Former WoW team lead Mark Kern - MMO's have become too easy

[Fastlane_hellscream]

He's saying low level should be just as special and important as max level.

No MMO that I have played (and there have been many) has ever actually designed the game to that philosophy. If the journey were important, you would see more and more lvl 10, 20, 30, etc dungeons and raids as a game grows. Personally, I wouldn't have fun playing that way, but i'm sure some people would. I would like to see an mmo get rid of lvling completely. Start at lvl 1, and begin getting your end game gear on a slower curve. Problem is, there is no telling who else would enjoy this because all mmos follow suit with WoW's design, since they know it sells well basically.

[kensim]

Just because a lot of people frequent something doesn't mean it's all that great...

look at walmart and mcdonalds.

You wouldn't really call them the best department store and restaurant would you?

WoW's got the most subs... hell it brought in the most players to the genre (which was near non-existent relative to today's standard). But to keep using sub count as a justification as to why it's the best game around has seemed silly to me since back before Cata dropped.

Best no....most convenient, flexible, easily accessible, efficient, one stop shop, etc.....yes.

Many times over going to Wal-Mart or McDonalds is just better because they do a whole lot of things well, and cater to the masses. Both are and forever will be more profitable, trafficked, and known than most other "specialty" or limited competitors.

Sound familiar?

[MoanaLisa]

Well, Firefall will go live one of these days and then we'll see if he's right or not.

I tend to agree with Zaqwert that a lot of what Kern was really talking about was velocity rather than difficulty. His vision of a game that's more difficult and takes longer is certainly valid in a game where you don't keep very few if any alts. I remember back in the day dying a lot to low-level mobs and can't say that I was really any more struck by the scenery during my runbacks than I am now. I certainly agree with him about the importance of the journey and think that it's a fine thing that content will scale with the players. WoW should have that too and I suppose it will someday.

The perspective of a new game about to launch where everyone will be on the journey at first sounds right. If Firefall stays around for a few years we'll see how it handles that idea once a really large percentage of its players are at highest level. I can see the attraction of a game where everything stays around your level. I can also see how I wouldn't really want to play much in an Elwynn Forest where the bears hit like trucks and it's a struggle to get anything done.

It's fine to write long articles describing your ideal game design. Where ideals meet commerce, strange things can happen.

Different strokes.

EDIT: I might add that most of the WoW Dev team, GC in particular, made much the same argument at the start of Cataclysm: that difficult dungeons were more engaging and better for everyone. Of course, he got pilloried from post to post on that even by people who should have known better. And there's no secret what all of that did to the commercial part of the game. Anyway, best of luck to Mark. Looking forward to seeing how it goes with Firefall.

[Aeula]

I'm just glad he's the FORMER team leader.

[GrieverXIII]

Well, Firefall will go live one of these days and then we'll see if he's right or not.

I tend to agree with Zaqwert that a lot of what Kern was really talking about was velocity rather than difficulty. His vision of a game that's more difficult and takes longer is certainly valid in a game where you don't keep very few if any alts. I certainly agree with him about the journey and think that it's a fine thing that content will scale with the players. WoW should have that too and I suppose it will someday.

The perspective of a new game about to launch where everyone will be on the journey at first sounds right. If Firefall stays around for a few years we'll see how it handles that idea once a really large percentage of its players are at highest level. I can see the attraction of a game where everything stays around your level. I can also see how I wouldn't really want to play much in an Elwynn Forest where the bears hit like trucks and it's a struggle to get anything done.

It's fine to write long articles describing your ideal game design. Where ideals meet commerce, strange things can happen.

Different strokes.

Since when alts were even a requirement, i wouldn't have any if end game efforts provided enough incitive to become the best at something.

Besides, today's definition of alts is 5 different mains, thanks to Cataclysm.

Either way, i agree with him and i will most likely give Firefall a shot but what guarantee we have they won't sell the soul of their game for the mighty dollar like WoW did? Sigh.

[GrieverXIII]

I'm just glad he's the FORMER team leader.

Yeah, look how well the game has been doing since he's gone and the welfare philosophy has went full speed.

[MoanaLisa]

Since when alts were even a requirement

They're not a requirement; they're a reality though and in a game with multiple classes and styles of play--tank, damage, healing, ranged, melee--not to mention two factions, people will want to have them. You think that should just be ignored?

[KrazyK923]

Immediate problem I noticed with his article:

He equates ease with removing pointless time constraints or things that just waste time.

False premise, I dont care if he worked on WoW. Its a false comparison and he should feel bad for saying what he did. Because now he's giving the blanket-haters another person to hold up as "SEE, THE OLD DAYS OF WASTING HOURS A WEEK GRINDING RESISTANCE GEAR MADE THE GAME FUN!"

[GrieverXIII]

They're not a requirement; they're a reality though and in a game with multiple classes and styles of play--tank, damage, healing, ranged, melee--people will want to have them.

So? If you want something, you should have to put the efforts in it.

[Mithfir]

I mostly agree with the author. I don't mind linear quests as they can be used to tell a story (the quality is another debate). Spread out quests all over the world make it more difficult to create a coherent story, unless it's a long chain, like the old Onyxia chain quest.

I remember when I started playing in Vanilla. I was excited that I could actually solo to lv.60, but I also knew it would take me time to get there. There's something the author barely mentioned: catch-up mechanisms. Blizzard's modus operandi is now: "Quick,we must allow new players to reach current content and they must get to see everything ASAP!". This killed the journey the author wrote about. It's all a race to consume content as fast as possible. I don't find that fun.

[KrazyK923]

but that is the problem the article was pointing to; because it doesnt matter how hard or how good the endgame is, if you have to wade through 90 levels of simplistic shite to get there. there is SO much focus on endgame in WoW now, that the whole process of levelling suffers as a result.

which is why the subs are suffering as a result. people are still leaving, as they always did, but there is nothing about the game today that will drag new players in. can you imagine playing the first 20 levels for free, then thinking "sure, let me pay over $60 for all the boxes, then set up a sub for $15 a month. this gameplay is worth every cent". i dont think so.

...they spent the majority of their assets of an entire expansion on this very thing you're complaining about.

And I don't think its controversial to say that most people now consider Cataclysm the worst expansion thusfar.

Revamped 1-60 is FAR superior in every single way to Vanilla.

This argument also fails.

[Kraenen]

Doesn't anyone else find it ironic that by making it easier to level up, that by giving you more time to explore, that somehow you feel more rushed and will 'take it in' less?

[Hb]

Ouch. Wonder what the "bad" players gotta say about that when they cant face the truth of that WoW have become way too easy.

Like seriously a previous raid content boss have just been soloed in the same goddamn expansion. Open your damn eyes.

I hope Blizzard learned their mistake with WoW by making the game so casual friendly aka too easy of a game.

I hope Titan is going to rock.

[mickybrighteyes]

They're not a requirement; they're a reality though and in a game with multiple classes and styles of play--tank, damage, healing, ranged, melee--not to mention two factions, people will want to have them. You think that should just be ignored?

They're a reality now. Sadly it got to a point where alts seemed to be part of the endgame attraction due to basically capping (or close enough) one or more other characters.

[Wildmoon]

The last part of his article ruins this lol.

[BenBos]

which is why the subs are suffering as a result. people are still leaving, as they always did, but there is nothing about the game today that will drag new players in. can you imagine playing the first 20 levels for free, then thinking "sure, let me pay over $60 for all the boxes, then set up a sub for $15 a month. this gameplay is worth every cent". i dont think so.

Repeated this for 10.000 times already.

Subs losses having NOTHING to do with in game issues.

The subscription market is no longer the standard and MMo's are replaced with faster on line games.

The general market changed and MMO's turned free to play, no wonder WOW lost some 25% subscription when the others went for 0 % subscriptions.


In your hate against Blizzard you didn't even notice the subscription market changed.

People these days LIKE to play GARBAGE, as long as it is "free to play".

NEW people will NEVER pay a subscription if all that free to play garbage is STILL out there


I can wait ... because the money will run out of these former AAA's sooner than many expect.

Blizzard got the message: they wait with their next MMORPG until the shake out of these free to play thingies is finished.

[KrazyK923]

Yeah, look how well the game has been doing since he's gone and the welfare philosophy has went full speed.

Nice buzzword. I also hope you realize that the pejorative of "welfare" was first thrown at WoW during BC. You know, the expansion that people who quit the game love to wet themselves over like it was the best thing ever.

---------- Post added 2013-06-30 at 10:48 PM ----------

Ouch. Wonder what the "bad" players gotta say about that when they cant face the truth of that WoW have become way too easy.

Like seriously a previous raid content boss have just been soloed in the same goddamn expansion. Open your damn eyes.

Heroic modes? High-end PvP?

Guess those aren't counted because people can do LFR and random bgs?

Yeah, that's totally a reasonable argument you're making.

Also LOL @ acting like a very specialized tactic used by one class (Which is the only one designed in this way to do what he has done. Warlocks can also do so to a lesser degree, but nowhere close) killing a raid boss means the game is super easy now. Get back to me when everybody can do that shit or you're just blowing smoke.

[Aeula]

Yeah, look how well the game has been doing since he's gone and the welfare philosophy has went full speed.

How well the game is doing is irrelivent to me, i like it easy.

[GrieverXIII]

Nice buzzword. I also hope you realize that the pejorative of "welfare" was first thrown at WoW during BC. You know, the expansion that people who quit the game love to wet themselves over like it was the best thing ever.

Yeah, it was used to describe honor pvp epics and justice points/insignia/whatever gear. Wich was accurate.

[clickerflipper]

WoW devs have slowly been bending the knee to what gamers think they needed and wanted.

I have seen people make fun of Blizzard and other companies for "telling me what I need and how to play"

Guess what?

That's what game developers are supposed to do. That is their job. Players need something to strive for, even if it is unreachable (aka BC and Wrath). Let developers develop! However, this is a lost cause in WoW because everything is so heavily diluted now.