nothing on Neverwinter/Star Trek Online, and have had a ton of fun playing both.
    I have to stop you here.
    Neverwinter has a really shit F2P model and had even more retarded ideas about the game.

    The game was in "open beta" up till what? 2 weeks ago? even less. Even if it was still BETA, they had micro-transactions in it.
    People got banned for "abusing exploits" even tho many of them were reported ever since the closed beta. I was banned because I was trying to find bugs and report them.
    Even tho the game was in beta, it was 10 euros for a talent tree respec. I had bad talents playing DC so I couldn't get into any group. I picked up bad talents because I wanted to test them and make sure everything was working fine for release. I wasn't able to do that for free and I just got a build that seemed good without actually trying to find out if they work or not because I couldn't afford it.
    Zen for AD exchange? Not even close to possible. Zen was 550-600 AD each when I respecced. 600x550=330.000 AD... with a limit of 16k AD/day (that's what I had at that time for a limit) means 21 days reaching the cap. And it was kind of impossible to reach it and even doing all the dailies took way too long, let's say around 6-7 hours each day for more than 1 month... just to afford a respec.
    Most of the content in Neverwinter is locked behind real money. If YOU don't have to pay, doesn't mean someone else doesn't. The Zen exchange is there but with Zen bought by other people for real money. Runes, profession materials, wards, etc, everything useful was gated behind real money. Maybe not YOUR real money but someone had to pay. Not really F2P in my opinion.

    Currency for it was going at insane prices tho so I can't complain, I got more out of it than I invested, much more but I still look at it from a normal person's pov.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    Ok but feel free to correct me if I am wrong but on the f2p account you must pay the 80k each week for the pass's right???? so yes you are forced to grind to play that content and since raid's/Pvp make up 2/3 of the endgame content you are forced to ether grind and pay the fee or not play at all or the 3rd option is to sub like they want you to do.

    its a illusion that you are playing all content for free when your not. You are play a extended trail and if you want more then that you must grind your face off or give them 15$ a month.
    You aren't forced.
    You have a choice between paying and grinding.

    Do you look at league of legends and go "OH GOD. THEY ARE FORCING ME TO GRIND MILLIONS OF IP TO UNLOCK CHAMPIONS". No. It's OPTIONAL.

    ---------- Post added 2013-07-02 at 10:05 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichifails View Post
    Zen for AD exchange? Not even close to possible. Zen was 550-600 AD each when I respecced. 600x550=330.000 AD... with a limit of 16k AD/day (that's what I had at that time for a limit) means 21 days reaching the cap. And it was kind of impossible to reach it and even doing all the dailies took way too long, let's say around 6-7 hours each day for more than 1 month... just to afford a respec.
    You need to update your info. Zen costs are 300 AD now. So it's about 150,000 AD. And the limit is pretty pointless as you can get as many refined as you want via the auction house.
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  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Bardarian View Post
    You aren't forced.
    You have a choice between paying and grinding.

    Do you look at league of legends and go "OH GOD. THEY ARE FORCING ME TO GRIND MILLIONS OF IP TO UNLOCK CHAMPIONS". No. It's OPTIONAL.
    But in legion of Legends you can play all content for free the only thing you have to pay for is if you want a hero and sometimes they even give some heroes away.

    In SWTOR the only content that is free is questing if you want to do more then a few dungeons it cost's you in ether cash or ingame currency. At max level if you want to Raid/Pvp/Spam Dungeons you must pay ether in cash or ingame currency Once again the illuison is that you are playing for free when your not.

    there is many other MMO's that do the grind/pay choice a hell of a lot better.

    Perfect Example is the newly released Neverwinter. All ingame content is free even the upcoming race/class will be free but if you want more bank/bag space you ether pay the 2$ or grind AD and buy it and its forever unlocked on your character.

    In Swtor you must ether grind each and every week you want to Pvp/Raid/Dungeon Spam or give them 15$ and that is the point they want you to hate the grind so bad you say fuck it and sub and if you decide not to sub they did not lose any money if you quit. To be clear once more its the illusion that you are playing for free when all you are doing is playing a extended trial.

    Also to add in SWTOR if you want to play past level 50 you must ether give them 20$ as a f2p player "and still be locked out of most endgame content" or 10$ as a subbed player.
    Last edited by Jtbrig7390; 2013-07-02 at 10:13 AM.
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  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    But In legion of Legends you can play all content for free the only thing you have to pay for is if you want a hero and sometimes they even some heroes away.
    In league, heroes ARE content.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    In SWTOR the only content that is free is questing if you want to do more then a few dungeons it cost's you in ether cash or ingame currency. At max level if you want to Raid/Pvp/Spam Dungeons you must pay ether in cash or ingame currency Once again the illuison is that you are playing for free when your not.
    You can run as many dungeons as you want in swtor. It's your rolls on loot that are limited, not the runs themselves. If paying in game currency makes a game not "free" then having to repair your gear in Rift in order to keep raiding make's it not "free".
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    there is many other MMO's that do the grind/pay choice a hell of a lot better.
    As it should be. Getting stuff for free should cost time. That's how F2P is meant to work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    In Swtor you must ether grind each and every week you want to Pvp/Raid/Dungeon Spam or give them 15$ and that is the point they want you to hate the grind so bad you say fuck it and sub and if you decide not to sub they did not lose any money if you quit. To be clear once more its the illusion that you are playing for free when all you are doing is playing a extended trial.
    The thing is, grinding in PVP gives you credits, paying for itself (same with space missions). You can easily spend more than 80k a week on repairs, so why the complaints about a few dailies to get the raid content for free? And if you don't want to grind, you can pay (which again, is how F2P works).

    It's not an illusion. It's a viable way to play swtor. You keep saying that but offering no new evidence for it. I have already explained to you that it's very easy to fully unlock you account and play whatever you want, weekly. VERY EASY. NOT AN ILLUSION.
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  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Bardarian View Post
    It's not an illusion. It's a viable way to play swtor. You keep saying that but offering no new evidence for it. I have already explained to you that it's very easy to fully unlock you account and play whatever you want, weekly. VERY EASY. NOT AN ILLUSION.
    Having to do it weekly is not fully unlocking anything its a temp unlock.

    If I pay 2$ and get 30 bank slots in Neverwinter I will forever have that on that character. If I spend the credits in SWTOR to raid/pvp I lose the right to do those things at the end of the week and I have to repeat it again.

    Sorry but the system SWTOR has is SHIT when many other MMO's prove you can have a good f2p system and still make money. Hell EA own's TSW and it has a better system then SWTOR.
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  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    Sorry but the system SWTOR has is SHIT when many other MMO's prove you can have a good f2p system and still make money. Hell EA own's TSW and it has a better system then SWTOR.
    I said that like, 2 pages ago.

    What I take issue with is the idea that people are being forced into something.
    In p2p you actually have to pay to log on. In f2p, you are given a choice between grinding and paying. Some games have less grinding than others. But it's always a choice. You may dislike your choices, but they still are choices. You aren't forced into anything. If your only option was to grind in a F2P game because you don't have money, you wouldn't have the ability to play a P2P game at all.
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  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    I'd argue that the prices that WoW charges for its character services, which are in addition to the already "premium" subscription that they charge, is manipulative and designed to suck peoples wallets dry nowadays. At the time they were implemented, maybe they justified that price but they haven't justified that price for quite some time. Couple that with the giant account services sale right before the announcement of virtual realms and that's kinda shady.

    Which F2P MMO's have become manipulative and tried to subtly suck peoples wallets dry with super sketchy features? Again, the two worst examples for current Western F2P MMO's (SWTOR and EQ2) don't fall into the category at all.



    Ah, but you were saying it was because of "haters" like you. It's not because of "haters" at all, it's because the PC/console market is far more established and while they're not super educated about the gaming industry on the whole, are still far more discriminating in their tastes compared to the average mobile gamer.

    There are already established modes of play, established models, acceptable practices. Straying wildly from those sets off red flags like a motherfucker. Those don't exist in the mobile/social space. That's new territory which is why you see a lot of similarities between mobile and the early gaming industry (around the early Atari days). We'll see mobile games improve over time as well as mobile gamers become more familiar with the games they play and the practices in them and are exposed to more games, and more games of high(er) quality.
    Well, the charges on character services are to discourage you from altering your toon again and again. Transfers are less a problem with virtual realms, so you can't say Blizzard is squeezing you on that end - although the discount before the virtual realm announcement wasn't very nice.

    In general, when people hate on F2P, they are hating on the unethical practices and it's impact on the "purity" of the game. As long as you don't pull any of that sort of BS, I don't care what scheme you fund your game with - WoW's Blizzard store is a very slippery slope IMHO.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Ichifails View Post
    If YOU don't have to pay, doesn't mean someone else doesn't. The Zen exchange is there but with Zen bought by other people for real money. Runes, profession materials, wards, etc, everything useful was gated behind real money. Maybe not YOUR real money but someone had to pay. Not really F2P in my opinion.
    I think this is certainly true for Neverwinter. Content is gated behind money... Not my money, but the money of some other poor sod who doesn't know how to control their spending.

    Another thing Neverwinter does is: Take rewards (in a small but meaningful way). The nightmare lockboxes are epic items. When I first got one, I thought it to be a promotional fun thing (meaning: Not actually epic quality; just a funny promotional thingy), so I pretty much skipped to the fine print immediately: Requires a Nightmare Key to unlock. At that moment, I knew that I didn't actually gét a reward, and I was fine with that (after all; I was expecting some promotional silliness). But then I noticed that zone chat was full of hopeful people asking about how they could get those keys. Partymembers who enthusiastically mentioned how they were 'saving up' AD for keys. Friends who whispered me asking what to do, and if investing money was worth it (my answer: 'Character Slots is the only investment worth it, and it's pretty cheap in comparison'). But all those people want to open those lockboxes (I myself am planning on putting them on auction when I get 100, or possibly spending AD on keys when I've got my full t2 from auctions and runs).
    And I know that people get duped into paying for all this stuff. Paying for AD, paying for keys... And the fact that I participate in auctioning means that I am contributing to the people being duped. Sure; I play casually, so I've got plenty of AD and don't feel like I have a need for epic mounts, epic pets and epic bags until I get to a point where I've got so many AD that I might as well spend them on trivial stuff. But I know that by gathering AD from daily prayers and auctions alone, I am feeding the machine, and I am profiting off of people who DO spend real money.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    you must grind your face off or give them 15$ a month.
    When you make comments like this I can't take your point seriously. You're taking the extremist approach about something you're unfamiliar with. 80k (or less depending on server/time) is not a lot of money. You're not "grinding your face off." I don't think you even understand what the word grind actually means. Your entire argument rests on it being a "face melting grind," but it's not that. I just came back SWTOR after not playing for over a year and my level 35 Bounty Hunter I just hopped into would be able to afford that just by doing my normal playing. No extra effort required, just through my normal play. That is without trying to game the system or put any thought into it what-so-ever.

    Don't get me wrong, I would 100% agree with you if that was the case. I have played tons and tons of Korean MMO's over my life. My friends and I actually made a sport of it in middle school. I'm very familiar with F2P games that do require you to grind endlessly to earn the same right as people who pay real money. SWTOR is not one of those games and is literally the worst example to use. There are so many better games you could use as an example for exploiting people by grinding. Of any MMO that allows F2P players to purchase unlocks with in game currency that I've played over my entire life, I think SWTOR has done it as one of the best.

    ________

    To the thread at hand. I think DCUO has one of the best F2P systems I've ever played in. So far I've only purchased DLC and enjoy the game immensely. It uses a system very similar to TSW where you get the entire base game (release) for free, and they only charge you for DLC and cosmetic items on the store. After playing the game for a while now I've actually come to enjoy the DLC style of content. They still have normal content patches that everyone has access to, and the DLC adds new weapons, powers, and game modes. Logging in and just doing world PvP, a few dungeons, or maybe even a raid. Which their F2P system fully supports.
    Last edited by noahjam326; 2013-07-02 at 04:55 PM.

  10. #110
    Dreadlord Vexies's Avatar
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    I will never understand the hysteria where F2P model is concerned. I used to be in that camp, happily throwing away 15 dollars a month for 5 years to WoW and SWTOR when it was a sub game and then I played GW2. Yes, I know its not F2P its B2P but none the less it was a awakening as I realized.. huh, I can get a great game and not have to give them 15 bucks a month? I never have nor will I ever pay a sub fee again and it opened my world to a host of fantastic new games.

    I love that the industry is moving in this direction. In sub fee games you pay for the illusion of content. However what you are really paying for is the "right" to grind endlessly for that content. You dont actually (or rarely I should say) get anything that you dont have to grind for for that 15 bucks at all. Shiny new mount? grind gold or bosses for months on end and pray to the RNG gods for a lucky drop.

    F2P or even B2P with cash shop frees you to buy what you want and pay for what you want and can be FAR more economical. I just cant see the value for the expense of a sub model anymore. You just dont get enough compared to other models. Sure everyone loves to trot out the examples of horrible F2P systems. Sadly SWTOR only became even more of a joke and a lesson with its F2P model but they are few and far. Over all the smart consumer will enjoy a much better experience for far less with this new business model. I look forward to seeing it progress.
    Last edited by Vexies; 2013-07-02 at 04:58 PM.

  11. #111
    Nice article, but it is not new that F2P games use tricks to make people pay. I'm not a big fan of F2P games because of that.

  12. #112
    Most of the content in Neverwinter is locked behind real money.
    Skill resets and max level enchants (which you can get in game) is not "most content"

    I agree NW is overpriced but they don't lock content behind the cash shop. Don't over exaggerate because people did an exploit and you blame the business model for it.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    Skill resets and max level enchants (which you can get in game) is not "most content"

    I agree NW is overpriced but they don't lock content behind the cash shop. Don't over exaggerate because people did an exploit and you blame the business model for it.
    ^

    In fact, there is no content locked behind the cash shop in neverwinter online.
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  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakshamash View Post
    Usually that business model have hidden cost.
    What are the hidden costs though? You keep referring to the general, nebulous things without actually providing any examples from recent Western F2P MMO's.

  15. #115
    Moderator Sj's Avatar
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    The fact that most people ignore about F2P games and the money you spend on them, is that spending real money on a F2P game is elective. It's not mandatory. You are not being tricked into giving your credit card info. You are not being held at gunpoint and made to pay money.

    What is happening when you spend money on a F2P game is that you come to a point where you find something worth spending money on, a.k.a. giving money to a game that you feel comfortable contributing to. Even if you are paying money for a "shortcut" or "premium content," by paying money you are basically saying "hey this game is good enough to spend money on."

    (Which is the entire point of the business model.)

    Any inability to refrain from spending money or any other shortcomings that may "make" you spend more money than you think you should for a F2P game is no fault of the game or the business model; that hang-up is completely on the gamer.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    What are the hidden costs though? You keep referring to the general, nebulous things without actually providing any examples from recent Western F2P MMO's.
    This is their most effective, and bad, argument against F2P.
    "Something" is "bad" or "might be bad".

    I came across this in Firefall recently. Someone said that the F2P model was "terrible" or something. When all the content in the game is free. All the frames can be easily unlocked through playing. And the cosmetics are about 20 cents per paint job or something.

    Nothing specifically bad was said about it... Since there is nothing wrong with the model.

    And that's how most people argue against F2P.
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  17. #117
    And that's how most people argue against F2P.
    It's nothing more then a hype train people follow.

  18. #118
    Titan Frozenbeef's Avatar
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    I'm not a fan of f2p..i much prefer p2p simply because 6-10 squid is a worthwhile cost for not being bombarded with restrictions/ adverts to buy gear,items,mounts etc.

    However the problem is even if you pay the sub costs you still get adverts flashing in your face everytime you log in -.- Then there are some f2p that are WAY too restrictive (swtor having to pay to hide helm etc)

    I personally can't stand anything in a game that asks for real money, it makes it feel like farmville asking for cash i want them to be separate -.- With f2p it just feels like i have to be overly cautious as at any moment i could get the urge to buy stuff and go on a spending spree i don't have that worry with p2p..
    Last edited by Frozenbeef; 2013-07-02 at 10:40 PM.

  19. #119
    However the problem is even if you pay the sub costs you still get adverts flashing in your face everytime you log in -.-
    Then your own judgement against F2P becomes invalid.

    You should have a more specific game to have beef with not the specific model.

    I personally can't stand anything in a game that asks for real money, it makes it feel like farmville asking for cash i want them to be separate -.- With f2p it just feels like i have to be overly cautious as at any moment i could get the urge to buy stuff and go on a spending spree i don't have that worry with p2p..
    You contradict yourself.
    Last edited by zito; 2013-07-02 at 10:42 PM.

  20. #120
    Titan Frozenbeef's Avatar
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    You contradict yourself.
    How so. I said i don't like things in a game that asks for real money simply because it feels like they will play any trick, then i say there is also the problem of will power.

    I can't stand people trying to sell me stuff for the reason that I'm not able to resist it usually.
    Last edited by Frozenbeef; 2013-07-02 at 10:47 PM.

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