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  1. #1
    Bloodsail Admiral Waervyn's Avatar
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    How challenging is the combat?

    Hey!

    I've been thinking of getting into GW2. At the moment I'm playing TSW and Tera casually.
    The combat of the game seems to be pretty fun. I looked up the Mesmer, and it seems like my cup of tea. The skill descriptions on the GW2 site are pretty nice, however I wonder...how hard is the content actually? Or maybe hard is the wrong word. When you're killing monsters...how braindead can you be?

    I'm basically looking for a game were even basic monsters can be a challenge (maybe a bit like in Dark Souls?). The portal video of the mesmer looks awesome, where the mesmer is confusing a monster by keeping teleporting to the other side of the battlefield and then blasting it. Do you really need these tactics, or does it, in the end, boil down to spamming the same skills over and over until the monster dies?

    Hope this rambling post makes a slight bit of sense! Thanks for your time
    My recently created science blog about ants: AntyScience

  2. #2
    PVE in this game is braindead and designed for casuals so everyone can feel like a hero (WvW too). You just need to run around and spam AOE whereever you see ppl on lvl 80 in openworld and in dungeons you dont need to be good to do it.

    BUT the combat itself have a very high skillcurve - in PVP (sPVP,tPVP) you will find always someone who is better than you and you will after lots of games still explore new things.
    You have only 5 skills per weapon and 3 utility skills + 1 heal and 1 elite BUT in this game you can combine skills with your other skills or skills with your teammates in Combos which need a long time to master and you never will use or know them all. And the combat itself is very fast paced - more like an shooter than the "normal" mmo like wow. After tons of games in sPVP you fall asleep should you start a wow bg or arena.

    anyway - combat is fine and very nice for sPVP but problem is arenanet fails hard in devlopment for spvp and there are NO updates on content for the players - only some useless shiet like spectator mode or customarenas you have to pay for so they can go E-Spoooort. But the normal player have only 1 gamemode on 5? maps since release and most PVPers are bored to death and have left the game.

    There are not many PVPers left in Guildwars2 (you can see it on open games for complete europe or amerika) and there is no hope anytime soon.

    hope could help you and have a nice day
    Last edited by Inora; 2013-06-30 at 10:59 AM.

  3. #3
    Not very.

    The game's combat is heavily movement based. There are few limitations to movement in combat. So the majority of monsters, bosses and encounters in the game can be won while circle strafing around an enemy as one auto attacks a mob(s) to death. As needed one dodges and heals.

    Auto attack is pretty important to GW2 by design as well. It is often the attack a build relies on for primary damage delivery or the attack that sets up a damage salvo. A good portion of skills are situational, have cooldowns or both. Don't confuse auto attack here with that of the white damage swings of ye ol' Everquest. Auto attack is a major facet of gameplay. The entire movement system kinda doesn't work without it.

    The ideas behind combat in GW2 are excellent: free movement, collision, projectile travel time, etc. But the gameplay is rather shallow. It's perhaps the most shallow combat of a major MMO in the current market. The game as a whole is extremely slight.

    "Braindead" would not be an inappropriate description of the play mechanics in practice.

    This is regarding PVE.

  4. #4
    Opinions are different, but, I suggest you to wait for next free trial weekend and try yourself.

  5. #5
    Bloodsail Admiral Waervyn's Avatar
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    Thanks all!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    The game as a whole is extremely slight.

    "Braindead" would not be an inappropriate description of the play mechanics in practice.
    I'm not a native english speaker, with 'extremely slight', do you mean there's not much meat to the game at all?
    If so, do you still enjoy it (and why/why not?)

    I tend to agree with your opinions on this forum, that's why I ask
    My recently created science blog about ants: AntyScience

  6. #6
    I wouldn't really say the combat is challenging, but GW2 combat pretty much ruined every other MMO for me. There's something about it that feels so right.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by grandpab View Post
    I wouldn't really say the combat is challenging, but GW2 combat pretty much ruined every other MMO for me. There's something about it that feels so right.
    Indeed. The only other mmo combat that I can play now is Vindictus. But standard mmo combat, I just can't do it. I end up stopping after 5 minutes of playing.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Inora View Post
    PVE in this game is braindead and designed for casuals so everyone can feel like a hero (WvW too). You just need to run around and spam AOE whereever you see ppl on lvl 80 in openworld and in dungeons you dont need to be good to do it.
    This is pretty much the opposite of the truth, there is a lot of challenging stuff in some explorable dungeon and fractals.. even the new 5man they added last week is too hard for most pugs to clear. The first boss is sort of like Halion but with a phase with 4 beams (2 fast ones you have to jump over) and mobs that grab you. The actual combat rotations are very simple (which suits me, I don't think that complex rotations add anything to MMOs) but there a lot of co-ordination check fights and ones where you have to react very quickly to not die.

    I can't comment on spvp but WvW is kind of what you make of it.. you can run around in a zerg facerolling or you can go look for proper fights yourself. You see a lot of bunker builds just running around enemy territory teasing newbies.
    Last edited by laserguns; 2013-06-30 at 08:37 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Not very.

    The game's combat is heavily movement based. There are few limitations to movement in combat. So the majority of monsters, bosses and encounters in the game can be won while circle strafing around an enemy as one auto attacks a mob(s) to death. As needed one dodges and heals.

    Auto attack is pretty important to GW2 by design as well. It is often the attack a build relies on for primary damage delivery or the attack that sets up a damage salvo. A good portion of skills are situational, have cooldowns or both. Don't confuse auto attack here with that of the white damage swings of ye ol' Everquest. Auto attack is a major facet of gameplay. The entire movement system kinda doesn't work without it.

    The ideas behind combat in GW2 are excellent: free movement, collision, projectile travel time, etc. But the gameplay is rather shallow. It's perhaps the most shallow combat of a major MMO in the current market. The game as a whole is extremely slight.

    "Braindead" would not be an inappropriate description of the play mechanics in practice.

    This is regarding PVE.
    I heavily disagree. Don't get me wrong, you are right that movement is extremely important in GW2, but auto-attack isnt nearly as important to most builds as you make it seem (its just steady background damage) and the game is the opposite of "braindead" when compared to the genre... Trinity games playing a DPS, now THATS "braindead". Just keep pressing your buttons in the order you memorized and move with the rest of your group on preplanned triggers.

    Personally, I cannot go back to traditional MMOs after playin GW2, the gameplay bores me to death. GW2 PvE requires you to be on your toes, alert to stuff comming your way, and actively keep yourself alive at the same time you gotta CC at the same time you gotta heal at the same time you gotta DPS. If thats braindead to you, I'm afraid you are level Sheldon and no video game will ever satisfy you.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikijih View Post
    I heavily disagree. Don't get me wrong, you are right that movement is extremely important in GW2, but auto-attack isnt nearly as important to most builds as you make it seem (its just steady background damage) and the game is the opposite of "braindead" when compared to the genre... Trinity games playing a DPS, now THATS "braindead". Just keep pressing your buttons in the order you memorized and move with the rest of your group on preplanned triggers.

    Personally, I cannot go back to traditional MMOs after playin GW2, the gameplay bores me to death. GW2 PvE requires you to be on your toes, alert to stuff comming your way, and actively keep yourself alive at the same time you gotta CC at the same time you gotta heal at the same time you gotta DPS. If thats braindead to you, I'm afraid you are level Sheldon and no video game will ever satisfy you.
    Ranger all builds rely on 1spam; guardian sword, scepter, staff; war axe,sword,hammer;mesmer gs; necro dagger, scepter

    Basically all "max" dps builds rely on 1spam (nade engi and sw mes excluded) so yea, it does come down to one spam. With the exception of ele (not rlly true since thor hammer also is one-spam) and thief (has to hit 5 once in the blue moon to stealth and BS)

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    Ranger all builds rely on 1spam; guardian sword, scepter, staff; war axe,sword,hammer;mesmer gs; necro dagger, scepter

    Basically all "max" dps builds rely on 1spam (nade engi and sw mes excluded) so yea, it does come down to one spam. With the exception of ele (not rlly true since thor hammer also is one-spam) and thief (has to hit 5 once in the blue moon to stealth and BS)
    Wait ele summon weapons are viable now?

    Also Skills are a bit too situational, we need more

  12. #12
    Thor hammer is a very old build. It basically became extra viable when they added summoned weapon stat bonuses.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    Ranger all builds rely on 1spam; guardian sword, scepter, staff; war axe,sword,hammer;mesmer gs; necro dagger, scepter

    Basically all "max" dps builds rely on 1spam (nade engi and sw mes excluded) so yea, it does come down to one spam. With the exception of ele (not rlly true since thor hammer also is one-spam) and thief (has to hit 5 once in the blue moon to stealth and BS)
    I'll be honest I havnt played ranger, but I'll disagree once more and reiterate my stance: auto-attack is background damage. Yes, it is a part of every build, but no, it is not central to most builds. For one, "max dps" builds are usually trash in GW2. Glass Cannons dont live long in this game. Unless of course you simply meant "the highest damage weapon combo for the class", in which case I will still disagree.

    Fights are won and lost through burst, CC and well timed utility, not steady DPS. Auto-attack is the "steady DPS" component of all those builds. Rather its just the base upon which a good player will build his offensive and defensive moves. Its a platform, not a decisive element.

    A guardian might get the most damage out of his auto-attack in the end, but the burst that wins him fights is his Spin-to-win. A necro might see his dagger's auto-attack be the biggest part of his DPS, but its his ability to keep himself alive through appropriate use of health-siphons and death shroud that makes him better than another. A messmer might be "spamming" his GS "1" attack, but in the end its his fantasms and/or shatters that gets him up there on the K/D board. A warrior's sword attacks are cool and all, but its his ability to set up his 1000-swords attack that makes or break the game for him.

    Autoattacks are omnipresent, I agree. But they are not "important".
    Last edited by Nikijih; 2013-06-30 at 10:20 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikijih View Post
    I'll be honest I havnt played ranger, but I'll disagree once more and reiterate my stance: auto-attack is background damage. Yes, it is a part of every build, but no, it is not central to most builds. For one, "max dps" builds are usually trash in GW2. Glass Cannons dont live long in this game. Unless of course you simply meant "the highest damage weapon combo for the class", in which case I will still disagree.

    Fights are won and lost through burst, CC and well timed utility, not steady DPS. Auto-attack is the "steady DPS" component of all those builds. Rather its just the base upon which a good player will build his offensive and defensive moves. Its a platform, not a decisive element.

    A guardian might get the most damage out of his auto-attack in the end, but the burst that wins him fights is his Spin-to-win. A necro might see his dagger's auto-attack be the biggest part of his DPS, but its his ability to keep himself alive through appropriate use of health-siphons and death shroud that makes him better than another. A messmer might be "spamming" his GS "1" attack, but in the end its his fantasms and/or shatters that gets him up there on the K/D board. A warrior's sword attacks are cool and all, but its his ability to set up his 1000-swords attack that makes or break the game for him.

    Autoattacks are omnipresent, I agree. But they are not "important".
    You seem to be talking PvP, this would be beside the point entirely since no rotations exist in PvP...

    @Zito
    Here's the thor build.
    If you have that build + a war and a ranger (who are built properly) you get 100% crit chance 142% crit damage and over 3.5k power (add bloodlust and you get 3750, add might and you get 4625) and 70% more damage (90% if foes are below 33%) with the kicker that the lightning hammer has the best skill modifiers of all skills
    Last edited by Meledelion; 2013-06-30 at 10:48 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    You seem to be talking PvP.
    Yes, I am indeed talking about PvP because thats usually the part of the game that requires you to play to your best (PvE being relatively easy in GW2 and me being tired enough to have missed the part where he was talking about killing monsters). Of course, nothing stops you in PvE from just using defensive spells and killing stuff with your auto-attack, granted that'll take a while.

    But even then I would say that the fact that you have to constantly dodge stuff, keep yourself alive and mind your positioning makes GW2's PvE more involving than most traditional MMO's I've played. People like to pretend that more buttons = more interesting gameplay, but the truth of it is that repeating a specific 5-8 key rotation over and over and over again while waiting for big bold red letters telling me to move in a pre-selected direction is hardly interesting to me.

    Most MMOs will test how good you are at pressing buttons in order. GW2 tests how good you are at timing your button presses.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikijih View Post
    Yes, I am indeed talking about PvP because thats usually the part of the game that requires you to play to your best (PvE being relatively easy in GW2 and me being tired enough to have missed the part where he was talking about killing monsters). Of course, nothing stops you in PvE from just using defensive spells and killing stuff with your auto-attack, granted that'll take a while.

    But even then I would say that the fact that you have to constantly dodge stuff, keep yourself alive and mind your positioning makes GW2's PvE more involving than most traditional MMO's I've played. People like to pretend that more buttons = more interesting gameplay, but the truth of it is that repeating a specific 5-8 key rotation over and over and over again while waiting for big bold red letters telling me to move in a pre-selected direction is hardly interesting to me.

    Most MMOs will test how good you are at pressing buttons in order. GW2 tests how good you are at timing your button presses.
    I'll "refine" what was said to :"In PvE it all comes down to auto-attacks" now we can all be happy

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    I'll "refine" what was said to :"In PvE it all comes down to auto-attacks" now we can all be happy
    I applaud your attempt at a conciliation of our opinions but sadly i'll once again disagree hahaha
    1) I feel PvE comes down to surviving/dodging stuff much more than it is about dealing the most damage. The lack of a tank really put a big strain on the player to keep himself alive, which is what he will spend most of his active gameplay on.
    2) Many builds dont rely on auto-attacks at all. Conditions builds, for exemple, or ground based builds (Wells/Symbols). My Phantasm Mesmer deals squat in terms of damage compared to his Dueler and Beserker's output. In its case, for exemple, PvE comes down to adequate clone generation.

  18. #18
    1. Totally beside the point. It's about after surviving, how do you optimise dps? And that comes down to 111111111
    2. If you're going to base yourself of bad builds to begin with there's really no grounds for discussion. Condition builds are not max dmg builds and thus don't matter. Phantasm builds are poop in comparison to shatter builds so again don't matter. Same goes for symbol and well builds. The best necro build atm is dagger auto-attack (who would've guessed) and for guards it's sword auto-attack (surprise...)

    Every "max dps" build out there relies on 111111 (mes sw being the exception since 2 is more important there +f1 and grenade engis 4>2>1) Ranger sw =1111, war axe =11111, nec dag = 11111, guard sw = 11111, ele thor = 11111, thief dd = 11111

    So if you use the best build per prof you get 6/8 rely on 11111 that's 75% so its safe to say that "Auto attack is pretty important to GW2 by design as well." without taking into consideration how marginal the dps loss is by not using the other skills on CD.
    Last edited by Meledelion; 2013-06-30 at 11:08 PM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Waervyn View Post
    I'm not a native english speaker, with 'extremely slight', do you mean there's not much meat to the game at all?
    If so, do you still enjoy it (and why/why not?)
    I mean lacking substance. Which is fine. The game is intended to be played with an air casualness.

    I do enjoy the game. It's fun. Not particularly demanding or thoughtful, but still fun to goof around in a bit. Which is what and how the game is designed; to be played without serious intent.

    Great value for money. Solid play experience. Great world presentation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikijih View Post
    the game is the opposite of "braindead" when compared to the genre...
    It isn't. It is exactly the same.

    Pressing a sequence of buttons to deliver damage optimally would be no different in GW2 than in a trinity based MMO. The comparison to a trinity based MMO isn't even relevant. As a trinity class system has no bearing on combat systems in practice or design.

    One could freely develop a combat system however they wished with a trinity system as without. The limitation of a trinity role system is entirely one of exclusion by job. Or role, rather.

    You actually can't play GW2 any other way either. GW2's class design is often more reductive than most MMOs too.

    Can not disagree with gameplay. Gameplay is 100% objective truth.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-06-30 at 11:29 PM. Reason: phone formatting. grr.

  20. #20
    1. Totally beside the point. It's about after surviving, how do you optimise dps? And that comes down to 111111111
    2. If you're going to base yourself of bad builds to begin with there's really no grounds for discussion. Condition builds are not max dmg builds and thus don't matter. Phantasm builds are poop in comparison to shatter builds so again don't matter. Same goes for symbol and well builds. The best necro build atm is dagger auto-attack (who would've guessed) and for guards it's sword auto-attack (surprise...)
    1) Thats not besides the point at all. His question wasnt "how do i optimise my dps?", it was "how challenging is the combat?". Surviving is a big part of that challenge, and if you ignore that, you will have a terrible time in GW2.
    2) This isnt WoW, quit it with the min/max mentality, it just doesn't apply here. Condition builds, ground builds, phantasm builds (or even shatter builds as you point out) are all more than viable. Are they the best possible DPS? No. But guess what, thats not what GW2 is about.

    You seem to have completely misread my posts, i suggest you go back. I did not say auto-attack wasnt a big part of your damage, i said its not a big part of the gameplay. His question is about the gameplay. With a few exceptions, you generally don't model your playstyle around your autoattack, you model it around your other tools. Auto-attack is just free steady dps that happens while you do other stuff.

    It isn't. It is exactly the same.

    Pressing a sequence of buttons to deliver damage optimally would be no different than in GW2.

    You actually can't play GW2 any other way. GW2's class design is often more reductive than most MMOs too.

    You can not disagree with gameplay. Gameplay is 100% objective truth.
    Since when do they make trolls moderators? "Gameplay is objective" is nothing but empty rethoric when what is discussed is your own opinion of how challenging that gameplay is like, which is far from objective, as demonstrates the fact that I have a completely different opinion of it. Just because you believe something to be true doesnt make it an objective truth... thats called "hubris".

    Pressing a sequence of buttons in an environement with (A) no mobs ever trying to hit you and (B) movement being planned ahead and synchronized through mods is VERY DIFFERENT from pressing a sequence of buttons in a dynamic environement you must navigate haphazardly.
    Last edited by Nikijih; 2013-06-30 at 11:45 PM.

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