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  1. #1

    Which cloak for prot?

    Well, I saw a discussion on this before hand with the haste / mastery cloak being the best choice. However, they are adding something to the tanking cloak that would make us survive an otherwise unsurvivable hit. I would just like to know if the proc makes the lose of a valuable state like haste worth it? I mean, one shot mechanics aren't really around thus far this expansion. I also don't see blizzard all of the suddenly designing bosses that would actually assume that a tank has the legendary cloak (since some won't). So I am hesitant as to what to do. Especially since Im on the last part before I go and get the celestials blessings.

  2. #2
    Epic! Ealyssa's Avatar
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    Tank one without doubt. Proc is the main point of the legendary, dps proc is useless for prot spec (at least from a survivability pov, could be used for dps ranking obviously).

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    Tank one without doubt. Proc is the main point of the legendary, dps proc is useless for prot spec (at least from a survivability pov, could be used for dps ranking obviously).
    So, the proc outweighs the haste id be giving up? Currently the dps cloak has 2 beneficial stats vs 1 beneficial stat on the tanking one. The tank proc is also one that assumes its saving you from an otherwise fatal hit. Something most tanks will be able to handle without the cloak. They can't realistically design any boss encounters under the assumption you will die yet have no way to counter it unless you have said proc. So Im assuming the proc will only really get used if you mess up at a key point.

  4. #4
    great.. got my cloak 3 days ago. gotta waste 7k for a new one T_T

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    So Im assuming the proc will only really get used if you mess up at a key point.
    Which during progress might be the difference between a kill or a wipe.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by jaytheo View Post
    Which during progress might be the difference between a kill or a wipe.
    Yes, yes it can. However, that's able to be said of most encounters before now and will be able to be said about them long after.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    So, the proc outweighs the haste id be giving up? Currently the dps cloak has 2 beneficial stats vs 1 beneficial stat on the tanking one. The tank proc is also one that assumes its saving you from an otherwise fatal hit. Something most tanks will be able to handle without the cloak. They can't realistically design any boss encounters under the assumption you will die yet have no way to counter it unless you have said proc. So Im assuming the proc will only really get used if you mess up at a key point.
    Dodge and parry are not beneficial stats for tanks?

    I realize that, as a prot paladin, we desire haste above all else, but the crit on the DPS cloak is 100% worthless. The dodge and parry on the tanking one, however, are not.

    Essentially, you're choosing between a cloak with guaranteed wasted stats (crit) versus a cloak with one great stat (mastery) and two low priority stats (dodge and parry) that can be reforged to haste.

    In my opinion, if you're taking something with crit on it just for the haste, you aren't doing it right. If someone wants to math it out and prove me wrong, go right ahead. I'd love to know for sure before I get my cloak. But I honestly don't expect that to happen.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    Dodge and parry are not beneficial stats for tanks?

    I realize that, as a prot paladin, we desire haste above all else, but the crit on the DPS cloak is 100% worthless. The dodge and parry on the tanking one, however, are not.

    I'm of the opinion that if you're taking something with crit on it just for the haste, you aren't doing it right.
    Haste And mastery. Our top two stats with one that Does do a bit of good that we Can reforge to hit / exp without having to touch either of the good stats. Dodge and parry are pretty bad for paladins.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    So, the proc outweighs the haste id be giving up? Currently the dps cloak has 2 beneficial stats vs 1 beneficial stat on the tanking one. The tank proc is also one that assumes its saving you from an otherwise fatal hit. Something most tanks will be able to handle without the cloak. They can't realistically design any boss encounters under the assumption you will die yet have no way to counter it unless you have said proc. So Im assuming the proc will only really get used if you mess up at a key point.
    Or you know, it will help you get the kill early along during progress than you normally could because you won't need the gear upgrades to survive. You'll be able to use the cloak on mechanics and thus use your tanking cooldowns elsewhere, easing up the load for the healers. Unless you are telling me improving a tank's gear is worthless in progression and it is all about the dps!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    Haste And mastery. Our top two stats with one that Does do a bit of good that we Can reforge to hit / exp without having to touch either of the good stats. Dodge and parry are pretty bad for paladins.
    Perhaps I'm wrong. I'm fully willing to admit that might be the case. All the same, I hate seeing prot paladins with worthless stats like crit. At least dodge and parry provide some benefit.

    And that's not even considering the proc.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    Tank one without doubt. Proc is the main point of the legendary, dps proc is useless for prot spec (at least from a survivability pov, could be used for dps ranking obviously).
    Or not.
    Depending on how it works it can be very underwhelming.

    Until we see all the fights + mechanics i'd say the dps one.

  12. #12
    I think a lot of people are severely underestimating the value of the tank proc. Do you guys remember back when Prot Paladins were first given Ardent Defender? Back then, it was a passive ability that procced when you took a killing blow. This was considered by a huge portion of the community to be incredibly OP since it was a tanking cooldown that was guaranteed to save your life and that didn't require you to hit any buttons.

    Now all tanks are being given that ability on a one-minute cooldown. I can understand how that might not be desireable if your guild is limited to normal modes, but I'd be very surprised if pretty much every single heroic tank didn't find major benefits from it during progression.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Or you know, it will help you get the kill early along during progress than you normally could because you won't need the gear upgrades to survive. You'll be able to use the cloak on mechanics and thus use your tanking cooldowns elsewhere, easing up the load for the healers. Unless you are telling me improving a tank's gear is worthless in progression and it is all about the dps!
    Im not going to explain it to you fully, but Haste and Mastery are both MUCH better survival stats for a prot paladin then either dodge or parry. You can also reforge the crit to hit or exp. Allowing the haste /mastery to go untouched.

    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Or not.
    Depending on how it works it can be very underwhelming.

    Until we see all the fights + mechanics i'd say the dps one.
    This is exactly why I ask. Survival standpoint, haste and master > dodge or parry. If none of the mechanics will realistically even proc the defense of the tanking one, itd be waisted pretty much.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    Im not going to explain it to you fully, but Haste and Mastery are both MUCH better survival stats for a prot paladin then either dodge or parry. You can also reforge the crit to hit or exp. Allowing the haste /mastery to go untouched.

    This is exactly why I ask. Survival standpoint, haste and master > dodge or parry. If none of the mechanics will realistically even proc the defense of the tanking one, itd be waisted pretty much.
    Any Prot Paladin who expects to progress through heroic SoO without dying and wiping the raid is not being very realistic.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    Im not going to explain it to you fully, but Haste and Mastery are both MUCH better survival stats for a prot paladin then either dodge or parry. You can also reforge the crit to hit or exp. Allowing the haste /mastery to go untouched.

    This is exactly why I ask. Survival standpoint, haste and master > dodge or parry. If none of the mechanics will realistically even proc the defense of the tanking one, itd be waisted pretty much.
    Thing is, unless we get sort of "once every min- 2min 700k unmitigated dmg on tank ability" it's probably going to be useless.

    The problem is that a) all of those abilities that could be worth ignoring a cd for (only one i can come up with is standing in lei-shen's balls for decap) are designed around having cd's for it (well or some creative tanking). Which means that the cloak isn't going to be really saving us that much.
    And unless we do get a giant hits on tanks it's probably going to be something like :

    Tank down to 25% health.
    Melee hit for 30%
    Cloak Proc
    Melee hit for 30%
    Tank dies.

    Very rarely did i have those moments when a split second heal would save me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    Any Prot Paladin who expects to progress through heroic SoO without dying and wiping the raid is not being very realistic.
    Yes, and using that logic everyone in the raid should get the tank one.

  16. #16
    It's not even a question of mechanics. Even prot paladins who play perfectly will occasionally find themselves dying when healers are busy healing someone else, especially during progression.

    Celinamuna, consider this: In your example, you start at 25%. You get hit for 30% and are saved by the shield proc. The next hit, depending on the boss' swing timer, is going to be at least 1.5 to 3 seconds away, right? During this period of time, you ARE quite likely to receive at least a few ticks of HoT heals, correct? And you're guaranteed to receive a tick or two of Seal of Insight healing (30-70k heal per hit). Maybe your Sacred Shield will refresh during this period. If nothing else, you'll see a big weak/power aura popping up telling you that you just took a killing blow, which will be your cue to WOG yourself.

    In other words, your example is, at best, unrealistic.

    Personally, I think the tank proc could've been much better if it were something else... but I remember the old AD and I remember how many times it saved my life. It's going to be very useful.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Thing is, unless we get sort of "once every min- 2min 700k unmitigated dmg on tank ability" it's probably going to be useless.

    The problem is that a) all of those abilities that could be worth ignoring a cd for (only one i can come up with is standing in lei-shen's balls for decap) are designed around having cd's for it (well or some creative tanking). Which means that the cloak isn't going to be really saving us that much.
    And unless we do get a giant hits on tanks it's probably going to be something like :

    Tank down to 25% health.
    Melee hit for 30%
    Cloak Proc
    Melee hit for 30%
    Tank dies.

    Very rarely did i have those moments when a split second heal would save me.



    Yes, and using that logic everyone in the raid should get the tank one.
    Well, depending on how fast the top guilds are, Id be surprised if their tanks even Have the proc by the time they get to heroic garosh. My ardent defender worked so well for a simple fact. It also reduced my damage taken after saving me. If im about to die from just Basic mechanics, it probably will do nothing but save me for a few extra seconds while I then die.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-29 at 05:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    It's not even a question of mechanics. Even prot paladins who play perfectly will occasionally find themselves dying when healers are busy healing someone else, especially during progression.

    Celinamuna, consider this: In your example, you start at 25%. You get hit for 30% and are saved by the shield proc. The next hit, depending on the boss' swing timer, is going to be at least 1.5 to 3 seconds away, right? During this period of time, you ARE quite likely to receive at least a few ticks of HoT heals, correct? And you're guaranteed to receive a tick or two of Seal of Insight healing. Maybe your Sacred Shield will refresh during this period. If nothing else, you'll see a big weak/power aura popping up telling you that you just took a killing blow, which will be your cue to WOG yourself.

    In other words, your example is, at best, unrealistic.
    So is yours honestly. A few ticks and minor heals from seal will save no one. If healers are too busy healing the raid, somethings going much more wrong then you doing your job.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    It's not even a question of mechanics. Even prot paladins who play perfectly will occasionally find themselves dying when healers are busy healing someone else, especially during progression.

    Celinamuna, consider this: In your example, you start at 25%. You get hit for 30% and are saved by the shield proc. The next hit, depending on the boss' swing timer, is going to be at least 1.5 to 3 seconds away, right? During this period of time, you ARE quite likely to receive at least a few ticks of HoT heals, correct? And you're guaranteed to receive a tick or two of Seal of Insight healing. Maybe your Sacred Shield will refresh during this period. If nothing else, you'll see a big weak/power aura popping up telling you that you just took a killing blow, which will be your cue to WOG yourself.
    H dark animus little adds.
    Any mechanic that deals dmg a few times quickly in smaller portions.

    Yes it might have some benefit. But how much dps and constant survival (haste/mastery) are we losing ?

    (Again, can be used for gimmicks ie : H Primo and not wiping after black add hits him)

    And again, very rarely did i die while healer was having a heal casting on me. (And no, even instants aren't guaranteed because of GCD)

  19. #19
    I imagine we'll be able to pick and choose, anyway. Blizzard seemed pretty receptive to allowing us to purchase cloaks for each of our specs. I realize that isn't the case now, but I'll be surprised if it isn't in 5.4.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-29 at 09:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    So is yours honestly. A few ticks and minor heals from seal will save no one. If healers are too busy healing the raid, somethings going much more wrong then you doing your job.
    Have you ever paid attention to how much your Seal of Insight actually heals for? Go look over your logs and do the math before you say that my scenario is unrealistic. I actually looked up the information before I posted. I wouldn't have posted, otherwise.

    At any rate, I'm done with this thread. You asked for advice but it seems that you've already made up your mind. Good luck.

  20. #20
    I'm personally going to say take the DPS cloak. Lets be honest, a 30% heal from death isn't really worth the % trade off from the mastery + haste gain we get from the DPS cloak, & this isn't even including the fact that as a prot paladin, at least from my perspective, I'm not really dropping that low on HC fights anyway, it's very rare that it's my death that causes a wipe.

    In fact, it's very rare that I die at all, unless we're wiping so I personally wouldn't feel the cloak would help me at all. Especially combined with the new unbreakable spirit talent combined with the Divine Protection glyph for physical damage fights - that's a lot of time we're spending with at least some form of damage reduction. I'm sure the new sacred shield talent revamp will add to the appeal of the cloaks proc as well if I'm honest.

    Also, I see crit as a useful stat, especially alongside haste on an item, & in particular on the cloak, because it means we can reforge out of it for Hit / EXP, (which is still a pain in the ass to hard cap), meaning we don't drop any mastery or haste.

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