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  1. #1

    Advice badly needed. Our current raiding situation is ruining raiding and WoW for me.

    We used to be a 10m guild, we've been a 25m guild for a spell now.

    Before, and after we swapped, battling with the same boss quite long enough or having progression issues or player performance issues quite long enough might begin to murder raiding for me. Anyway as a 10m guild we dependably devised a workable plan to succeed, and proceed onward. Certainly we had turnover issues in those days, beyond any doubt we had inconvenience recruiting as a not-top-server and a not-top guild, however we were competitive on the server regardless of the possibility that we needed to work somewhat harder at it than different guilds.

    I assist in leading our guild. Which is alarming since my abhorrence for the game of late is just developing with every passing week. We're truly having some major snags keeping our program at a level where we have enough subs to cover when individuals are occupied, and as it turns out, everyone lies about their accessibility on the grounds that everyone lets us know that they're accessible on X days and throughout Y hours, then again week after week things come up for now and again the same individuals and some of the time irregular individuals that drive us to run with less than a full groups. We have a great deal of turnover from unfortunate players that would not benefit from outside assistance with gear or guiding. Sidelining unfortunate players is pointless on the grounds that most of the time we require the bodies (dark animus) or recently require the Dps however small it is (horridon) to squeak by.

    I'm at a junction.

    I can either fix this, us, the guild, and our raiding situation

    or quit

    additionally concede that I simply can't manage this poop anymore and move onto another spot

    I truly like where I'm at now. Furthermore I don't suppose I'll soon or effectively discover the same nature of individuals, or warm heartedness of home.

    About my choices:

    Fixing crap - We could go back to 10m...Not so straightforward. A percentage of the most senior parts used to be some of our weakest connections, before we tackled new irregular lower quality bodies. Or I could magically fix all the stupid in the guild... which is impossible. Or we could recruit more... which we're already actively trying to do almost constantly.

    Quitting - Not that simple. I would prefer not to quit. I rather like where I am presently, and I'd lose the alternative of applying somewhere else and pressing on to raid in the event that I quit, since overall because of Realid and such, it'd be difficult to stow away what I'd truly done: xfered and signed up somewhere else.

    Leveling with the administration - How would you simply dump that on what might as well be called your companions and associates that you're fundamentally just done being accommodating and being a part of the group and need to strike out on your own and look for greener pastures? It only feels like a fiercely cold-hearted thing to do.


    With respect to ... peculiarity of this post.

    I don't wish to be identified. I made a disposable account to post this.

    I ran this through a thing online that ... did things, unpleasant things, to my post. I re-read and altered to verify it was still intelligible.

    It's still pretty awful. I'm sorry. Hopefully it gets a guffaw rather than pissing anybody off, yet my composition has a tendency to be unique and I would like to avoid any of the telltales of how I talk distinguishing who I was, both to spare individuals' feelings and to save myself the migraines.
    Last edited by throwaway123423; 2013-06-27 at 01:16 PM.

  2. #2
    Maybe you should run it back through something to turn in intelligible again?

    I haven't got a clue what the crux of your problem is. I mean... "Not so straightforward. A percentage of the most senior parts used to be some of our weakest connections, before we tackled new irregular lower quality bodies" Wtf?

  3. #3
    Well, Flex raiding should solve the "1 or two people don't show" problem. If you don't have the full 25, run the flex raid that week?

    It's a game. If you're not enjoying it I'd make a change.

    J.

  4. #4
    Used to be GM/lead in a 25 man. Swapped to 10 after probably about 1-1.5 years of struggling to stay afloat. Taking any average raider we could get, just pulling in warm bodies.

    After all of it I'd say it wasn't worth it at all - it should have been ended much, much sooner. It causes nothing but frustration and what you've ended up with. It sounds harsh and some people will probably hate you a bit for it (unavoidable really...) but just end it. In the end everyone goes off to do what they really should be doing. Some people that try to get into even semi-hardcore raiding should really just be doing LFR... not much else to say but that - but you pick them up anyway just to fill the raid. Some people quit (some had actually wanted to quit for some time), some transferred elsewhere to play with friends, etc. It wasn't all bad.

    Unfortunately most of the senior members of our 25 were our strong core though, so I didn't have quite the same predicament you did. But I inevitably screwed over some recent transfers, trials, and a few worthwhile players that there just wasn't room for. But the guild was long dead, really, and it just needed to happen.

    Now we have a strong core 10M which is getting ever closer to a full heroic clear whereas the 25 could barely handle H Jin'rokh. We can joke around and actually enjoy the game instead of wiping continuously to the same stupid mistakes and poor performance.

    If you have to transfer and apply elsewhere, just put it plainly (forum post if the guild has active forums) that you aren't enjoying the game anymore and you're dissatisfied with the guild's overall performance. Give them a week or two to adjust even before you leave. If you're polite and upfront about it and you don't slink out in the middle of the night, IMO nobody can blame you, nor should you get any bad reputation over it.

    Or, just get together with a few select people and just move on. It doesn't have to be the senior members.

    There's really no way to get through it without feeling like a bit of a dick, but you play the game for fun. If you want to get back to that it really just has to be done.

    Good luck...

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 09:48 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Maybe you should run it back through something to turn in intelligible again?

    I haven't got a clue what the crux of your problem is. I mean... "Not so straightforward. A percentage of the most senior parts used to be some of our weakest connections, before we tackled new irregular lower quality bodies" Wtf?
    I understood that just fine... the senior members of the guild, the people that have a foothold (and would be part of the 10M if they swapped), are some of their weakest links, and the 10M would fail as well. Then they recruited more people, which were inconsistent/unreliable/even worse performers.

  5. #5
    Moderator sjsctt's Avatar
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    ---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 09:48 AM ----------

    [/COLOR]

    I understood that just fine... the senior members of the guild, the people that have a foothold (and would be part of the 10M if they swapped), are some of their weakest links, and the 10M would fail as well. Then they recruited more people, which were inconsistent/unreliable/even worse performers.[/QUOTE]

    Convoluted way to say it. Not here to judge sentence structure/vocab though.

    You have two other options as well. First option is that you app out and try to get into a guild that you feel is more at your desired skill level. It sucks doing this initially, and some of your friends in game won't understand at first. Ultimately, this is a valid option and you will meet new friends and eventually the old ones will understand.

    Option two is you can tighten your recruiting standards and build for the future. This entails replacing bad with decent, then later decent with good. This is how most guilds start out. Butts will be hurt along the way, because no one likes being replaced. This is the more gratifying way to go, if you have the patience. Remember, most good guilds started out fresh and had to build on nothing.

    Best wishes!

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Maybe you should run it back through something to turn in intelligible again?

    I haven't got a clue what the crux of your problem is. I mean... "Not so straightforward. A percentage of the most senior parts used to be some of our weakest connections, before we tackled new irregular lower quality bodies" Wtf?
    Well, a straightforward solution would be "I have no butter at home, I should go to the store and get more" this problem does not have a straightforward solution. A percentage (some) of our most senior parts (members) used to be some of our weakest connections (probably should have edited that to say "links"), before (prior to) we tackled new irregular (ok, that just doesn't make sense but you should still get the jist) lower quality bodies (members).

    Some of our oldest members used to be what was holding us back. They look good now compared to some of the newer crapper members we've since taken on. But returning to 10m would still have us being held back by those same old names. So it'd solve part of but not enough of the problem.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 02:16 PM ----------

    To avoid long quote-trains...

    EntropyJim - We are as Spiralphoenix put it, a semi-hardecore guild. Flex just isn't a replacement. It's something we'll no doubt be doing in addition to LFR and normals to gear up, until it no longer has upgrades, but it's just not a replacement for doing real runs. Appreciate the thought though and thanks for the response.

    Spiralphoenix - Resonates a lot. Appreciate the feedback. I know it's something we'll have to discuss and consider, it's just really hard to accept that the guild might be past its time, and equally hard to admit that my time with the guild may be past its time. The goal of fun is really what hits home... that most recent DLC with the kid that's retarded and his raid leaders where he goes "I'm having fun... why, what are you guys doing" - pow, right in the feels. It just hurts so bad that I'm sacrificing fun in my recreational freetime to avoid hurting anyone's feelings/keep the guild and our raiding viable.

    sjsctt - I'd have to give them a heads up first before apping around, it's an option, just not one I consider lightly. If it ever got back to them that I went around apping behind their backs I would feel terrible, and I just don't think that's my style. We did this once a long time ago with our very first guild that super casually raided. We moved to raid, and they understood, but they also faded away and we don't really hear from them or talk anymore. So I worry that we'll lose our current friends, slowly, over time, the same way you tend to lose highschool friends or work friends just from lack of contact, and I don't like the idea of slowly drifting apart from all the cool people I've met here.

    As far as recruitment goes, it's hard dude. There's just not enough interested bodies on our server. Offserver recruitment is even harder because you're competing with tons of guilds that are just looking for bodies to fill spots, who've got way more progression than you currently do, and I feel like when 10 guilds respond to your "looking for guild" post, and 5 of them are significantly more progressed than you, that guy is apping with those 5, and probably getting into one that just needs bodies, and isn't bothering with your guild, despite the fact that your guild is a much better fit for their experience/progression/gear level. So that leaves us picking at the bones of people who're barely LFR geared or normal mode geared, most of whom are just frankly terrible. We've been at this for tiers now, and recruiting and turnover have just always been a supreme struggle for us. If you've got a magic bullet for that I'd love to hear it. =P

    Edit:

    sjsctt I can't reply to your PM due to lack of post count. (which is odd, you'd think they'd configure it to let you reply to a PM...)
    Last edited by throwaway123423; 2013-06-27 at 02:21 PM.

  7. #7
    Moderator sjsctt's Avatar
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    Recruiting does suck. It would literally take you and two others a vast amount of effort to do it. It is not easy, or fun, but the rewards are amazing. I am in a guild that went through something like what you are going through. While I was not here, I have heard the history of the guild and it sounds very similar. The founders of my guild did it. They hurt some butts over the course of 2 tiers by replacing bads with goods (despite seniority) and stepped it up to a top 100 us guild. We have been hovering around top 50 US since Cata, so I think it is fairly remarkable. It is neither an easy or fast transition though.

    For you in recruiting, you could change your catch phrase to something like "looking to step it up from a 10 man normal/heroic guild to a 25 heroic guild? We are looking to strengthen our roster and push heroic content faster , so this is your chance!"

  8. #8
    Honestly, you can fix it or quit. What you should do is partially dependent on how important the guild is to you, whether your frustration is mostly yours and the rest of the raid is comfortable with things, and how much work you want to put in,especially in summer.

    One thing I'd think about in your shoes... you deliberately are hiding your ID. Throwaway account, obtuse posting language (which is just rude...), etc. How much of this is you and your apparent unwillingness to be upfront vs hiding from things? Are you being upfront with your raid and guild or are you similarly obscure with them?

    Ultimately, WoW isnt life, it's just a game. If you're not enjoying it and the process of weeding out people who don't want to push progress and rebuilding makes you shudder, I'd quit at least for a bit. Perhaps come back, perhaps as part of a good raid but not as a leader so that you don't have that pressure.

  9. #9
    Always always recruit, my advice is if those people don't show replace them. 25 man raid? No problem recruit 5-9 players more there's no need to keep a roster of the exact raid 10/25. Always have more people you would be surprised! Use a point system dkp or epgp of some sort. Put your foot down and don't let those ppl take advantage

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Honestly, you can fix it or quit. What you should do is partially dependent on how important the guild is to you, whether your frustration is mostly yours and the rest of the raid is comfortable with things, and how much work you want to put in,especially in summer.

    One thing I'd think about in your shoes... you deliberately are hiding your ID. Throwaway account, obtuse posting language (which is just rude...), etc. How much of this is you and your apparent unwillingness to be upfront vs hiding from things? Are you being upfront with your raid and guild or are you similarly obscure with them?

    Ultimately, WoW isnt life, it's just a game. If you're not enjoying it and the process of weeding out people who don't want to push progress and rebuilding makes you shudder, I'd quit at least for a bit. Perhaps come back, perhaps as part of a good raid but not as a leader so that you don't have that pressure.
    Fair questions and fair criticism.

    The guild is fairly important to me. Most of the raiding team feels similar frustrations, though not from the position of a leader obviously. Everyone is peeved at performance. But the same people getting it "right" one fight, are "problems" on other fights. So you've got different people doing bad or good different fights, minus the "core" people that tend to be competent across the board. But I think it creates a situation where everyone thinks everyone else is an idiot and doesn't see that they're part of the problem. So no one is "comfortable" with how things are. (I don't think). Frankly no clue how much summer is a factor. People tend to blame summer for things sometimes, but things are just as suck outside of summer in my experiences. But maybe that's a factor. Summer isn't personally a factor for me, but I don't want to be putting in herculean amounts of effort just to keep the guild/this raiding team afloat regardless of the season, despite how much I like the guild.

    Despite what conclusions you may draw about me, my situation, or my interaction with the guild, I've actually been very upfront about my feelings. The thing I haven't done is really spelled out in no uncertain terms that this is in a non-blowing-off-steam-way making me not want to raid/play WoW. And yea, that's a willful omission on my part. But the throwaway and obtuse language is actually BECAUSE of how much we talk about our situation, plans, etc. The way we talk about our situation and such have become rhetoric. I couldn't talk about everything in the OP without it smacking too much of things I've already said and typed. Something that'd give away who I am would leak out in there. Why the anonymity? Because it just looks SO bad when your GM or raid leader or an officer comes to public forums and basically makes it sound like your guild/raiding team is a sinking ship. Even if it is. Because I am a hypocrite. Because I say encouraging things and try to keep a positive outlook, even if I know better in the back of my head, even if I'm personally unhappy. And so for anyone from that guild to come here and see this and know who I was and know how I felt, would not only reflect poorly on me and our leadership (selfish consideration) but it'd also be demoralizing, and raid morale is actually pretty important IMO.

    And you're right. WoW isn't life. IT IS just a game, and that's why I'm trying so hard to get back to fun. Having to continue to rebuild, over and over, week after week, applicant after applicant, new person to explain fights to, gear up, only to have them continually underperform, not show up, stop logging on, again and again, I just can't do this into infinitum. Our core isn't expanding. We're not slowly assimilating new members who after a learning curve and gearing up process become competent trusted members. We've had a few, sure, but by and large the core remains stagnant and small, with a lot of dead weight that isn't improving getting dragged along. Some dead weight leaves, some new deadweight comes, new deadweight is always heavier because you've done nothing to shape it and improve it yet. Core remains the same size. It sucks.

    I wish I could just take a break, but taking a break would seriously damage our feasibility. It's like a relationship where you need to break up but the other person is a deadbeat with no job and you know breaking up leaves them without a home and without an income. I know I should just take a break, or quit, or move on. Or get more serious about our other options. I'm just having trouble getting to the point where I'm doing/changing something because no matter what it'll involve rocking the boat.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 05:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiinji View Post
    Always always recruit, my advice is if those people don't show replace them. 25 man raid? No problem recruit 5-9 players more there's no need to keep a roster of the exact raid 10/25. Always have more people you would be surprised! Use a point system dkp or epgp of some sort. Put your foot down and don't let those ppl take advantage
    It's really not that simple for a middle of the road progression guild to pick up remotely competent raiders.

  11. #11
    One thing that an old guild of mine did when we hit a snag was simple; we made a guild-wide announcement that we were having a giant guild Ventrilo meeting on one particular day, making it known weeks in advance. Once we got everyone in one place, we communicated our new strategy.

    Inform members that, in an attempt to make progress easier and raiding more fun, you are going to begin making sure that everyone is optimal for raiding. Tell players that they are going to be held to attendance and play standards, and that the quality of the raider as a whole is what will matter; not their seniority or time inside of the guild.

    Then, begin to watch players as they raid. Begin to determine who knows their class and consistently does the work inside and outside of the raid dungeon. Keep track of their attendance records and attitudes throughout the raids. what do they contribute?

    By clearly communicating your emphasis on quality play, you'll make it easier to say, "Sorry, you're not meeting our standards of play right now. You're going to need to improve X or Y, or you may not be a good fit for the team."

    By informing your player base up front that they may need to change or improve in order to stay in the guild, you'll make it easier to deliver constructive criticism, and replace members who are incapable of improving their attendance or quality of play. Over time, if excessive players don't meet your standards, you may be able to size back down to a 10 man size.

  12. #12
    Hrm... you sound like the progression 25 man version of my raid then. My advice would be do call a meeting of the raid and get people into vent. Tell them what you've told me (that many people are screwing up just on different fights, that no showing when they've signed up and halfassing it are hurting the raid). Challenge them. DO they really want to raid and progress or not? They cannot whine about things then no show, perform poorly, etc. If they claim they want to do well, some things:

    1) Use loot as an inducement to do well. You can do this by either rewarding it via loot council to people who do well (and don't halfass it) or by penalizing people who do things like no show. You can also use DKP to do things like this (dock DKP for no shows, late logins)

    2) Kick people who no-show consistently. I don't mean from the raid, I mean from the guild. Be strict and tell people that signing up and then no showing consistently (or logging in late, etc) is disrespectful and that it's grounds for a gkick.

    3) Trial recruits and tell them that no showing, etc is grounds for a kick. Tell them that you're serious and if they cannot perform well consistently on bosses they won't get in. Stick to this... don't tell them that then let marginal performers in just to make 25.

    4) Move to 10s. If you have people who are consistently fucking up, move to 10s (1 or 2 depending on how many bads) and simply don't take the unreliable or crap players.

    If, after all this the raid says they want to do well but doesn't actually follow through with actions and you cannot or don't want to do 10s, leave the guild. At the end of the day, you cannot make people login and play well, all you can do is weed out people who aren't performing, recruit replacements and accept that some replacements will need to be weeded out.

    Me, I'd put people on notice that the days of tolerating fuckups and no shows are over and that they need to show up and perform or they're out. Out can mean just out of the raid if they are cool people but just not good enough raiders but I'd gkick any who consistently screw the raid by no showing, etc.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Noemonad View Post
    One thing that an old guild of mine did when we hit a snag was simple; we made a guild-wide announcement that we were having a giant guild Ventrilo meeting on one particular day, making it known weeks in advance. Once we got everyone in one place, we communicated our new strategy.
    We've done similar things in the past... and I really like this approach, it's just a ton of work, and at the end of the day it all comes back to: Can we actually get bodies to replace these people if we do all this and need to bench them/replace them? More often than not the answer is no. Nonetheless solid advice and I appreciate you taking the time.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 06:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post

    Me, I'd put people on notice that the days of tolerating fuckups and no shows are over and that they need to show up and perform or they're out. Out can mean just out of the raid if they are cool people but just not good enough raiders but I'd gkick any who consistently screw the raid by no showing, etc.
    I think part of our issue is that we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater if we really take all the necessary steps to make this happen.

    A few of our middle of the road performers are tied at the hip to some of our better players. People've got friends they care about that raid. It's just such a messy situation. There's straightforward no-bullshit solutions to all of this, and in a bubble I'd make those calls in a heartbeat, but I just don't know if I can stomach the shitstorm some of the people we might end up having to cut would create. Maybe that makes me a coward or a not great leader. I probably shouldn't be leading. This is all good food for thought though and I appreciate your suggestions, it's all a nudge towards taking an action, I think the only wrong thing to do at this point is not take action.

  14. #14
    for me, early EP has been an effective tool for getting started on time. before we implemented that, it was normal for some people to show up 10 minutes late.

    but it sounds like you really don't have a big enough roster to be running 25's. you need 30-32 raiders at least, and if you're just "filling warm bodies", you probably don't have that.

    one thing you can do is schedule 25's on tuesday, and it you're short when it's time to start, just break into two 10 mans. don't wait until an hour past for that last person or two to show up. have two raid leaders identified, have the teams chosen ahead of time, and just call it.

    keep recruiting, and eventually your 25's will take (off or they won't and you'll continue with two 10 man groups). sticking around is often the tougher choice, but also more rewarding if you work it out.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by marklar View Post
    for me, early EP has been an effective tool for getting started on time. before we implemented that, it was normal for some people to show up 10 minutes late.

    but it sounds like you really don't have a big enough roster to be running 25's. you need 30-32 raiders at least, and if you're just "filling warm bodies", you probably don't have that.

    one thing you can do is schedule 25's on tuesday, and it you're short when it's time to start, just break into two 10 mans. don't wait until an hour past for that last person or two to show up. have two raid leaders identified, have the teams chosen ahead of time, and just call it.

    keep recruiting, and eventually your 25's will take (off or they won't and you'll continue with two 10 man groups). sticking around is often the tougher choice, but also more rewarding if you work it out.
    Splitting into two 10s wasn't something I'd given much credit to as an idea because we've never had two separate strong experienced raid leaders before (and we still don't) but maybe that's something we could fix and try. Thanks for the idea. Also unfortunately we don't do any point system. It's been veto'd into the ground due to effort/time consumption/complexity/perceived complexity/stigma. I'd love it, but the consensus is no.

  16. #16
    Moderator sjsctt's Avatar
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    At this point, you have shot down most advice. When every suggestion has a "but" may be time for you to move on. Either to another guild, or another game.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by sjsctt View Post
    At this point, you have shot down most advice. When every suggestion has a "but" may be time for you to move on. Either to another guild, or another game.
    Sorry, I'm actually considering most of it and I'm going to be thinking hard about all of the suggestions and bringing some of them up to the other officers. You're right to point that out though, because I think what you're saying is that if every option has a "but" attached to it, maybe that means I don't really want to go through the trouble of dealing with that option, even if it might work. And that might be true. Hopefully I don't sound ungrateful, I'm in a crappy place right now with how I feel about our circumstances, raiding, and the game overall, but I appreciate everyone's feedback and it's helping me formulate some solid plans on what I'll do.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by throwaway123423 View Post


    I think part of our issue is that we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater if we really take all the necessary steps to make this happen.

    A few of our middle of the road performers are tied at the hip to some of our better players. People've got friends they care about that raid. It's just such a messy situation. There's straightforward no-bullshit solutions to all of this, and in a bubble I'd make those calls in a heartbeat, but I just don't know if I can stomach the shitstorm some of the people we might end up having to cut would create. Maybe that makes me a coward or a not great leader. I probably shouldn't be leading. This is all good food for thought though and I appreciate your suggestions, it's all a nudge towards taking an action, I think the only wrong thing to do at this point is not take action.
    The point of the meeting isn't to deliver an ultimatum though and in fact you should not do that. The point is twofold:

    First, to get the raiders to say that they want to progress more. In fact, I'd start out by saying something like "YOu know, we can just raid casually, kill normals and get where we get in heroics... or we can progress. Which do you guys want to do?

    Second, to get them to admit that the raid as a whole has issues hindering progress. If they want to progress everyone in the raid who's not playing up to snuff needs to move their game up. People who are no-showing need to either show up or be replaced.

    In other words, you want to draw out the disconnect between the desire to progress and the apparent lack of desire to show up on time, play well, etc. Make it clear that progress is tied to showing up and playing well.

    Finally, set goals. "Ok, everyone, if we want to progress and all of you are saying you'll show up on time and focus, let's do that for a couple of weeks and by then we should be killing BOSS and working on NEXT BOSS."

    You also cannot let the threat of players walking deter you from putting in place rules and enforcing them. If people commit to showing up then dont, you need to bench or gkick them if those are the rules. Make the rules very clear in the meeting, make the consequences very clear and everyone if they're sure that they're OK with them. IF people say they are, then you have buy in.

    If one player is tied to another player and fucks up or no shows, that other player needs to be told "Look, I know you're tight with X, but I can't make exceptions... two no shows in a row is an automatic benching. Put yourself in my shoes...."

    You have to be fair and cannot be overly strict, but the entire idea here is to say "Look, you guys are all saying you want to progress. IF you do, we need everyone to do X and Y and Z. If people don't do that, they'll be benched because as you all are saying we want to progress. We can't slack and allow no shows and drastically substandard play and do what you all claim to want, progress. If those rules aren't OK with you then as a raid we need to decide we're NOT going to progress." It's really just making them walk the talk. If they won't, then adjust the talk or let them leave and recruit people who come in knowing the expectations and rules.

    If you're not OK doing this and you're not OK with less progress then the only things left are to move to 10s (one or two) or to step down/leave.
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-06-27 at 07:03 PM.

  19. #19

    Give up on 25s

    Quote Originally Posted by throwaway123423 View Post
    Splitting into two 10s wasn't something I'd given much credit to as an idea because we've never had two separate strong experienced raid leaders before (and we still don't) but maybe that's something we could fix and try. Thanks for the idea. Also unfortunately we don't do any point system. It's been veto'd into the ground due to effort/time consumption/complexity/perceived complexity/stigma. I'd love it, but the consensus is no.
    You're fighting the only way to make a heroic 25 person group work. That is removing all feelings of sympathy and embracing meritocracy. Unless you want to build yourself up to kicking people routinely (It will never stabilize, it's part of the deal) and constantly poaching/otherwise doing whatever you can to acquire additional players, 25 heroics are not for you. From what you're describing, your entire attitude needs to change for you to effectively run a 25 group, and that's not necessarily a good thing.

    All bullshit and misplaced machismo aside (I do 199k dps, so suddenly I'm not a nerd, I'm a fucking hardcore badass... right?) in these situations you need to figure out what you're comfortable with and what your goals are. It doesn't sound like you want the hire/fire heavy job of running a 25 group capable of heroic progression, and if you don't want it, don't do it. If you want to do heroics and have a group within your guild capable, switch to 10s. If you don't care, then stop stressing and resign yourself to very limited progression with your 25. Just figure out what you want.

    Unless you're on the top of your server, and your server has a strong raid community, it's pretty rough trying to maintain a heroic capable 25 group. You'll have a very, very long process of establishing yourself. You'll need to put up with a lot of people you don't like, because they happen to perform their role well. All that sort of stuff. It doesn't SOUND like you want to do that, so don't. You're just going to burn yourself out and quit if you stay on this road.

    It sounds like you'd be happier with 10s. That probably means most of your core people would too, unless you're just the odd-man-out. If you are, than you can quit, knowing that the group just went somewhere you weren't having fun. A good rule for leadership is: If you feel something very strongly in the context of your group, positive or negative, other people feel it too.

    Edit: I thought it was worth adding, it sounds like the power structure of your guild would need to be altered as well, which was part of why I gave a "Just Stop" response, but I felt it was worth mentioning explicitly. Everyone would need to be on board and ready to enforce a new general approach, that's not easy.
    Last edited by Valenthiel; 2013-06-27 at 07:22 PM. Reason: Thought I should add...

  20. #20
    Wait... the 'consensus' is not to do DKP... consensus among WHO? The officers? If they're not the GM or RL, fuck that. the raiders? Hey, leading a raid isn't a democracy.

    Never, ever, take on this level of work without the authority to make the decisions. If others want to make the decisions, they need to do the work. If the culture of your guild lets people not do anything but then have a say, leave. Leave now. At t he very least, stop doing the work. IF that means the raid falls flat, oh well.

    PS: It really sounds like this is stressing you and putting you in a bad place. I heartily recommend stepping down or quitting when a game does that. Games should be fun and if you're not, on balance, having more positives than negatives it's a bad sign.

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