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  1. #21
    Pit Lord barackopala's Avatar
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    When people say the pve elements are braindead I'm feeling a bit worried if they did the AR dungeon or done any fotm post 30.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikijih View Post
    Since when do they make trolls moderators?
    I don't go in for this. If you can't reply respectfully then do not post on these forums.

    "Gameplay is objective" means absolutely nothing when what is discussed is your own interpretation/opinion of what that gameplay is like, which is far from objective, as demonstrates the fact that I have a completely different opinion of it.
    No, it is not opinion.

    Gameplay is an objective truth. Absolutely. There is no opinion involved whatesoever. Gameplay can be produced and reproduced exactly, and according to a definite set of criteria that is programmed as the rules of the play environment.

    One can say they find this or that element of gameplay "boring" or "fun" as they please. That would be opinion. No problem.

    The operation of pressing the 1 key is object fact by the rules of the game. There is no opinion in that operation.

    If ye old trinity Warrior presses 123123123 in sequence to deliver necessary damage, there is no effective difference in gameplay than I pressing 4242424242 as a Warrior in GW2.

    Enemies attacking a player is immaterial to the discussion if it has no effect on the output of a damage producing sequence. Which only is the case for displacing and reflective abilities in GW2- the exact same set of circumstance in many MMOs, of trinity and non-trinity variants. Mind you.

    Mods are also of no relevance. Third party tools have no place in a discussion on game design. There is only the game as designed.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-06-30 at 11:56 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by barackopala View Post
    When people say the pve elements are braindead I'm feeling a bit worried if they did the AR dungeon or done any fotm post 30.
    I've done lvl 39 fotm with 0 AR (couldn't do 40).

    It's braindead you just have to dodge that one attack that will one shot you.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    I don't go in for this. If you can't reply respectfully then do not post on these forums.

    No, it is not opinion.

    Gameplay is an objective truth. Absolutely. There is no opinion involved whatesoever. Gameplay can is produced and reproduced exactly, and according to a definite set of criteria that is programmed as the rules of the play environment.

    On can say they find gameplay "boring" or "fun" as they please. That would be opinion.

    The operation of pressing the 1 key is object fact by the rules of the game. There is no opinion that.

    If ye old trinity Warrior presses 123123123 in sequence to deliver necessary damage, there is no effective difference in gameplay than I pressing 424242 as a Warrior in GW2.

    Enemies are attacking a player is immaterial to the discussion if it has no effect on output of damage producing sequence. Which only is the case for displacing and reflective abilities in GW2- the exact same set of circumstance in many MMOs, of trinity and non-trinity variants. Mind you.

    Mods are also of no relevance. Third party tools have no place in a discussion on game design. There is only the game as designed.
    So essentially your stance is "If we only focuse on things in a vacuum i'm right!"?

    1) Gameplay is truth doesnt mean anything. Its not even a syntaxically correct sentence. Gameplay is truth, but our opinion on how challenging gameplay is is not. What is easy for you is not for others. What is easy for others might not be for you. Also, not everyone focus on the same things. That other guy, for exemple, seems obsessed by min/maxing his DPS. Another, for exemple, will focus on surviving as long as possible, or being able to bring as much support to the group as possible, etc, all of which introduces variance in how the gameplay is precieved.

    2) The operation of pressing 1 is fact. How central that is to the gameplay is up for debate, wether you agree or not. Acting like that gameplay is the same no matter what class or build you play doesnt help your case.

    3) Ennemies attacking players have a huge effect on the output of damage producing sequence because it forces the player to move away from maximizing DPS and turn towards temporarely maximizing survivability. Try to tunnel vision on your DPS rotation while getting hit by 2-3 mobs and look in wonder at your toon going down.

    4) mods are of big relevance. If you think you can separate third party tools and game design, you should perhaps glean a few lessons from the WoW experience. Mods modify the gameplay, modifies the balance, and modifies the design. Ignoring them is as self-defeating as it gets. Things like Dispeller and DBM forced Blizzard to redesign their games often enough that anyone should understand by now how big an impact mods have on the gaming experience. Its the difference between having to pay attention to moves being telegraphed vs being able to tunnel vision your rotation while relying on a mod to yell at you when its time to move.
    As a trinity class system has no bearing on combat systems in practice or design.
    5) Yes, the trinity has a HUGE bearing. I have a hard time taking you seriously after reading this.... Im not even sure how to argue this or where to start because it is so deeply wrong that I feel I would have to explain to you the basics of how RPGs work... The short of it is, when you can hide behind a tank and rely on a healer to live, your gameplay is going be very different than someone who has none of those things. It means each character needs to be more autonomous and self-sufficient, it means each player is responsible for his own survival, and it means you will all be playing very differently than if you were raiding in a traditional MMO.

    Honestly, you ask for respect, but respect is won, its not a given. When you make such claims that defy all logic and reasoning then attempt to force it down people's throat by pretending you are talking about objective things when you are not, you are the one disrespecting every intelligent being in this thread and on these forums. Im sorry but I do not respect your arrogant holier-than-thou attitude and you'll just have to live with it.
    Last edited by Nikijih; 2013-07-01 at 01:30 AM.

  5. #25
    Pit Lord barackopala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikijih View Post
    Since when do they make trolls moderators? "Gameplay is objective" is nothing but empty rethoric when what is discussed is your own opinion of how challenging that gameplay is like, which is far from objective, as demonstrates the fact that I have a completely different opinion of it. Just because you believe something to be true doesnt make it an objective truth... thats called "hubris".
    You realize that the word you just used is prohibited in this forum right?
    Gameplay is totally objective, gameplay based on QTE is gameplay based on QTE, no posibility to argue about it or discuss about how much the game takes the control of your character for you.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by barackopala View Post
    You realize that the word you just used is prohibited in this forum right?
    Gameplay is totally objective, gameplay based on QTE is gameplay based on QTE, no posibility to argue about it or discuss about how much the game takes the control of your character for you.
    It's a shame so many discussions break down into arguing over semantics. As an example, in a thread discussing gameplay difficulty, the idea that gameplay mechanics are objective doesn't really matter. So many threads just get derailed in these kind of things.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikijih View Post
    So essentially your stance is...
    You are free to disagree on opinions- which I did give.

    Disagreeing on how gameplay functions is willful ignorance. And that is only your error.

    It is always incorrect to talk about how gameplay functions as anything but a hard fact. It could never be otherwise.

    1) Gameplay is truth doesnt mean anything...
    Um, it means something absolutely. As in an absolute.

    When a player presses X, Y happens. All the time. That is gameplay- the literal rules of how the game is played.

    Games only operate on a given rule set that is pre-set. They literally can't work any other way. It's impossible for them to do so. An agent has to input commands, the game has to translate those commands into a series of events, producing more events, etc.

    It is a particular aspect to video games that they are a medium of art which has an element of quantifiable, definite and hard truth to their operation & interaction.

    It is an object truth swinging a sword deals X damage as determined by the programers of a video game. Belief and perception contra can not eradicate the fact(s) of gameplay.

    Now, it is the case that one person's "braindead combat" is another person's "engaging combat". And we can agree or disagree on such things as whether a sword is more badass than an axe, etc, etc.

    Though when we talk on how combat functions- that is a discussion on gameplay. That is not discussing opinion any longer.

    2) The operation of pressing 1 is fact...
    It is the same for comparison purposes. If you want to get into the granularity of combat, it is fine to do that. But you didn't. You refer to other MMOs in a very broad manner.

    When you say something as wide open as "compared to the genre"- then it is a fair comparison to say, and rightly so, that pressing 123123 is no different than 424242.

    A sequence to produce DPS can be produced in many MMOs of the trinity and non-trinity style. That is again, a gameplay operation. A truth regardless of personal belief.

    Pressing 123123 or 424242 and dying to an enemy attack would also be exactly the same- regardless of having a trinity system. See next;

    3) Enemies attacking players have a huge effect on the output of damage...
    You are saying death has an effect on DPS? Often is that not the case in another game type?

    That isn't a sensible comparison, ya' know.

    In Game A:
    A player pushes a sequence defined as 123 to produce X. If a player dies in this process the result is Y.

    In Guild Wars 2:
    A player pushes a sequence defined as 123 to produce X. If a player dies in this process the result is Y.

    There is no difference or relevance to a mob attacking a player unless those attacks are disruptive to the battle sequence in some way. Which is true of both GW2 and other MMOs of differing play environments.

    In Game A:
    A player pushes a sequence defined as 123 to produce X. If a player is interrupted in this process the result is N.

    In Guild Wars 2:
    A player pushes a sequence defined as 123 to produce X. If a player is interrupted in this process the result is N.

    Nothing is different in these circumstances. If you want to point out some granularity, by all means. But again, you didn't. The comparison as above is valid under your broad argument of, "compared to the genre".

    Can you name some agency allowed in Guild Wars 2 that is not present in other MMOs across the genre?

    Logically, if you are a sole DPS role or build in Game A [which has a role trinity for our purposes here] being attacked has the same effect as Guild Wars 2.

    It is not as though GW2 alone allows players tools to deal with direct damage. A fairly common MMO situation in multiple play types.

    4) mods are of big relevance.
    They are not at all. Not one bit.

    Not all MMOs have mods. The majority of MMOs do not support mods, actually.

    Mods are not part of the design of a game's gameplay- they are implemented as third party additions in most cases. Least they would no longer be "mods" or modifications to the default game systems. They would just be default elements at that point.

    World of Warcraft is not all MMOs. The mods, addons and additions that effect the play environments of World of Warcraft are specific to World of Warcraft alone. Neither is the gameplay of World of Warcraft able to be designed with desperate third party elements in mind.

    Blizzard can design around mods, can account for mods. But they can not know or design for mods they have no conception of in idea.

    Unless Blizzard have some sort of predicative powers at their command, how do their designers or DD/T predict what mod developers will add, yet alone what any number of mods in combination will alter, display or reveal?

    Only how a game is designed can be discussed. Not the particular set of mods in a particular game that may or may not differ from the set of mods available in another game.

    It's utter nonsense and incorrect to even consider mods part of the design of a game if they are created by third parties. Even more so when MMOs do not always include or allow for modifications of the game.

    It would be as silly and worthless an argument to mention mods in other MMOs in this discussion as it would be to posit Combat Mode as relevant to the gameplay of GW2 as designed.

    Or any number of mods which alter Skyrim, Diablo 2 or Trial Evolution, etc.

    Those mods are not part of the game as designed. They are additions by third parties in many cases. Additions which no developer can predict or base an entire DD/T around.

    5) Yes, the trinity has a HUGE bearing...
    Role trinity is merely a device [not inherent to RPGs either, fyi]. One can create any dynamic of combat they wish with or without a role trinity.

    With role trinity:

    >If I am being attacked in Rift as a DPS build or role, I have a set of tools to deal with the situation for a given period of time. Ex. Way of the Sun, Fleet of Foot, Jolt, Earthen Shield.
    >If I am being attacked in Tera as a DPS build or role, I have a set of tools to deal with the situation for a given period of time. Ex. Smoke, Parry, Evasive Roll, Defensive Stance, Retaliate
    >If I am being attacked in Radiant Arcana as a DPS build or role, I have a set of tools to deal with the situation for a given period of time.Ex. Shout, Heal, Danger Sense, Wind Bastion

    Without trinity:

    >If I am being attacked in GW2 as a DPS build or role, I have a set of tools to deal with the situation for a given period of time. Ex. Mending, Shake it Off, Riposte, Dolyak Signet, Dodge

    >If I am being attacked in GW1 as a DPS build or role, I have a set of tools to deal with the situation for a given period of time. Ex. Healing, Hammer Bash, Bonetti's Defense, Retreat!


    I ask again, what agency are you allowed in Guild Wars 2 that is not present in other MMOs across the genre?

    Honestly, you ask for respect, but respect is won, its not a given.
    Sorry, you DO have to be respectful to everyone on these forums. That you disagree with me, is fine. I am not crying in my cheerios.

    However, you are not allowed to post in manner that is disrespectful, hateful or indulge in juvenile name calling. We have a whole FAQ on the rules of this forum if you would like to read them.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/faq.php

    Please, behave and post appropriately regardless of differing opinions.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-07-01 at 03:05 AM.

  8. #28
    1) We are not talking of damage composition tables, we are talking about challenge levels and gameplay style. To say "gameplay is truth" is literally useless and meaningless in this context because it doesn't take it into account. As I said over and over again: yes, auto-attack is a big part of your DPS pie. But his question was not "where does most of your DPS comes from?".

    The active gameplay itself doesnt revolve around your other skills. What is playing a dagger necro like. Is it "well you run in and spam autoattack!" or is it "well you run in and try to keep yourself alive while optimizing your life force management and DPS and keeping an eye on possible support you can provide in the shape of CCs or defensive skills"? If it is the later, and I dare submit that it is, then this game is not "all about auto-attacks". You try to make a point that doesnt answer the question by ignoring over half the game (support and survivability).

    2) Again, you seem obsessed with maths. Don't get me wrong, theorycrafting is nice and all, but a game is NOT just math. Yes, the damage is mathematical, but the gameplay itself involves a lot of elements besides damage maximization. If you cannot comprehend this point, I fear that in your quest for knowledge you have lost touch with what gaming is.

    3) Now you are just being willfully misunderstanding, and I don't appreciate it. A player behind a tank and a healer within a scripted and practiced encounter has much less chances of dying due to innatention or DPS tunnel vision than a player that has neither and is faced with haphazardous encounters. Sure, in the end their death both means the same thing. But one of them has to spend a hell of a lot more attention on surviving than the other as he is much more likely to be attacked.

    4) If a game allows modding, and you underestimate the amount of them that do, then that mod is to be taken into consideration. Game design cannot predict mods, thats the very idea of them in the first place, but it must adapt to them, as they do fundamentaly change the core design of those games. In fact, that lesson was so well learned that many MMOs that *dont* allow modding now has many popular mod functionality as a base feature (DPS meters, raid alerts, etc).

    Now the point was that in most raid games i have participated in (wow, rift, swtor, and god knows how many f2p) raid warnings in one form or another was somewhat of a norm. In such a situation, especially in the presence of a tank to ensure they dont draw any aggro and a healer to make sure they are topped off, it allows a DPS to just tunnel vision on his DPS rotation while keeping a minimal attention for various alerts. To me, that is the definition of braindead. You may disagree, but thats not something you can just dismiss out of hand.

    5) Once again you completely missed my point... its not about what tools you CAN use, its about how often you HAVE TO use them. You cannot tell me you seriously believe that a DPS player who is covered by a full blow tank with taunts and aggro tools has as many chances of being targetted as a DPS player who isnt...

    No tank + no dedicated healer = you get targetted more often overall + need to be more self-sufficient = your survivability becomes a bigger part of the gameplay experience. Its simple math, don't you agree?

    6) Ok, fair enough, you are right, guidelines do prohibit me from calling you a troll and it was indeed somewhat of an ad hominem. Altho in my defence, I did genuinely feel trolled, and frankly, I still do. Nevertheless, I shall take it through the proper channels instead of acting juvenilely again as you so eloquently put it. I only hope you realize that acting respectfully doesnt just mean "not swearing or insulting".
    Last edited by Nikijih; 2013-07-01 at 05:02 AM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    Every "max dps" build out there relies on 111111 (mes sw being the exception since 2 is more important there +f1 and grenade engis 4>2>1) Ranger sw =1111, war axe =11111, nec dag = 11111, guard sw = 11111, ele thor = 11111, thief dd = 11111

    So if you use the best build per prof you get 6/8 rely on 11111 that's 75% so its safe to say that "Auto attack is pretty important to GW2 by design as well." without taking into consideration how marginal the dps loss is by not using the other skills on CD.
    The other skills aren't marginal at all really.. for example with a warrior in a 5man you will be weapon swapping every 6? seconds to stack might, using your 2 skill and mace 4 skill on cooldown to stack vulnerability while making sure you don't interrupt the 3rd step of your axe attack chain as doing so resets it, using something like FGJ on cooldown to buff might on the whole group, quickness on cooldown for dps if it's safe do spec/use it, keeping banner up, elite signet on cooldown to keep fury up and more might, double axe 5 skill if there's more than 4 mobs.. plus all the heal/dodge/knockdown/stun break skills you need. So yeah, not really 1111111, even though most of your damage is "white" (as you'd say in WoW) your other skills make those white numbers a lot higher.

    Personally that's enough of a rotation for me, I don't want to have 30 spells at once or anything. I like the focus on the survivability and teamwork aspects of the combat rather than watching DoTs timers and stuff.
    Last edited by laserguns; 2013-07-01 at 07:29 AM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by laserguns View Post
    The other skills aren't marginal at all really.. for example with a warrior in a 5man you will be weapon swapping every 6? seconds to stack might, using your 2 skill and mace 4 skill on cooldown to stack vulnerability while making sure you don't interrupt the 3rd step of your axe attack chain as doing so resets it, using something like FGJ on cooldown to buff might on the whole group, quickness on cooldown for dps if it's safe do spec/use it, keeping banner up, elite signet on cooldown to keep fury up and more might, double axe 5 skill if there's more than 4 mobs.. plus all the heal/dodge/knockdown/stun break skills you need. So yeah, not really 1111111, even though most of your damage is "white" (as you'd say in WoW) your other skills make those white numbers a lot higher.

    Personally that's enough of a rotation for me, I don't want to have 30 spells at once or anything. I like the focus on the survivability and teamwork aspects of the combat rather than watching DoTs timers and stuff.
    You seem the be talking about the gs/axe+mace build which is now outdated and thus irrelevant. The "highest" dps build now appears to be axe+x which consists of just 111111111 eviscerate 1111111111 eviscerate (ad infinitum). Also skills that don't trigger a GCD are never considered part of a rotation. The difference here and in wow is that in wow you'd macro those into your skills while here you have to manually hit them. Frenzy isn't the best dps utility wen running axe.
    You're better off with OMM anyway because that way you you don't lose dps by having to hit 2 and it's impossible for 3wars to cap out vuln without it. You always get a heal and a dodge, they're built in. You don't need kd/stun break skills in PvE at all.

    If you actually are talking about the 30/0/0/10/30 build there's a couple of flaws with the current rotation. At one point you're required to use 2 but it's a huge backset to your dps now since axe has become back-loaded instead of "equal". What I mean by this is that if you hit 2 it then takes 1.75s before your real dmg kicks in. The change making axe back-loaded has vastly hurt it since it now suffers from the same thing many people dislike about GS, if you have to dodge you're screwed.

    You also are misunderstanding what's being said. We didn't say that rotations need to be more complex. We didn't even talk about rotations. What was said was "Auto attack is pretty important to GW2 by design as well." and the build we're discussing relies on auto-attack. The only reason you don't just hit 11111 is due to vulnerability (which is easier/safer to stack using OMM), there's a reason why everyone calls that build boring...

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    You seem the be talking about the gs/axe+mace build which is now outdated and thus irrelevant.
    Nope, talking about using axe+mace/axe+axe which is the highest dps at the moment.

    The "highest" dps build now appears to be axe+x which consists of just 111111111 eviscerate 1111111111 eviscerate (ad infinitum).
    No, it isn't.

    Also skills that don't trigger a GCD are never considered part of a rotation.
    Yes, they are.

    Frenzy isn't the best dps utility wen running axe.
    Good thing you get 3 utility slots and not 1.

    You always get a heal and a dodge, they're built in. You don't need kd/stun break skills in PvE at all.
    Yes, you do on a bunch of fights, unless you want to be "that guy" getting ressed all the time.
    Last edited by laserguns; 2013-07-01 at 01:38 PM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by barackopala View Post
    When people say the pve elements are braindead I'm feeling a bit worried if they did the AR dungeon or done any fotm post 30.
    Been there, done that. Braindead, executed with only one mechanic to worry about which is also easily mitigated with enough agony resistance. Easy mode. Sorry you feel different. And putting more and more mobs like 99.834.853 dredges on higher levels also doesn't make hard dungeon.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by laserguns View Post
    Nope, talking about using axe+mace/axe+axe which is the highest dps at the moment.
    No, it isn't.
    Yes, they are.
    Good thing you get 3 utility slots and not 1.
    Yes, you do on a bunch of fights, unless you want to be "that guy" getting ressed all the time.
    1. Good you know the build, sadly you don't seem to know the mechanics behind it. Axe 2 is a dps loss in comparison to axe 1 (meaning that if you have to keep using axe 2 to keep vuln up you're losing dps (I already explained this in length...)

    2. It is. The fact that you hit a button once every 25 seconds doesn't mean that all of a sudden that's where your dmg revolves around. Axe/mace has 2skills that do the same(or more) amount of dmg as axe 1, that's mace 5 and eviscerate.

    3. Nope. If something doesn't trigger a cd it means you can pop it w/e you want, this means it's impossible to be part of a rotation. As I said, think of macroing skills into other skills in wow...

    4. You need 1banner, fgj + x. That X is the only spot where there's a choice (which isn't really a choice anyway)

    5. "A bunch of fights", can you please list them? I'm curious how long your list will be.

  14. #34
    1) What is this thing about, "If you don't agree with me, you're a troll!" now? It's as common as "u mad bro?" now, it seems.

    2) Some people try really hard to make the combat seem like more than it is. GW2 simply isn't designed to have challenging or deep PvE content. That's not a good or bad thing, it's just the game that the developers wanted to make.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikijih View Post
    1) We are not talking of damage composition tables...
    Have to remind you that it was you who brought up the comparison as a matter of challenge.

    "...the game is the opposite of "braindead" when compared to the genre... Trinity games playing a DPS, now THATS "braindead". Just keep pressing your buttons in the order you memorized and move with the rest of your group on preplanned triggers."

    There is no problem if the above is your opinion. As the post you were replying to was my opinion.

    Are you no longer talking about how damage is delivered as a point of comparison from post #9? Where you specifically took the counter argument of combat being the "opposite of braindead"?

    You did continue on to speak on gameplay and put forth the argument GW2's combat is more involved as a matter of comparison in posts #13, #15, #16 and #20 as well.

    Gameplay can not be an opinion. You can have an opinion on gameplay. But the act of how the game is played is 100% fact.

    So if I say to the OP, "Combat is not very challenging, etc, etc." as here. And you disagree [which is fine] the burden is on you when stating, "keep pressing your buttons in the order you memorized and move with the rest of your group on preplanned triggers." to prove it so.

    As such you, haven't. The comparisons you made were fairly generic and wide open. With no demonstrable difference in one using a sequence of button presses in one game vs. another.

    I would have no issue if you felt the need to demonstrate or detail some agency or granularity of combat design in GW2 which is remarkable "compared to the genre". Go for it.

    Perhaps I might actually agree with you if say you were speaking on the specific mechanic of travel space in GW2 or somesuch.

    However, you did argue about gameplay and damage delivery as a point of comparison.

    2) Again, you seem obsessed with maths...
    Yet again, it was you who brought up DPS roles specifically as a counter point to "braindead" combat. So I was just going off what you were directly comparing.

    Now it seems you want to compare defensive and offensive mechanics as well. I have no issue with that actually- I would enjoy such a discussion under the context of how GW2's combat dynamic offers greater or lesser challenge by comparison to other combat systems.

    We were talking about DPS roles/builds though. To which there is no effective difference in gameplay from a player pressing 1234 or 4242 to apply their skills most effectively. That one might be attacked or is being attacked is immaterial if Game A and GW2 both allow players options under such circumstances. Refer to my earlier post if needed.

    Once again I remind you that gameplay is objective. It can not be anything else- I press 123 or 4242 and X happens. These are facts. They happen exactly. All the time as the game rules permit.

    There is no 'omg youre not getting it! ' possible here. It is a simple fact, the goal of a DPS build/role in GW2 is identical to that of a comparable DPS role/build in a broad sense "compared to the genre".

    3) Now you are just being willfully misunderstanding...
    Right... that would just be a device of the trinity system, as I already stated. The trinity system moves tools of control and mitigation around 3 roles. By exclusion, these roles are intended to work in concert because they can not function in total alone.

    Thus, if a DPS build/role is being attacked in a trinity system there is either a breakdown of roles or a specific game mechanic forcing damage or attention onto the DPS build/role. You are already telling me this is the case by comparing a situation in which a DPS role/build in a trinity system is under the circumstance of being attacked- that is by commonly understood rules of the trinity system, an aberration.

    It is often the case DPS builds/roles have tools to deal with dangerous situations [within the exclusivity of their build/role]. This is the same case in GW2; players in a DPS build/role do have tools to deal with such situations [within the parameters of their build/role].

    Pressing a heal button once ever 30/s in GW2 isn't a more remarkable or demonstrably more challenging mechanic than pressing Weapon Defense in Rift every 30/s. There is also a mechanical principle in GW2 to manage threat and re-position mobs to the same effect [as in trinity based systems] by manipulating Toughness & Vitality combined with range.

    There is the same frequency of damage mitigation given to a DPS role/build in GW2 & trinity based MMOs- every player has a heal, defensive techniques, passive or active healing available to them in GW2.

    If personal upkeep is your true argument here, then we can say there is truth in that argument. As it would be possible for a DPS role/build in GW2 to have fewer tools of mitigation than a comparable DPS role/build in some other MMO. Players are somewhat free to choose their skill loadout in GW2, even if that loadout forgoes mitigation/survival options.

    Though we can not definitively say a DPS role/build has to spend more attention on survival in GW2 over another system. Because it can be the case that a DPS role/build has fewer or greater options when focused or being focused by a monster in GW2.

    Let me explain that a bit more; What if I am playing a role with high defensive or threat options in GW2? Or am able to easily tank damage while delivering my maximum damage or skill potential with a given build [such as wearing Knight or Valkyrie gear]?

    That I am being attacked or focused in GW2 doesn't rule out the capacity to effectively deliver my payload of damage, boons, conditions or whathaveyou. Unless I am displaced, stunned or dead- conditions that effect a player in GW2 equally as many other MMOs when being attacked.

    Even in full offensive gear, using a offensive build I would not necessarily have to do anything special while being attacked in GW2. Such as when I am playing my Sword/Sword Mesmer, I am able to handle DD quite easily with one or two addition button presses from my normal rotation. In the case of a Warrior, I don't have to break damage application actually-- I am still pressing 4242, while effectively tanking a mob due to the mechanics of shouts, regen and so on.

    Just a couple of examples of a class not being up a creek while being attacked in GW2.

    4) If a game allows modding, and you underestimate the amount of them that do...
    That only applies to a few of MMOs. It is not a universal standard or common across the genre. The occurrences you mentioned earlier are not even common in those MMOs with addon support.

    Nor can a game possibly be designed around mods. There is not a developer with enough resources or time to do such. The practicality of doing so would be an enormous cost to development. It could be you are mistaking game design and transitory changes due to modding in MMOs. These are two very different things in video games.

    How a game is designed is apart of all circumstances- even actual play. A game first exists as a working proof known as a DD/T.

    UI elements altered by a mod are not possible to include or discuss in the design of a video game. Simply a game can't be designed with such foreknowledge. Nor can design account for any number of desperate additions that make a game easier, harder, simpler/obtuse, streamlined/clumsy, etc modifications.

    If your version of Game A includes 200 addons and my version includes none, we can't compare that same game based on those modifications. We have to dismiss the third party additions which are not and can not be part of the design of a game.

    5) Once again you completely missed my point...
    I can say [as above] that a DPS player in GW2 is not necessarily in greater danger than in a trinity based MMO. Or even has some greater process of operation.

    Even if I am attacked more often in GW2, I don't have any process or abilities available that are of an order greater or more complex than in other games. One can kite, heal, mitigate, etc while effectively applying damage in trinity based MMOs too.

    It is not necessarily the case that my survival is adverse to the application of damage, status conditions, boons or threat management in GW2. Displacement, stuns and death are the only interruptions of effective skill application in GW2- the same circumstances that effect mitigation, support and tanking roles [dps isn't actually a trinity role, it's a corruption of the system in modern games] in trinity based systems.

    The frequency of being targeted in GW2 is not greater than the tools given to handle to situation. We have those tools in GW2 for a reason, afterall.

    It is also not a given that pressing 6 or double tapping to dodge is a much more demanding process when a GW2 player is being attacked. The game allows almost full movement at all times with most skills having cooldowns.

    If a player is pressing 42424242 while moving about the field of play, it isn't a very rigorous argument that GW2 is designed to be so taxing that pressing 5 elevates combat to levels unseen in an MMO where one is pressing 121212. So I am just as mindlessly pressing 424242 while mixing in some 6 & 8 as a GS Warrior in GW2 as many MMOs out there.

    There can be quite a bit less to think about or consider in GW2 as well. As most skills tend to be rather binary or not dependent on complex setup or maintenance.

  16. #36
    The whole Trinity vs. Non-Trinity as a measure of "difficulty" is also a huge fallacy. (Once that we've covered several times here, actually.)

    Typically whenever the discussion comes up, both sides start throwing out huge, ridiculous caricatures of what the other side is. ("In trinity MMO's, you just fall asleep mashing a DPS rotation because the mob is being tanked and healers heal you through standing in fire!!" versus "In GW2 you just AFK with auto attack on, because there's nothing else to do!")

  17. #37
    The whole Trinity vs. Non-Trinity as a measure of "difficulty" is also a huge fallacy.
    Indeed, it is.

    I think there is too much investment by players in wanting to hold up one system as > or < than the other. When really they are just different models. And that's perfectly okay.

  18. #38
    Brewmaster Waervyn's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the replies! I think I'll buy it
    Does anyone know of cheap places in Europe to buy? Amazon.co.uk seems to have a pretty low price (lower than greenmangaming in any case). Anyone know of others? I'm fine with the digital edition.

    Cheers!
    My recently created science blog about ants: AntyScience

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikijih View Post
    1) We are not talking of damage composition tables, we are talking about challenge levels and gameplay style. To say "gameplay is truth" is literally useless and meaningless in this context because it doesn't take it into account. As I said over and over again: yes, auto-attack is a big part of your DPS pie. But his question was not "where does most of your DPS comes from?".

    The active gameplay itself doesnt revolve around your other skills. What is playing a dagger necro like. Is it "well you run in and spam autoattack!" or is it "well you run in and try to keep yourself alive while optimizing your life force management and DPS and keeping an eye on possible support you can provide in the shape of CCs or defensive skills"? If it is the later, and I dare submit that it is, then this game is not "all about auto-attacks". You try to make a point that doesnt answer the question by ignoring over half the game (support and survivability).
    I am highlighting Nikijih's paragraph here because it's closest to the optimum playstyle and intended playstyle for combat within GW2.

    It's not about straight DPS. Measuring DPS or top DPS doesn't really matter within the confines of combat for this game. The reason the game doesn't have tools to create a DPS chart is not for a lack of people wanting to do it, but because allowing them to do it would be pointless.

    For the OP, it's important to understand something you may sort of have an inkling about.

    Let's have a real talk. MMO PVE players are full of their own BS. I say this from experience of my own play and playing with others. MMO PVE players always cry for challenging content, but then immediately circumnavigate any challenge they run across. How would a raider do without add-ons to tell them exactly what to do and when to do it? How many dungeoning groups skip bosses that can be skipped? How many use a known glitch or exploit to get at loot faster? The very nature of many MMOs have produced a player that is highly invested in rewards gotten with the least amount of effort. They also want recognition for this at the same time. It's a mutually agreed upon hustle. We pretend like what we're doing is challenging and that we aren't taking shortcuts or avoiding challenge whenever possible and then parade around in the rewards we get, thinking any of the playerbase actually cares outside of our little clubhouse of wacky gentlemen.

    Despite many of the tools that created this type of player missing within Guild Wars 2, this behavior and mindset still exists in GW2. You will find many arguments based around the idea that you just spam attacks and dodge (or strafe). Yet, if you are playing your class to its potential, you will find you aren't doing such a thing. How can the "pros" argue one thing while you're being pro in a totally different way? Because you can get to 80 without really learning the nuances of the game's combat mechanics, because there are many boring encounters that can be spammed through, and for some reason (which should be obvious if you understand the true nature of MMO PVE players), the PVE encounter this judgement is based around is how quickly you can complete ONE OF THE EASIEST DUNGEONS IN THE GAME. Yup, the COF1 money run. The argument is basically a difference between beating the dungeon in fifteen minutes or beating it in 13 minutes. To which most people rightly ask, "who cares?"

    So when you enter GW2, you can find that some classes can spam through monsters. (Some others cannot.) If you are looking to be more optimal with your class or you are playing a more complex class, then you will find yourself doing many things at once. You will worry about support, damage, interrupts and control. You will also find that your PUG dungeon group avoids doing this at all costs. You may find that your pug group skips dungeon content whenever they can, especially if a group of mobs actually impose some sort of challenge. You will find your group teaching you how to exploit. You will find your group leader then saying how there's no challenge.

    Here is something that should be understood about GW2's combat: It is fast and active. There will be a fog of war when you encounter multiple enemies or a Champion boss fight with many others. It will take time to parse the battlefield and learn the language of the game's combat. Some of the encounters have bosses that are just damage sponges. These bosses are pretty mindless, but playing your class from moment to moment should still be active and require thought. Cleansing yourself or others, blocking projectiles in front of others, timing an interrupt, or what not. There are good encounters, but the playerbase seems allergic to them (Hello AC explorable changes!).

    So the combat is active and in that way challenging. It rewards you for multi-tasking and is quite far apart from the macrod life of a raider. It is different from TERA in that TERA seems very Monster Hunterish: slow attacks creating almost turn based combat, with high reward and high risk. GW2 is much faster and far more flexible. You may miss the moment where you screwed up or even the moment where you turned the battle. Stick with it and the game will eventually become easier to read.
    Last edited by zed zebes; 2013-07-07 at 03:13 AM.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Waervyn View Post
    Thanks for all the replies! I think I'll buy it
    Does anyone know of cheap places in Europe to buy? Amazon.co.uk seems to have a pretty low price (lower than greenmangaming in any case). Anyone know of others? I'm fine with the digital edition.

    Cheers!
    You can check US specific sites, as well; I don't know how well your currency compares with the US price. Copies in EU and the US can choose between the two regions during your world selection.

    Also my opinion; combat's fun. It depends on your class to an extent; some of them are more braindead (coughwarriors) than others, though with weapon and utility selection, you do have a great ability to complicate your own rotation. The PvE balance for 99% of content, though, is not exactly spectacular. sPvP and WvWvW are really the crux of the endgame, in my opinion; consider whether you have fun in other similar games. sPvP feels a lot like a mix between a MOBA and a traditional MMO, and WvWvW has the opportunity for some huge, fantastic battles.
    If you are particularly bold, you could use a Shiny Ditto. Do keep in mind though, this will infuriate your opponents due to Ditto's beauty. Please do not use Shiny Ditto. You have been warned.

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