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  1. #1

    So 5.3 caused disc to be miles ahead again.

    Why is it okay for disc priest to have such an huge advantage regarding output compared to the other healers? Palas could somehow compete but they got tuned down alot in 5.3.

    But why are disc priests left untorched as a whole? Looking trough various logs from top guild it seems 2-3 disc priests will be mandatory for the next tier of progression. They produce insane numbers compared to anyone else.

    Is it really fine?

  2. #2
    Super Moderator Venara's Avatar
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    We were nerfed this patch to bring us more in line with other healers. I've raided just today and that seems to have worked out nicely (and was "needed". Disc was admittedly too strong). I was still ahead a little but it was much closer to the other healers than previously. That can be explained either with a class advantage, player skill or other factors such as bosses with +Damage modifiers (which still make disc the superior healer for these fights).

    In case you missed the changes:
    - Glyph of Smite no longer causes the additional 20% damage dealt by Smite to transfer into Atonement.
    - Atonement now heals nearby friendly targets for 90% of the damage dealt, down from 100%.
    - Borrowed Time now reduces the cast or channel time of the next Priest spell by 15% after casting Power Word: Shield (was 15% spell haste).
    - Penance now deals 10% less damage, but healing done is increased by 10%.
    Also, I'm pretty sure you should want to post in the Blizzard forums rather than here if you want to report balance issues. MMO-Champion can't help you. Nobody here is a Blizzard developer or has any influence on class or game design.
    Last edited by Venara; 2013-05-22 at 11:03 PM.

  3. #3
    Holy priest, shamans, and druids all got buffs to their AoE.

    Disc got nerfs to smite, atonement, Borrowed Time, and the DPS component of Penance. And still has piss poor sustained aoe compared to all other healers.

    As Venara said - we're more inline.

    Disc actually (imo) lacks behind the other healers in a "standard" situation - incoming sporadic damage, and no damage boosts.
    When there's a damage buff, or incoming damage is predictable / lines up with SS, then Disc starts rapidly getting stronger.

    All depends on the fight really.

  4. #4
    Nah, I kinda agree that the nerfs are utterly awful and achives basically nothing. They do very little to reduce our damage potential and ability to deal with low/medium sustained and bursts of damage effectively (where we excel), while they hurt our ability to deal with sustained heavy damage where we already are really weak (and which we see very little off in this tier, esp. in 10 man). Ideally any tweaks should also promote a playstyle that involves way less atonement, which these nerfs aren't enough to achive.

  5. #5
    In fact, I believe the achive the opposite, making disc priest gear more into atonenemt and dumbed down the spec more.

    Our emergency reponse to heavy damage was hurt wenn the didn't compensate IF for the crit change (making heals affectd by it double in numbers maybe even increased by crit like Spirit Shell, but unable to proc DA) and was now by the BT change again.
    Atonement is affected the least of all our healing options by that nerf.

    BT is still not consumed by instant heals (Like HF) but won't affect the duration of renew anymore and the most significant change is chaining PW:S, Penance, GH/PoH won't work anymore.
    The change in cast time for that one smite that was affected after a throwing a shield during an atonement sequence is more a nerf to PW:S than to anything else and mostly negligible anyway (negligible in the sense that it will change nothing about which spells are cast).

    Thus we have to conclude that the BT change was a nerf to targeted direct heals and therefore strengthened the position of atonement in the disc toolkit - exactly what was needed, don't you aggree?
    And it was a nerf, no 'bugfix', since Blizzard was well aware of the way it was working, even changing the amount of haste BT granted in the past instead of changing the way the buff was consumed 'since the thought it required thought and was thus looked upon favorable'.
    Last edited by Noradin; 2013-05-23 at 08:12 AM.

  6. #6
    The Patient Tenaru's Avatar
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    I didn't really notice much of a difference in healing numbers in yesterdays raid. Ran 4 first bosses in 25 heroic, and disc still seems to top all but Tortos, where Holy and monks slapped me around. That said, I don't think I've ever ranked on Tortos before, and without putting much effort into it was all the sudden 14th, granted it's not an amazing achievement per se, but the point more so being I was amazed we'd get new rankings overall. Have they've reset WoL rankings or something? Ranked 3/4 fights which makes no sense to me after a straight nerf and more then fucked up playing after excessive work

    We should've gotten a bigger nerf, and as some have mentioned before, the nerf should have targeted our dps utility more, not the healing itself.

    Edit: Atonement ended up accounting for anything between 12% (Council) -25%(Horridon) of my healing, including DA and the dot part, lowering the amount if i exclude Solace, which I probably should've for the sake of argument.
    Last edited by Tenaru; 2013-05-23 at 08:44 AM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrantWave View Post
    Holy priest, shamans, and druids all got buffs to their AoE.
    shamans didn't get any real AoE healing buffs. everything you saw in 5.3 up to this point was related to a bug with healing rain target cap and the T5 talents not meteoring.
    Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
    1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
    2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
    4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.

  8. #8
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    Reason people are ranking is most likely because of gear upgrades. Fights are getting shorter, people have more health, you have more output on non atonement, etc, etc.

  9. #9
    The Patient Tenaru's Avatar
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    Because I've been a lazy person I had valor to upgrade 1 item, I also don't have the LMG because GG blizz and their RNG droprate (Read: 1 secret each reset) not to even mention having the cloak. Thus I semi assumed the logs would've reset in some way.

    Maybe other people upgrading had a bigger effect than what I thought, as you said, with fights getting shorter and people having more health.

  10. #10
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venara View Post
    We were nerfed this patch to bring us more in line with other healers. I've raided just today and that seems to have worked out nicely (and was "needed". Disc was admittedly too strong). I was still ahead a little but it was much closer to the other healers than previously. That can be explained either with a class advantage, player skill or other factors such as bosses with +Damage modifiers (which still make disc the superior healer for these fights).

    In case you missed the changes:

    Also, I'm pretty sure you should want to post in the Blizzard forums rather than here if you want to report balance issues. MMO-Champion can't help you. Nobody here is a Blizzard developer or has any influence on class or game design.
    I think you are absolutely wrong. Miles ahead? No, not in healing. Miles ahead in utility however. And there was practically no change. Granted, there is no denying that 10% has been lost, but when you consider how much of that often went to overhealing the net result turns out to be miniscule at best. Further, the glyph of smite was never always fully utilized anyway, being interupted by penance, and increases in mastery since upgrades became available has yielded little difference

    In fact, the problem with Atonement still is the fact that you can contribute significant DPS while keeping an excellent healing rotation. It really is the difference in heroic progression when you can shave off large amounts of time just by having a disc priest present. This is moreso evident in 10s, but the fact remains that the tradeoff for being able to do 50-80k dps is absolutely trivial.

    And Venara, you of all people should know that we often congregate on these priests forums to discuss changes, vent frustrations, and argue one way or another. He's asking if the rest of us feel its fine that Blizzard's bandaid "fix" actually turned out to be utterly useless, which many of us on these forums had already predicted.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-23 at 02:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by TyrantWave View Post
    Holy priest, shamans, and druids all got buffs to their AoE.

    Disc got nerfs to smite, atonement, Borrowed Time, and the DPS component of Penance. And still has piss poor sustained aoe compared to all other healers.

    As Venara said - we're more inline.

    Disc actually (imo) lacks behind the other healers in a "standard" situation - incoming sporadic damage, and no damage boosts.
    When there's a damage buff, or incoming damage is predictable / lines up with SS, then Disc starts rapidly getting stronger.

    All depends on the fight really.
    Sorry, but I call bullshit on this one. First off, holy didn't get a buff, at least not in 10s. Divine Hymn is a 3 minute cooldown anyway, and its silly to put so much of the focus on an ability you might get off 3-4 times a fight. In 10s, holy still suffers from the exact same issues: spirit crutches and poor scaling. Haste now only really effects PoH cast time, since renew is garbage, and Mastery results in overhealing more often than not due to other classes being able to focus on haste (druids) and absorb mastery (disc, paladins). Oh yea, and other classes can still drop below 10k spirit and work out just fine.

    None of the nerfs amounted to anything. The borrowed time nerf is a joke--the gain from being able to get off a penance, solace, and PoM off during the buff really didnt make that much of a difference. The glyph of smite nerf is also silly since you werent often maximizing potential there if you were maintaining penance, PoM, and rapture properly. Atonement's 10% loss is true, but since alot of it went to overhealing the difference noticed is extremely small. Mastery still pushes you back to 100% and beyond, anyway.

    As far as this:

    Disc actually (imo) lacks behind the other healers in a "standard" situation - incoming sporadic damage, and no damage boosts.
    When there's a damage buff, or incoming damage is predictable / lines up with SS, then Disc starts rapidly getting stronger.
    Incoming sporadic damage? That's Atonement's niche, what are you talking about? Noone ever needed a damage boost to beneift from a fast, cheap, and smart heals. There is only one fight you can say disc truly falters in, and even then it's still awfully good, and thats Tortos.
    Last edited by ramennoodleking; 2013-05-23 at 02:34 PM.

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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Kreeb View Post
    Why is it okay for disc priest to have such an huge advantage regarding output compared to the other healers? Palas could somehow compete but they got tuned down alot in 5.3.

    But why are disc priests left untorched as a whole? Looking trough various logs from top guild it seems 2-3 disc priests will be mandatory for the next tier of progression. They produce insane numbers compared to anyone else.

    Is it really fine?
    This has to be a Troll. Disc was nerfed in multiple ways this patch. i noticed it right away in both DPS and HPS. Loved my DPSers new upgrades as they shaved a minute or more off our kills this week.
    And can we please stop saying "Top guilds use 2 ofthis or 3 of that." What other guilds do has very little if no impact to what YOUR guild does, or at least it shouldn't. When it comes to healing more then any other aspects of raiding, it is the person behind the mouse that matters. I have seen every combo of healers you can think of work just fine. Just because some high end guild does something, it does not mean everyone has to do it or the boss won't die. So please stop this ignorant and just plain wrong logic.

  12. #12
    disc are great at topping the meters in situations where no one was going to die

    when serious stuff is going on the other healers are much closer to even if you're watching meters

    but we all know meters don't really tell the whole story anyways

  13. #13
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fraeblood View Post
    This has to be a Troll. Disc was nerfed in multiple ways this patch. i noticed it right away in both DPS and HPS. Loved my DPSers new upgrades as they shaved a minute or more off our kills this week.
    And can we please stop saying "Top guilds use 2 ofthis or 3 of that." What other guilds do has very little if no impact to what YOUR guild does, or at least it shouldn't. When it comes to healing more then any other aspects of raiding, it is the person behind the mouse that matters. I have seen every combo of healers you can think of work just fine. Just because some high end guild does something, it does not mean everyone has to do it or the boss won't die. So please stop this ignorant and just plain wrong logic.
    You would have barely noticed a dps loss since the only thing really nerfed dps-wise was offensive penance. And even then your gear upgrades should have clouded that fact.

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  14. #14
    Super Moderator Venara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    I think you are absolutely wrong. Miles ahead? No, not in healing. Miles ahead in utility however. And there was practically no change.
    Your post feels a wee bit confrontational. Absolutely wrong? I believe some of the things I said are true. The changes were made to bring us more in line and the changes listed are correct. What your feelings about my personal assessment are is another topic. Miles ahead? I never even said that. You are quoting an entirely different post.

    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    Granted, there is no denying that 10% has been lost, but when you consider how much of that often went to overhealing the net result turns out to be miniscule at best. Further, the glyph of smite was never always fully utilized anyway, being interupted by penance, and increases in mastery since upgrades became available has yielded little difference
    In fact, the problem with Atonement still is the fact that you can contribute significant DPS while keeping an excellent healing rotation. It really is the difference in heroic progression when you can shave off large amounts of time just by having a disc priest present. This is moreso evident in 10s, but the fact remains that the tradeoff for being able to do 50-80k dps is absolutely trivial.
    I actually fully agree with you here. That doesn't change that my personal experience in my raid was somewhat different. I never claimed that experience reflects the state of the entire disc priest community. It might be that the other healers in my raid performed much better than previously and that the gap was smaller because of that. I did not analyze our logs to that extent and I did not claim that I did. See why I said that you post feels a little confrontational?
    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    And Venara, you of all people should know that we often congregate on these priests forums to discuss changes, vent frustrations, and argue one way or another. He's asking if the rest of us feel its fine that Blizzard's bandaid "fix" actually turned out to be utterly useless, which many of us on these forums had already predicted.
    Again, I agree. Even so, try and read the OP without the very last sentence. Without it, it becomes nothing but feedback by someone who seems to be upset to some degree and does not seem to have read the patch notes ("why are disc priests left untorched as a whole").

    I'm not judging or questioning the quality or validity of the feedback. I am merely pointing out that such feedback should be directed to those who can make changes to the game. And it's not like this hasn't happened before or that it's happening regularly. If you've been around the priest forum a while, which I know you have, you should know that sometimes, though rarely, we do close posts that are essentially just class feedback or rants and direct to the appropriate channels. Plus, we have a sticky for the "State of Priest". I don't think the hint was unreasonable in this case but I see your point nonetheless.
    Last edited by Venara; 2013-05-23 at 04:46 PM. Reason: Typos, correct quote placement

  15. #15
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    My apologies, the "miles ahead" comment was referring to the OP and was an after-post edit to clarify that I didn't agree with the OP either. I also apologize for saying you were absolutely wrong; it was a knee-jerk reaction to how I feel blizzard addresses only the smallest of issues with a healing that spec that is over-valued. Your personal circumstances may have felt different to you, this is true. I just don't feel like the intended effects of these nerfs impacted Disc in any meaningful way. Things feel very much the same between last weeks council progression and this weeks council progression for me.

    My main beef with your comment was referring primarily to 10 man content (no idea what you raid) and how Disc hasn't changed in regards to its value to the raid. 50k+ dps while still remaining beyond competitive just throws disc into another echelon of healing. Disc will never be in line as long as it can provide significant dps and still stay within healing expectations of a regular healer. It's just ridiculous how blizzard doesn't see this as a problem.
    Last edited by ramennoodleking; 2013-05-23 at 05:28 PM. Reason: Types and the like

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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    The change in cast time for that one smite that was affected after a throwing a shield during an atonement sequence is more a nerf to PW:S than to anything else and mostly negligible anyway (negligible in the sense that it will change nothing about which spells are cast).
    Smite is not consuming borrowed time unless I magically am the only one having it work that way. For clarity sake I mean that it is not getting a cast time reduction.

  17. #17
    Yes I noticed that, too.
    That only further strengthens the point I made, though.
    You were not trying to get BT for Smite before and you won't now.

    The cast time reduction to smite was tiny anyway and its loss won't have any effect on playstyle other than PW:S got a tiny bit worse in combination with atonement spells, the loss of the reduction for GH or PoH, or Penance, when combining PW:S and Penance with either GH or PoH is much bigger, as is the loss of GCD reduction to instant casts.
    Thus they basically nerfed targeted heals (much more) which made the atonement smart heals relatively stronger.

  18. #18
    Blizz balances the game around the hardest form of content. Everyone is competitive in heroic raiding from what I have seen firsthand because there is always somthing to heal. In normals, there is just not as much to heal and therefore, absorbs provided by disc priests(and paladins) are going to make them look better than pure hps classes like monks, priests, and druids.

  19. #19
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DailyBB View Post
    Blizz balances the game around the hardest form of content. Everyone is competitive in heroic raiding from what I have seen firsthand because there is always somthing to heal. In normals, there is just not as much to heal and therefore, absorbs provided by disc priests(and paladins) are going to make them look better than pure hps classes like monks, priests, and druids.
    Again, you like many others miss the real problem. In 10 man heroic progression, which is the hardest content for that group size, dps requirements are tight and every little bit eases the encounter. Disc brings very decent dps and is still able to heal to and beyond the extent necessary. It has nothing to do with looking good on meters and everything to do with the insane amounts of value a disc priest brings.

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  20. #20
    The changes to disc was a very very tiny nerf. However holy HPS has gone up yet again. Holy is now a no brainer, on tortos hc, council hc, maegera hc, iron qon, twin consorts, on 25man, the HPS difference is just too big. For the first time I am actually keeping up with our monk and druid on hc tortos (who are both ranking really high on most fights) even though I don't have the t15 4set yet.

    It is all simply because of the Divine Hymn buff. The 10% boost to healing now persists on the whole raid for 6-8s after Hymn ends and I can chain it with int pots + all my burst (DI-PoM, Star/cascade/Halo, full serendipity PoH/CoH). So DH not only does tons more healing now, it also buffs your high burst by 10%, if you set it up intelligently.


    The only 25man encounters where I feel disc is more beneficial overall is horridon hc, lei shen (normal) and Ji'kun hc. That is it. 25man Hc Tortos, council, maegera, iron qon, twin consorts holy is just outright better, because you really really need HPS during the scary moments in the fight and disc just does not have it.

    In the current tier absorbs are nothing but a heal snipping tool on most encounters. On horridon hc, council hc, primordious hc and lei shen, they definitely have value because you can use them to reduce the chance of one shots, especially on the tank during the last phase if you are killing him after the enrage timer goes off like we did before 5.3. Spirit shell on the tanks with 2x disc priests, is the equivalent of having 6 extra healer cooldowns for tripple punctures on the tanks and on top you have 2x barriers for the time when Jalak and horridon are up together. Aside from horridon hc however the absorb utility is minor at best and in many encounters the massively higher HPS that holy can push out during spikes is much better at least in 25man. After the patch the difference is just too great.

    I am going to try holy on all encounters except Ji'kun and Horridon this tier to see how it looks.

    The only annoying thing is that the disc playstyle has changed yet again. Penance now absorbs borrowed time and instants don't use it, so now I don't worry about chaining instants into borrowed time and I just refresh borrowed time whenever it is consumed. The haste buff is now 17.4%, but since you lost the ability to chain instants and penance into it, it ends being a small but noticeable throughput nerf.

    The situation on 10man was in favour of disc, but with the patch raid DPS went up, so disc DPS is probably not as important anymore. Also holy was not buffed at all in 10mans.

    So it looks like the situation has changed dramatically between the raid tiers. 25man Holy > disc, 10man Disc > Holy it seems.
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2013-05-24 at 10:44 AM.

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