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  1. #41
    Bloodsail Admiral Waervyn's Avatar
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    Thanks ZedZebes and LilSaihah for those 2 replies, very nice and thoughtful
    My recently created science blog about ants: AntyScience

  2. #42
    GW2 has far more challenging and interesting combat (and game play in general) that any other MMO I've found. I suspect the people that say it's mindless 1 spam aren't playing the same game I am. That's the only explanation I can find for their comments.

    Perhaps a brief example might help. When I play WoW, whether it be high or low level characters, if I'm in a level appropriate zone, I can literally start combat and put my hands in my lap without fear of dying. This is true even in the most "challenging" high level zones (barring the new rare spawns). There is no conceivable way you can do this in GW2. I dare you to stand in the Cursed Shore like that. You absolutely will die, and pretty quickly.

    Now, that said, can you strafe while only using auto attacks and survive? Sometimes. Can you dodge and use nothing but auto attacks and survive? Yes. However, it goes a lot quicker if you know how to use your skills. It's also essential to use skills and dodge properly when getting attacked by 3 mobs at once, for example.

    Someone mentioned running with the zerg and pressing 1. Yes, you can obviously do that, like in any mmo, but I personally don't judge the quality or complexity of game play based on running with a pack of people in open area pve.

    Dungeons are also more complex because of the lack of a trinity. I am not sure how you can argue that it makes no difference. In WoW, my DPS guy doesn't ever have to worry about getting hit. I just concern myself with not standing in goo and making sure I'm on my target. When tanking, my job is basically to keep stuff attacking me. Unless we're talking high end raiding, I don't really have to concern myself with survivability as that's my healer's job. In GW2, it's much more complicated because every character will need to not only pay attention to where they're standing, but also to surviving, staying on the target, taking advantage of other player's combo fields, and helping allies with boons as well as reviving as necessary.

    To sum up, is the actual act of doing damage complex or hard? No. Is the act of playing the actual game either solo or in a group complex or hard? It's certainly more complex than any other MMO I've come across. As to hard, some content is hard and some isn't - assuming you do all of the above listed jobs correctly; but it is never by any means just sitting there ignoring the environment and what's going on around you.

  3. #43
    Can you dodge and use nothing but auto attacks and survive? Yes. However, it goes a lot quicker if you know how to use your skills. It's also essential to use skills and dodge properly when getting attacked by 3 mobs at once, for example.
    Actually, that's the opposite of how it works for a lot of the "Zerker DPS" specs. Using "all your skills" ends up being a DPS loss quite often, and sometimes a very significant one.

    I do object to some of the posts trying to make GW2 combat out to be much more than it really is. There's a reason why, "Stack zerker on classes with high damage autoattacks, speedrun instances" is the current PvE meta, and it's because the current PvE content is just that simple. Speedrunning it becomes the only thing that people feel they can do to "do it better" because just finishing the instance is pretty much a trivial given.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by DSRilk View Post
    GW2 has far more challenging and interesting combat (and game play in general) that any other MMO I've found. I suspect the people that say it's mindless 1 spam aren't playing the same game I am. That's the only explanation I can find for their comments.

    Perhaps a brief example might help. When I play WoW, whether it be high or low level characters, if I'm in a level appropriate zone, I can literally start combat and put my hands in my lap without fear of dying. This is true even in the most "challenging" high level zones (barring the new rare spawns). There is no conceivable way you can do this in GW2. I dare you to stand in the Cursed Shore like that. You absolutely will die, and pretty quickly.

    Now, that said, can you strafe while only using auto attacks and survive? Sometimes. Can you dodge and use nothing but auto attacks and survive? Yes. However, it goes a lot quicker if you know how to use your skills. It's also essential to use skills and dodge properly when getting attacked by 3 mobs at once, for example.

    Someone mentioned running with the zerg and pressing 1. Yes, you can obviously do that, like in any mmo, but I personally don't judge the quality or complexity of game play based on running with a pack of people in open area pve.

    Dungeons are also more complex because of the lack of a trinity. I am not sure how you can argue that it makes no difference. In WoW, my DPS guy doesn't ever have to worry about getting hit. I just concern myself with not standing in goo and making sure I'm on my target. When tanking, my job is basically to keep stuff attacking me. Unless we're talking high end raiding, I don't really have to concern myself with survivability as that's my healer's job. In GW2, it's much more complicated because every character will need to not only pay attention to where they're standing, but also to surviving, staying on the target, taking advantage of other player's combo fields, and helping allies with boons as well as reviving as necessary.

    To sum up, is the actual act of doing damage complex or hard? No. Is the act of playing the actual game either solo or in a group complex or hard? It's certainly more complex than any other MMO I've come across. As to hard, some content is hard and some isn't - assuming you do all of the above listed jobs correctly; but it is never by any means just sitting there ignoring the environment and what's going on around you.
    "GW2 has far more challenging and interesting combat (and game play in general) that any other MMO I've found."

    I'm sorry but i can't take this sentence seriously. GW2 combat consists of strafing and kiting CONSTANTLY, the combat mechanics are so trivial at higher level that to create difficulty they had to bring in an artificial stat "agony".

  5. #45
    well honestly no mmo has challenging combat

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Actually, that's the opposite of how it works for a lot of the "Zerker DPS" specs. Using "all your skills" ends up being a DPS loss quite often, and sometimes a very significant one.

    I do object to some of the posts trying to make GW2 combat out to be much more than it really is. There's a reason why, "Stack zerker on classes with high damage autoattacks, speedrun instances" is the current PvE meta, and it's because the current PvE content is just that simple. Speedrunning it becomes the only thing that people feel they can do to "do it better" because just finishing the instance is pretty much a trivial given.
    But I feel the important thing is that stand-still DPS loss isn't most important to success. There are times where you may stop 1 spam to do something that increases group dps or group survival. This is an important trade-off that is worth taking most of the time.

    Maybe it's because I mostly player a Mesmer and Engineer, but I am always multi-tasking. If we don't have a guardian to pull mobs together, then I am using void carefully to do so. Other times, like SE exp, I don't pull with void but use its reflect to nullify back-line mobs while melee-ing the front like mobs. I may not be putting out the highest possible DPS on one mob, but I am putting out damage on multiple mobs, applying regen for my group via my phantasms, and reflecting ranged mobs so they don't damage my group. I cvcle through reflects on ranged mobs while snaring and damaging the focused target. I am essentially worrying about 3 different targets in 3 different locations all at once. It's much more active and rewarding than run-of-the-mill MMO combat.
    Last edited by zed zebes; 2013-07-08 at 10:02 PM.

  7. #47
    Brewmaster Kiry's Avatar
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    I think it greatly depends on what goal is. I happen to enjoy GW2 quite a bit. I feel like it's dynamic and I can't just afk through a rotation. Keep in mind, I am generally exploring and soloing content. I do not pvp. For me it's generally myself and maybe one or two others, so my survival is important to me.
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  8. #48
    I enjoy it a lot too, Kiry. And I do like GW2's combat quite a bit too (although I would like more weapon skill options, but I digress). However, I would not call it challenging. But then again, I'll reiterate what I said above, no mmorpg that I have ever played has had challenging combat.

  9. #49
    Often times, the mobs or encounters aren't punishing enough to call it challenging. That's why I prefer to call the combat "active". It's very active and when done properly, requires active thought. If you're soloing a Champ or mini-dungeon boss then it can get challenging, but otherwise it's mostly active/fun rather than punishing.

    Orr *was* punishing, but many of the populace complained and it got heavily toned down. Now, after a patch a few weeks ago, some of the popular DE trains there are more punishing and folks kind of ditched them because of that. =/

    It may be hard to actually give MMO players real challenge without them trying to nullify it in some way.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Kakeru View Post
    "GW2 has far more challenging and interesting combat (and game play in general) that any other MMO I've found."

    I'm sorry but i can't take this sentence seriously. GW2 combat consists of strafing and kiting CONSTANTLY, the combat mechanics are so trivial at higher level that to create difficulty they had to bring in an artificial stat "agony".
    Grouping of mobs, reflecting, dodging, breaking dps to revive, dropping and effectively using fields... all of these are intrinsic to combat. Strafing and kiting are perhaps core for melee and ranged respectively, but they are hardly the only things you do in combat. In many other MMOs it is far more about standing in place and letting your gear do the hard parts for you while you press numbers in a certain order. No movement, very little situational awareness, and a total lack of concern for what your group members are doing. That's other MMOs. That is not at all GW2. If you really think it's nothing more than spinning in a circle while auto attacking, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Actually, that's the opposite of how it works for a lot of the "Zerker DPS" specs. Using "all your skills" ends up being a DPS loss quite often, and sometimes a very significant one.

    I do object to some of the posts trying to make GW2 combat out to be much more than it really is. There's a reason why, "Stack zerker on classes with high damage autoattacks, speedrun instances" is the current PvE meta, and it's because the current PvE content is just that simple. Speedrunning it becomes the only thing that people feel they can do to "do it better" because just finishing the instance is pretty much a trivial given.
    Heavy hitting ranged damage incoming, so you break from auto attacking to drop a reflect wall or warden. Your group has multiple bleeds and burning so you make sure to drop a light field. You've taken severe damage and your heal skill is down, so you look around and ensure you use combo finishers in the water field your ranger buddy dropped. All of this is a DPS loss if taken entirely out of context. It's all a massive DPS gain when you take into account that downed characters do 0 DPS. Maybe we're playing entirely different games, but I've found that combats go much, much smoother and more successfully when our group is utilizing tactics, and that we wipe far more often when we ignore everyone and everything else and do nothing but stay fixed on "maximizing" short term DPS.

  11. #51
    I am Murloc! Thelxi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waervyn View Post
    Hey!

    I've been thinking of getting into GW2. At the moment I'm playing TSW and Tera casually.
    The combat of the game seems to be pretty fun. I looked up the Mesmer, and it seems like my cup of tea. The skill descriptions on the GW2 site are pretty nice, however I wonder...how hard is the content actually? Or maybe hard is the wrong word. When you're killing monsters...how braindead can you be?

    I'm basically looking for a game were even basic monsters can be a challenge (maybe a bit like in Dark Souls?). The portal video of the mesmer looks awesome, where the mesmer is confusing a monster by keeping teleporting to the other side of the battlefield and then blasting it. Do you really need these tactics, or does it, in the end, boil down to spamming the same skills over and over until the monster dies?

    Hope this rambling post makes a slight bit of sense! Thanks for your time
    It is a lot of fun and different than most games. However it is nothing earth shattering and eventually you will get used to it like in any other game. Combat and movement are not quite as smooth as WoW either, at least I really started missing the responsiveness and reliability of WoW.

    If you are interested in WvW prepare for extreme lag fests. Skill lag fests.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by zed zebes View Post
    Often times, the mobs or encounters aren't punishing enough to call it challenging. That's why I prefer to call the combat "active". It's very active and when done properly, requires active thought. If you're soloing a Champ or mini-dungeon boss then it can get challenging, but otherwise it's mostly active/fun rather than punishing.
    It's like with Mesmer/Thief for me, it's not like it's "harder", just more interactive than my greatsword warrior was. Now I use sword/sheild for the warrior and it's more fun, but still not really "interactive" for me.

    Orr *was* punishing, but many of the populace complained and it got heavily toned down. Now, after a patch a few weeks ago, some of the popular DE trains there are more punishing and folks kind of ditched them because of that. =/

    It may be hard to actually give MMO players real challenge without them trying to nullify it in some way.
    I didn't mind the Orr swarms and stuff, but it gets very tiresome to have nearly every waypoint contested all the time. That hasn't really changed much.

  13. #53
    Stood in the Fire Fernling306's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    well honestly no mmo has challenging combat
    I agree with this. GW2 is no exception.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Thelxi View Post
    Combat and movement are not quite as smooth as WoW either, at least I really started missing the responsiveness and reliability of WoW.
    I haven't noticed any difference between the two games in these areas.

    the biggest difference I've seen between them (other than the obvious mechanics) is the camera. WoW's camera is fantastic, GW2's not so much

  15. #55
    Stood in the Fire Fernling306's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    I haven't noticed any difference between the two games in these areas.

    the biggest difference I've seen between them (other than the obvious mechanics) is the camera. WoW's camera is fantastic, GW2's not so much
    WoW feels more responsive to me. I don't know what it is, but nobody can seem to match WoW when it comes to this. GW2 does a better job than most though.

  16. #56
    I am Murloc! Thelxi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    I haven't noticed any difference between the two games in these areas.

    the biggest difference I've seen between them (other than the obvious mechanics) is the camera. WoW's camera is fantastic, GW2's not so much
    There are so many differences and yes camera is one of them. If you want to start seeing some of them try running up a spiral staircase in WoW, and then try to run up a spiral staircase in GW2. Minister Wi's Mansion in Divinity's Reach is a great place for it. Try it

  17. #57
    I find the responsiveness and movement to be better than WoW. If you are very used to WoW's short animations and the fact the damage/outcome is calculated at button press, then things may feel "off" for you at first. It's not a lack of responsiveness (unless we're talking skill lag in huge wuvwuv fights). It's the difference of more naturalistic animations, longer animations, and that damage/outcome is determined more at point of contact.

    The d/d ele combo of Ride the Lightning -> Updraft -> Fire Attune -> Burning Speed -> Ring of Fire -> Arcane Blast is very quick due to the skills mostly having quick activation animations and good transition animations. Meanwhile, you can keyboard pound scepter 1 on a Mesmer and it will feel slow due to animation and hit rules.

    The camera does run into ceilings all the time though.

  18. #58
    Yeah, the camera is the only real difference I feel.

    Actually I find jumping in GW2 to be superior than in WoW (ironic due to GW1).

  19. #59
    Combat is very fluid once you learn your class / weapons / skills

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by zed zebes View Post
    I find the responsiveness and movement to be better than WoW. If you are very used to WoW's short animations and the fact the damage/outcome is calculated at button press, then things may feel "off" for you at first. It's not a lack of responsiveness (unless we're talking skill lag in huge wuvwuv fights).
    Man, I remember the early Wintergrasp courtyard battles. It was still fun though, so I guess I've always had a big tolerance for such things.

    It's the difference of more naturalistic animations, longer animations, and that damage/outcome is determined more at point of contact.

    The d/d ele combo of Ride the Lightning -> Updraft -> Fire Attune -> Burning Speed -> Ring of Fire -> Arcane Blast is very quick due to the skills mostly having quick activation animations and good transition animations. Meanwhile, you can keyboard pound scepter 1 on a Mesmer and it will feel slow due to animation and hit rules.
    I always prefered shortbow ranger over longbow because the machinegun speed, not really to do with damage.

    There's also a bit of a different between the "aiming" of the two games.

    The camera does run into ceilings all the time though.
    The camera's inability to decide at times where it wants to be, reminds me of some games from years gone by that just made the camera half the challenge. It's also odd to me that you can't zoom all the way in.

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