What shape are Ret and DK's in for PvP now and 5.4?

[Auberdeen]

Thread pertains to those that have both PvP Ret Pallys and DKs geared in Tyrann.

Curious as to what kind of shape Ret Pallys and all specs of DK's are in as for PvP(random BG's, 2's, 3's) in terms of survivability, burst, mobility, QoL utility and just over all enjoyability of the class.

The reason I wanted to start this thread is because I have been PvP'ing with my Arms warr and Frost Mage for so long(vanilla for Mage and BC for Warr) and Warriors have really got it kind of rough since after 5.0, and my mage is finally getting a bit stale. I thought about going Fury but it really seems like a waste of time after reading forums, and Fire is fun but just isn't as enjoyable as Frost.

So, how is Ret doing atm? I seem to chew right through them on my warrior in most cases, but every once in a while I just get eaten alive.

How are FDK's and UH DK's doing?

Thanks!

[Gimlix]

You need to play the class you enjoy most not the class that can do the best stuff.
I play hunter, in good and bad times, i don't mind if i get nerfed, heck if i get nerfed to the ground tomorrow, i will still play.

[Hunterpower]

You need to play the class you enjoy most not the class that can do the best stuff.
I play hunter, in good and bad times, i don't mind if i get nerfed, heck if i get nerfed to the ground tomorrow, i will still play.

I'm exactly like this person, but if you really must know...
DK- good, bulkiest melee dps right now with blood pres + conversion, great spread damage and pressure, not much changed for 5.4 except free IBT
ret- overly strong on live, bordering overpowered next patch. They're squishy, but have insaaane heals and burst, if you don't cc a ret with cooldowns, you die.

[Deleted]

I'm exactly like this person, but if you really must know...
DK- good, bulkiest melee dps right now with blood pres + conversion, great spread damage and pressure, not much changed for 5.4 except free IBT
ret- overly strong on live, bordering overpowered next patch. They're squishy, but have insaaane heals and burst, if you don't cc a ret with cooldowns, you die.

While i dont play ret, Yay for more buffs to em, from what i know they hasnt been "op" since wotlk

[Deleted]

You need to play the class you enjoy most not the class that can do the best stuff.

That's you, but not everyone is like that.
_______________________________________________

Anyway, if 1on1 balance would be perfect in this game, THEN I personally would play the class I enjoy the most. But because that is not the case, I usually have to make some sort of compromise between what I enjoy, what's FOTM and what historically has mostly been good in PvP.

- WoW does not offer good PvP balance, therefor some people cannot enjoy the class they normally would enjoy.
- Fine, then lets just choose the class that is the most powerful, if the game is not balanced, there must be one, right? Nope, even the most powerful class has counters.
- Fine, then lets just choose the class that has the least counters and that is considered a counter for most others? Nope, it's situational... whether it is a duel, world PvP, 2v2, 3v3 etc.
- Fine, then lets just choose the one class that, on average, performs the best? Yeh right, but nope. This may work, but it's only valid for a single patch, maybe for even less time, due to hot fixes and gear scaling, and the next patch may and probably will change everything anyway.

SO WHAT THE FUKK? What the hell is going on in this game?!

Answer: regarding class balance there's only one thing that's certain, and that's permanent gross balance instability without ever crossing the point where things would be balanced.

I would be happy with an unbalanced but stable situation, but we can't have that here. It's never balanced and never stable, so if you're some perfectionist or extreme min / maxer you'll never be happy with this game, unless you have the time and skill to play all 11 classes at max gear level.

[Tyrannica]

Thread pertains to those that have both PvP Ret Pallys and DKs geared in Tyrann.

Curious as to what kind of shape Ret Pallys and all specs of DK's are in as for PvP(random BG's, 2's, 3's) in terms of survivability, burst, mobility, QoL utility and just over all enjoyability of the class.

The reason I wanted to start this thread is because I have been PvP'ing with my Arms warr and Frost Mage for so long(vanilla for Mage and BC for Warr) and Warriors have really got it kind of rough since after 5.0, and my mage is finally getting a bit stale. I thought about going Fury but it really seems like a waste of time after reading forums, and Fire is fun but just isn't as enjoyable as Frost.

So, how is Ret doing atm? I seem to chew right through them on my warrior in most cases, but every once in a while I just get eaten alive.

How are FDK's and UH DK's doing?

Thanks!

Just for live:

Why bother with a ret, when you are looking for the best? Dks are many times better than rets, quite a big margin.

you play 2 specs, unholy and frost, while as a pala you only have 1 choice for dd, it might get old more quickly.

dks are perhaps the strongest melee in bgs/rbgs, and even if not, they have a wildcard with their grip.

Arena though...is more complicated, i wouldn't bother with dk or ret pala, something ranged would fit better, its all about the cc.

5.4 the ret has potential to get very overpowered, but depends, if all the ptr changes go live or not.

[Beefkow]

Unholys are actually not doing so well atm, poor dmg and even their necrotics aren't doing so well.

Frost is still face roll as usual.

Ret pallys are looking decent live and 5.4, ill probably just play my ret and stop playing warrior and dk.

[Korgoth]

You need to play the class you enjoy most not the class that can do the best stuff.
I play hunter, in good and bad times, i don't mind if i get nerfed, heck if i get nerfed to the ground tomorrow, i will still play.

Which is fine if all you try to achieve is random battlegrounds. For those who want to actually compete, you reroll, because people are not idiots and will not play with you anymore on a shitty class.

[Auberdeen]

That's you, but not everyone is like that.
_______________________________________________

Anyway, if 1on1 balance would be perfect in this game, THEN I personally would play the class I enjoy the most. But because that is not the case, I usually have to make some sort of compromise between what I enjoy, what's FOTM and what historically has mostly been good in PvP.

- WoW does not offer good PvP balance, therefor some people cannot enjoy the class they normally would enjoy.
- Fine, then lets just choose the class that is the most powerful, if the game is not balanced, there must be one, right? Nope, even the most powerful class has counters.
- Fine, then lets just choose the class that has the least counters and that is considered a counter for most others? Nope, it's situational... whether it is a duel, world PvP, 2v2, 3v3 etc.
- Fine, then lets just choose the one class that, on average, performs the best? Yeh right, but nope. This may work, but it's only valid for a single patch, maybe for even less time, due to hot fixes and gear scaling, and the next patch may and probably will change everything anyway.

SO WHAT THE FUKK? What the hell is going on in this game?!

Answer: regarding class balance there's only one thing that's certain, and that's permanent gross balance instability without ever crossing the point where things would be balanced.

I would be happy with an unbalanced but stable situation, but we can't have that here. It's never balanced and never stable, so if you're some perfectionist or extreme min / maxer you'll never be happy with this game, unless you have the time and skill to play all 11 classes at max gear level.

what the hell does that have anything to do with what my thread is about?

The fact that you're commenting on anothers opinion without even placing out a thought or response into the subject matter of the titled disturbs me to what type of person you are irl.

[Deleted]

Rets are as bad still. Untill they give rets some self anti-fear cd other than bubble or make them harder to lock while wings are up (maybe make them immune to disarms for the duration), rets will still be bad. As a ww monk, ret is my easiest melee class to go up against as I counter EVERYTHING they do and I have plenty of self heals myself to prevent them from winning by attrition.

[Nyaldee]

Rets are in a great shape but limited to playing with hunter, still good once are a great asset to hunt/disc in 3v3. They're very attention intensive and macro intensive.
DKs are solid too and can play with hunters as well as with lock or even boomies, damage is sick and utility is there. Macro intensive too and pet often dies to random 2 button press or gets stack in roots.

Atm both classes are solid but mostly depend on sinergy with hunters so it's kind of hard to predict what'll happen in next season with BM nerfs. I'll bet though that DKs will be just fine with survival hunters as partners since they spread aids pretty hard too.

---------- Post added 2013-07-01 at 06:03 AM ----------

As a ww monk, ret is my easiest melee class to go up against as I counter EVERYTHING they do and I have plenty of self heals myself to prevent them from winning by attrition.

Seriously man nobody cares how your WW counters ret becouse OP is asking about specs perfomance in GROUP setting. And in primary competitive setting (3v3) rets are miles ahead of WWs and loads of other specs, in RBG setting both ret and ww aren't needed but that's a different story.

[Yvaelle]

Ret / Hunter / Disc is arguably the strongest comp in high end right now, their burst is enormous and their support for one another is excellent. I anticipate it continuing to be strong(est?) next season as well.

DKs are still an almost mandatory pick for an RBG team, but for 3's their strongest comp is, I think... DK / Hunter / Disc - not that it isn't good as well, but Ret / Hunter / Disc should trump it every time.

Both are very viable picks though, if you are trying to choose between them, I'd honestly go with the one you personally prefer the most, with the possible consideration that Ret may end up being (one of?) the best 3's specs next season. I anticipate great and terrible things from them.

[Tyrean]

Speaking from a Dk perspective, you can't play frost in arena. It is too squishy and you lose too much damage sitting in blood presence which is what you have to do in order to have a chance to live. You spend most of your time pillar humping and trying to live than you do actually playing. Frost has a sever lack of CC and peels for teammates and is very capable of keeling over from 100-0 in a 4 second CC. They do well in RBG settings on the meters, but that is mainly because of disease damage. Actual damage in RBG is lower because DKs get killed a lot because of their squishiness, requirements to be on front lines and vulnerable and the fact that they are normally target callers which puts them high on kill priority.

Unholy is a lot better in arena, but you have to manage your pet well as people will try to kill it all the time. You also still have the same CC problems that frost has, just you don't lose much damage by sitting in blood presence. Frost has burst potential, but unholy really does not. Your "burst" comes in the form of necrotic strike which means you have to rely on partners to actually land kills. You need to pair with a high burst class and time together so your necro essentially guarantees a kill.

Honestly, if you have the option to roll any caster they are all better than a DK. Yes, DK has some very overpowering damage output, but in the end once you get into the 2k range you need way more than just damage. You have to have strong CC and good peeling ability for your team and the ability to duck under pillars at a moments notice. Any melee is at a severe disadvantage in arena and they bring nothing to the table that a ranged does not. This is why it is dominated by warlocks, ele shamans, hunters, mages, boomkins and shadowpriests right now.

[Tyrannica]

Speaking from a Dk perspective, you can't play frost in arena. It is too squishy and you lose too much damage sitting in blood presence which is what you have to do in order to have a chance to live. You spend most of your time pillar humping and trying to live than you do actually playing. Frost has a sever lack of CC and peels for teammates and is very capable of keeling over from 100-0 in a 4 second CC. They do well in RBG settings on the meters, but that is mainly because of disease damage. Actual damage in RBG is lower because DKs get killed a lot because of their squishiness, requirements to be on front lines and vulnerable and the fact that they are normally target callers which puts them high on kill priority.

Unholy is a lot better in arena, but you have to manage your pet well as people will try to kill it all the time. You also still have the same CC problems that frost has, just you don't lose much damage by sitting in blood presence. Frost has burst potential, but unholy really does not. Your "burst" comes in the form of necrotic strike which means you have to rely on partners to actually land kills. You need to pair with a high burst class and time together so your necro essentially guarantees a kill.

Honestly, if you have the option to roll any caster they are all better than a DK. Yes, DK has some very overpowering damage output, but in the end once you get into the 2k range you need way more than just damage. You have to have strong CC and good peeling ability for your team and the ability to duck under pillars at a moments notice. Any melee is at a severe disadvantage in arena and they bring nothing to the table that a ranged does not. This is why it is dominated by warlocks, ele shamans, hunters, mages, boomkins and shadowpriests right now.

qft

Actually most melees are having problems in pvp. And in pve they are often only required as tanks, not that it matters much here, but i guess many people are playing pve and pvp. Its world of rangecraft, they got better and more cc and have an easier time to burst someone, too. Shiny 2hand weapons and plate armor are just for show, sadly.

[Yvaelle]

qft

Actually most melees are having problems in pvp.

Rets, Rogues, DKs, Enh, Feral and Windwalker are all very viable right now. Combine any of them with a hunter and disc and you have a rank 1 capable comp - while hunter/disc/caster generally doesn't work.

And in pve they are often only required as tanks, not that it matters much here, but i guess many people are playing pve and pvp. Its world of rangecraft, they got better and more cc

Rogues, Ferals and Windwalkers have tons of CC - more than the Spriest/Balance/Elemental at the least.

and have an easier time to burst someone, too.

I don't know, melee can't burst while not in melee range, but casters can't burst when they are in melee range. Plus many casters have things you can dispel to deny their burst as well (Frost Bomb / Deep Freeze, Devouring Plague, etc).

Shiny 2hand weapons and plate armor are just for show, sadly.

Shiny 2 hand weapons aren't for show, but they obviously can't be allowed to out-damage the other classes just because your sword is bigger than a rogues pair of daggers or a wizards finger-wiggling ability. Plate armor is definitely not for show, my DK takes a third less damage than my spriest when getting hit by melee classes, there is nothing illusory about that: and that's before the seven times higher avoidance plate melee classes have compared to casters (who actually have 0% after a dash of expertise, or while casting).

Rets and DKs are doing fine right now in Arenas / RBGs respectively, it's just Warriors for plate wearing DPS who aren't doing amazing right now - and that's because they got over-nerfed after the ridiculous-ness of 5.0->5.2: sorry if you didn't cash in during that time. If it makes you feel better my warrior's spirit still whines at me for not having leveled her at the start of MoP when I knew they were way too good.

[facerollin]

Rets are fotm, DK's are weak - mainly because AMS is a joke now and wizards are rampant.

Play a ret, enjoy having fear next patch too.

[Tyrean]

I think you got it a little wrong Yvaelle, it is not the melee that is fine, it is the hunter that is carrying them....

[Yvaelle]

I think you got it a little wrong Yvaelle, it is not the melee that is fine, it is the hunter that is carrying them....

Hunters are definitely a recurring motif with successful melee 3's comps right now, but you don't see hunter+caster, it's always hunter+melee - that to me says melee aren't so bad, they just may not synergize with casters as well as they do with other physical damage dealers: one of which has to be able to control the enemy healer during burst cycles, which is far easier for ranged classes: leaving only one physical (synergy) + ranged (can burst while being on the healer) -> hunters.

There is a lot of anticipation of Enh + Ret + Disc or Enh + Ret + Rdruid next patch, that's a double melee comp: usually that doesn't happen unless the melee do so much damage they don't need to cc the enemy healer to win.

[Bafooga]

Rets are as bad still. Untill they give rets some self anti-fear cd other than bubble or make them harder to lock while wings are up (maybe make them immune to disarms for the duration), rets will still be bad. As a ww monk, ret is my easiest melee class to go up against as I counter EVERYTHING they do and I have plenty of self heals myself to prevent them from winning by attrition.

that's because MW monks are perfect against most melee classes...

[Nyaldee]

Honestly i don't think DK's are as bad as ppls make them out to be - dk/hunt/heal, dk/affli/heal are both very strong. Thing is that there's insane difference between DK's preassure wise that comes from runes management, dark sim, pet management and cd usage. I've seen only couple DKs this season preventing traps with stuns/grips/pet, using pet 50% dmg reduction and healing it with macro, stealing cc with darksim from different arena targets and chaining cds to become unpeelable when going for kill and properly combining dmg with cc - those DKs were well past 2.4K on my BG. Pretty much rest DKs i've seen are stuck below 2K raiting and all the do is tunel dmg not even utilizing properly their set bonus allowing double grip. I've yet so see such a difference in same class perfomance this season.

Also i would place my bet on DKs becoming much stronger next season becouse of few factors: affliction gameplay changing (blue post about rebalancing dmg between MG and dots), double pvp trinket dmg reduction reducing burst factor in arenas, BM and feral nerfs and ofc plague leech rework allowing extra 2 necrotic aplications.