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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Amuramie View Post
    What bosses are you fighting that have a .5-1 second swing timer? o_O
    On most boss scenarios you often have a secondary source of damage, adds, a dot, second boss etc. So while that one attack didnt kill you are highly likely to die within the next few seconds.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amuramie View Post
    That's not really the assumption that's being made. However, if I do happen to have an off night, the cloak might be useful.
    - Fingers slip from their pre-assigned positions.
    - It's been a long day, running on very little sleep, and frankly, I'm just not playing well.
    - Me or my OT flubs a taunt swap and eats a point-blank Decap (and fails to realize it because we are in the habit of such things going smoothly).


    How or those not straight presuming bad play? Others of your situations like Internet going away, healer being forced to afk etc, well those situations are supposed to cause wipes, your cloak is not going to save you. I dont know what kind of superman cloak you think the tank cloak is, but if you lose internet you are not gonna survive with or without it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amuramie View Post
    You're going to have to explain to me how picking that cloak is causing deaths, because I don't think we are on the same page at all.
    The tank cloak got completely worthless stats. It is beyond bad, it is the trash of trash. While you can see "Oh , the proc saved me there!", it is harder to tell how many times you died because of the bad stats on the cloak, how many times did the superior stats on the dps cloak save your life because you got that SotR cast or SS tick 0.02 seconds faster because you had more haste, you do not know that. You are talking like there is only benefits to the tank cloak, while in fact it is a huge survivability decrease if you ignore the proc.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amuramie View Post
    Is it really useful, though? I could argue it's only being useful if those extra DPS you gain from using the DPS cloak are the extra seconds you need to push a boss over before he enrages, or pushing adds down before some critical point where they need to be down. If you have plenty of time to spare because you and your DPS are already on point, what did you gain?
    DPS is always useful, unless as Nairobi said, sometimes pushing something to fast is not good. Like Megaera heads or if something has damage reflection. Just because you are not hitting an enrage does not mean more dps is bad.



    Quote Originally Posted by Amuramie View Post
    Well, yeah, because ShoR won't save me if my house catches fire, and CDs won't either.
    Neither will the cloak.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I would much rather have a proc that I know will be useful on every single fight in the game, that has the best possible itemiziation. Simple as that, I may keep the tank cloak in bags if I need to cheese an encounter, but it is just that, cheesing encounters. That is the only thing it is useful for. If there is some encounter where I can make a part of the fight trivial by using the cloak, then fine, I have it in my bags. But it is going to be an exception more than a rule.

    Taking on a sub-par item with the mindset "In case my house catches on fire or I play like shit it could maybe possibly help me survive a few more milliseconds" seems like a very flawed mindset. You have a vast toolbox of defensive CDs. Use them, tank deaths should not be an issue.
    Quoting you, but addressing Amura too.

    I left out the first part because I don't think any of us can quantify a number of wipes/deaths attributable to "add(s) didn't die 1 sec sooner" or "didn't push transition 1 sec faster" purely to tank damage input with any statistical significance.

    HOWEVER

    I will say that our group (13/13) has had far more wipes due to not pushing a transition on HC council, HC lei shen, killing adds fast enough on HC Primo or HC Horri, etc etc FAR more than tank deaths. By about a margin of 50:1 if I had to quantify. And that is not an exaggeration. I can count the number of times that we had tank deaths that caused raid wipes on my hands.

    Now, sure, a lot of those close-call DPS races means that the burden falls primarily on the DPS (duh), but tank (and healer) contributions are even MORE important in those cases. Think of things like HC Garajal on week 2 (lol hybrids+discs). Things like HC Garalon (soaking cleaves in dps spec/gear). Things like....EVERYTHING being easier with disc/MW combo and/or Protpal/BrM for "bonus" heals and DPS. Putting it into those perspectives (I.E. the ones that matter), there is no room for a vastly underwhelimg proc, designed solely to lessen the penatly on bad play.

    Now, if your group is still working on normals or early heroics, and is not a top-tier progression guild, then sure the tank cape might be useful. But I sit next to our disc priest to raid, and she tells me when she's gotta run/be OOR and I plan accordingly. Using VOIP means that everyone can and should be aware of what's going on, rendering the cape proc all but useless except for cheesing encounters.

    TL;DR - If your cat is causing the majority of your raid wipes, you should change your cat, not your cape.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    By about a margin of 50:1 if I had to quantify. And that is not an exaggeration. I can count the number of times that we had tank deaths that caused raid wipes on my hands.
    And the amount of those tank deaths that would not have happened with the tank cloak proc you could probably count without hands.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    How or those not straight presuming bad play? Others of your situations like Internet going away, healer being forced to afk etc, well those situations are supposed to cause wipes, your cloak is not going to save you. I dont know what kind of superman cloak you think the tank cloak is, but if you lose internet you are not gonna survive with or without it.
    I'm assuming that mistakes will occasionally happen, as will events that are beyond my control. "Superman cloak?" My stance is and has been that the Tank cloak has survival possibilities whereas the DPS cloak does not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    The tank cloak got completely worthless stats. It is beyond bad, it is the trash of trash. While you can see "Oh, the proc saved me there!", it is harder to tell how many times you died because of the bad stats on the cloak, how many times did the superior stats on the dps cloak save your life because you got that SotR cast or SS tick 0.02 seconds faster because you had more haste, you do not know that. You are talking like there is only benefits to the tank cloak, while in fact it is a huge survivability decrease if you ignore the proc.
    Okay, thanks for clarifying, but I still think you're exaggerating. Completely worthless stats? It shares 33% of its stats with the DPS cloak. Count the reforge and it shares (if my math is right) 46% of its stats with the DPS cloak. The trash of trash? Come on, now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Just because you are not hitting an enrage does not mean more dps is bad.
    This is where I started wondering if you're just purposefully being antagonistic. I never suggested more DPS is bad, I asked you to defend your stance that extra DPS was going to be meaningful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    I will say that our group (13/13) has had far more wipes due to not pushing a transition on HC council, HC lei shen, killing adds fast enough on HC Primo or HC Horri, etc etc FAR more than tank deaths. By about a margin of 50:1 if I had to quantify. And that is not an exaggeration. I can count the number of times that we had tank deaths that caused raid wipes on my hands.

    Now, sure, a lot of those close-call DPS races means that the burden falls primarily on the DPS (duh), but tank (and healer) contributions are even MORE important in those cases. Think of things like HC Garajal on week 2 (lol hybrids+discs). Things like HC Garalon (soaking cleaves in dps spec/gear). Things like....EVERYTHING being easier with disc/MW combo and/or Protpal/BrM for "bonus" heals and DPS. Putting it into those perspectives (I.E. the ones that matter), there is no room for a vastly underwhelimg proc, designed solely to lessen the penatly on bad play.

    Now, if your group is still working on normals or early heroics, and is not a top-tier progression guild, then sure the tank cape might be useful. But I sit next to our disc priest to raid, and she tells me when she's gotta run/be OOR and I plan accordingly. Using VOIP means that everyone can and should be aware of what's going on, rendering the cape proc all but useless except for cheesing encounters.
    That makes sense, thank you.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Amuramie View Post
    Okay, thanks for clarifying, but I still think you're exaggerating. Completely worthless stats? It shares 33% of its stats with the DPS cloak. Count the reforge and it shares (if my math is right) 46% of its stats with the DPS cloak. The trash of trash? Come on, now.
    So wasting 54% of the stats of the cloak into the dustbin makes it okay? Not to mention that 33% (or 71% of the useful stats) of the stats on tank cloak is mastery, while it is not a bad stat, and arguably on of our strongest survival stats, it is still not our most desired stat. You are basically trading dodge and parry for haste, expertise(through reforging) and crit. If 66% of the stats of an item is complete garbage and the other 33% of it is okay but not the best, before reforging of course, that item is not well itemized. Simple as that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amuramie View Post
    This is where I started wondering if you're just purposefully being antagonistic. I never suggested more DPS is bad, I asked you to defend your stance that extra DPS was going to be meaningful.
    Not trying to be an antagonist at all. To me defending that more dps is useful is like supporting a claim that red is a color. Extra dps is always meaningful. It is hard to say how meaningful it is going to be since that is all fight dependant. Higher dps means healers can waste more mana since the fight is shorter making the healing easier. Higher dps can mean that x add die before y add spawns, a phase ends 1 second earlier, boss/add dies 1 second earlier preventing them from casting another spell that would wipe the raid, etc etc. There are just so many situations where that extra dps is just game breaking, and in every other scenario, it is still useful. The faster something dies the less time people have to screw up.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  6. #46
    Well the tank cloak may allow you to get away with 'overstacking' certain debuffs like on Ji'Kun , Animus or Twins - and due to that allow you to solo tank bosses that would otherwise require a second tank or in the case of animus save you from having to perform annoying tank swaps.

    For regular getting hit in the face by auto attacks it obviously isn't going to mean much.
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Well the tank cloak may allow you to get away with 'overstacking' certain debuffs like on Ji'Kun , Animus or Twins - and due to that allow you to solo tank bosses that would otherwise require a second tank or in the case of animus save you from having to perform annoying tank swaps.

    For regular getting hit in the face by auto attacks it obviously isn't going to mean much.
    FWIW, I think the tank cape would be great on a DK. Bringing this up because I know you play one, as do I. If those big nukes are on 30 sec intervals, you can soak THREE extra stacks between cape/purg/cape.

    Anyhow, agreed that short of using the cape for its [likely] unintended purpose of cheesing a stacking debuff or big nuke, it's quite lackluster for the majority of content and users.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  8. #48
    Why is the argument Haste+Mastery > Dodge+Parry? Both cloaks have Mastery, so it really should be is Crit+Haste > Dodge+Parry. Difference between the cloaks in terms of Haste will be about 500 rating with the possible reforging and gemming. Doubt people will be worried about Hit/Expertise that much with how much Hit/Expertise currently provided and will be provided in next tier's gear.

    This isn't to say that the Tank cloak will be the best option between the Tank and Strength DPS cloaks.

  9. #49
    Time to expand the saying: "Dead dps does no dps" to "Dead tank does no dps and wipes the group".

    It will always feel wrong to me to focus on dps over survivability no matter how engaging the class feels now. I guess this was the final evolutionary step away from block capping of 4.x to control play of 5.x created by the "two roll of hit/miss&block/notblocked".

    At this point Blizzard needs to remove dodge/parry from gear choices for all paladin tanks so as to prevent "bad choices" determined by the community or Blizzard need to make dodge/parry more effective than crit (which really shouldn't be that hard). Or they should just not have a tank cloak.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy View Post
    Time to expand the saying: "Dead dps does no dps" to "Dead tank does no dps and wipes the group".
    Agree. BUT. Tanks don't die. Playing well, we're the last ones standing, which has been the point all along, that we don't need what the proc offers. Given some of the mechanics that DPS/heals have to deal with while performing their role, it may actually be beneficial to see THEM get the tank capes, while tanks opt for the DPS ones. /crazypills.

    It will always feel wrong to me to focus on dps over survivability no matter how engaging the class feels now. I guess this was the final evolutionary step away from block capping of 4.x to control play of 5.x created by the "two roll of hit/miss&block/notblocked".
    While I won't dive into the "tanks shouldn't DPS!" mentality that seems to be holding on in pockets of the community, I would like to clarify that we (well, most of us that know what we are doing, anyway) are NOT forsaking survivability for DPS. We establish a baseline amount of stamina, mastery, and AM uptime to be survivable FIRST. Then, once that happens (which happens pretty early, depending on personal and raid skill levels), we start to look at other ways to improve raid contributions. If we're already not dying, we can't die less, so the big option here is damage throughput and/or HPS throughput. Haste provides both survival (via HPS and AM uptime increases) AND DPS.

    So, while it's anyone's right to like/adhere to/want a certain "theme" or "archetype" in the game, it doesn't mean that it is the best or [most] correct one.

    At this point Blizzard needs to remove dodge/parry from gear choices for all paladin tanks so as to prevent "bad choices" determined by the community or Blizzard need to make dodge/parry more effective than crit (which really shouldn't be that hard). Or they should just not have a tank cloak.
    Could not agree with you more, brother. Sadly, as posted by Blizz, they "don't agree that dodge/parry is bad". How they can manage to get their heads that far in the sand is beyond me, but all we can do is continue to express how poor of stats they are, how much they are rejected and refused, and how subpar and counterproductive they are to the most amazing and skillful tanking system introduced to the game in the last decade (being AM).
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy View Post
    Time to expand the saying: "Dead dps does no dps" to "Dead tank does no dps and wipes the group".

    It will always feel wrong to me to focus on dps over survivability no matter how engaging the class feels now. I guess this was the final evolutionary step away from block capping of 4.x to control play of 5.x created by the "two roll of hit/miss&block/notblocked".

    At this point Blizzard needs to remove dodge/parry from gear choices for all paladin tanks so as to prevent "bad choices" determined by the community or Blizzard need to make dodge/parry more effective than crit (which really shouldn't be that hard). Or they should just not have a tank cloak.
    I dont think anyone is argueing dps > survival, however survival implies that there is actually a risk to die. Of course it is also a balance. If you take it to the extreme, even if you are having problems surviving on a boss, you would take 10000 crit rating over 100 stamina any day. Now that is of course extremely exaggarated, but it shows that there is one limit where dps > survival even if you have survival issues.

    To take that to another extreme. If the Blizzard Fairy came down and gave you a magical buff that gave you 100 million base hp, you would likely not get more stamina since survival is not an issue, you would get damage stats.

    So the question is, how big survival gain is the tank cloak proc (and how big survival loss is the loss of useful stats), and how big dps gain is the dps cloak?

    Also, is survival even an issue? All tank deaths often boils down to either the tank or the healers playing very very bad. In that case you have bigger issues than what cloak you use.

    Survival > Dps > Useless 'survivability increase'.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    FWIW, I think the tank cape would be great on a DK. Bringing this up because I know you play one, as do I. If those big nukes are on 30 sec intervals, you can soak THREE extra stacks between cape/purg/cape.

    Anyhow, agreed that short of using the cape for its [likely] unintended purpose of cheesing a stacking debuff or big nuke, it's quite lackluster for the majority of content and users.
    Knowing blizzard and their amazing coding both purg and cloak will proc at the same time <_<

  13. #53
    Been tanking 25 man heroic running low stamina, maximum haste. I havn't needed this proc and I wont need it in the future. Timing your SoTR is key, If you do that right then you really can't go wrong.
    Paladins take very little damage with a disc priest on your back, good sotr timing and refreshing sacred shield correctly. (I use Thecks weak auras string to track this)
    I would far rather contribute more to the overall raid dps than take a proc thats going to more than likely go off when i've already hit ardent defender as a counter.
    It's very easy to foresee any damage coming in that is going to kill you with the likes of dbm and bigwigs these days.
    I have no doubt this proc will come in handy as a good safety net for the more inexperienced players and see it as a good addition in that respect, but for getting the maximum from your toon the dps cloak is the one I personally see as the optimal choice.

    ---------- Post added 2013-07-02 at 12:57 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Survival > Dps > Useless 'survivability increase'.
    I agree with this, the cloak to me falls in line with that useless proc from the tanking meta too.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronus View Post
    Been tanking 25 man heroic running low stamina, maximum haste. I havn't needed this proc and I wont need it in the future. Timing your SoTR is key, If you do that right then you really can't go wrong.
    Paladins take very little damage with a disc priest on your back, good sotr timing and refreshing sacred shield correctly. (I use Thecks weak auras string to track this)
    I would far rather contribute more to the overall raid dps than take a proc thats going to more than likely go off when i've already hit ardent defender as a counter.
    It's very easy to foresee any damage coming in that is going to kill you with the likes of dbm and bigwigs these days.
    I have no doubt this proc will come in handy as a good safety net for the more inexperienced players and see it as a good addition in that respect, but for getting the maximum from your toon the dps cloak is the one I personally see as the optimal choice.

    ---------- Post added 2013-07-02 at 12:57 AM ----------



    I agree with this, the cloak to me falls in line with that useless proc from the tanking meta too.
    The only thing I wonder about in your example of never really dying, since I don't tank, is why wouldn't you just create and aura to track the tank proc's CD and save ardent defender or whatever for something else? Basically meaning you offensively used the cloak as a real tanking CD like anything else instead of just keeping it as a life saver for bad play. Seems like an amazing tool for a smart tank on any boss that can deliver a one shot somehow.
    Last edited by Turkey One; 2013-07-02 at 12:10 AM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    The only thing I wonder about in your example of never really dying, since I don't tank, is why wouldn't you just create and aura to track the tank proc's CD and save ardent defender or whatever for something else? Basically meaning you offensively used the cloak as a real tanking CD like anything else instead of just keeping it as a life saver for bad play. Seems like an amazing tool for a smart tank on any boss that can deliver a one shot somehow.
    If you can deal with said one-shot ability with a cooldown instead of the cloak proc you would get more vengeance resulting in more hps, aps and dps.
    You would also be able to pick up the dps cloak which is better itemized giving you additionally more hps, aps, dps and HoPo regen.
    Couple that with you also would get the dps proc for further increased dps.

    Basically, if you can deal with an ability, deal with it, it will help you more.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    The only thing I wonder about in your example of never really dying, since I don't tank, is why wouldn't you just create and aura to track the tank proc's CD and save ardent defender or whatever for something else? Basically meaning you offensively used the cloak as a real tanking CD like anything else instead of just keeping it as a life saver for bad play. Seems like an amazing tool for a smart tank on any boss that can deliver a one shot somehow.
    While that is true, it depends too much on the abilities, if say it's some "uber large hit for 99.99% of tank health in magical dmg here" that happens every 61 sec it might be good.
    But on a lot of fight from what it seems, instead of 1 huge hit, it's a few smaller ones, which still have a good chance of gibbing you.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    While that is true, it depends too much on the abilities, if say it's some "uber large hit for 99.99% of tank health in magical dmg here" that happens every 61 sec it might be good.
    But on a lot of fight from what it seems, instead of 1 huge hit, it's a few smaller ones, which still have a good chance of gibbing you.
    Atleast from my experience, it is very common to get a huge hit bringing to low only to have a couple of small hits finishing you off

    With very common I of course mean very rare, but those times that you actually die this seems to be one of the most common occurances.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Atleast from my experience, it is very common to get a huge hit bringing to low only to have a couple of small hits finishing you off

    With very common I of course mean very rare, but those times that you actually die this seems to be one of the most common occurances.
    Basically what i was saying. Havent seen a single mechanic like this so far. (At least in what i've seen in testing)

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    While that is true, it depends too much on the abilities, if say it's some "uber large hit for 99.99% of tank health in magical dmg here" that happens every 61 sec it might be good.
    But on a lot of fight from what it seems, instead of 1 huge hit, it's a few smaller ones, which still have a good chance of gibbing you.
    We got a 40% magic reducing shield wall on a 30 sec cd, I'd sill choose the dps cloak, even in that extreme scenario...

  20. #60
    Both of them are really good for progression, the tanking one could safe you long enough so the healers can control the situation and the DPS just give flatout more damage which is more important in 10 man. Depended how much more is the question.

    Although I do think the tanking one falls short due the loads amount of constant AoE damage most bosses are doing in the Siege of Orgrimmar and the proc might have been for nothing.
    Last edited by Ashenheim; 2013-07-02 at 08:15 AM.

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