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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by zenga View Post
    Honestly the enhancement representation is not really a good indicator to determine it's viability. Yes it will be to a certain extend. Historically enhance is a spec that is not played by the masses.
    Historically? Dks and Monks are new classes and much more heavily represented. Why would people play one spec less than any other? Simple, because they assess it as weaker. Feral and Ret are hybrids, just like us, but more heavily represented. There's no justification other than enh not being popular, and the reason behind that is inferior pvp arsenal.
    Worst stun, worst gap closing, easy to cc and kite, easy to drain, weak totems and predictable dmg output

    Not to mention that ele is really good now that this might influence the enh representation.
    Resto and ele are well represented, so shamans aparently aren't unpopular as a class. Enlighten me though how even ele, which was so weak in cata, happens to be so popular again, while enh, which was better off in cata and (according to you) is in a good state now, is low in represantion since forever, even in wotlk?
    Enhancement has awesome flavor. You shoot lightning, shock your enemies with fire and frost, slash them with lava, summon spirit wolves and healing rains, conjure healing water and what not. It brings the whole shaman flavor that pulls people in. There's no reason it wouldn't be popular if it were as good as you said. Hell, ele shares much of it's flavor with enh and is well represented in 5s and, to a lesser degree, in 3s.

    Point being, even if enhance would have god status, it would still not be the most represented spec.
    So when rets were so overpowered from 3.0 onwards, we weren't swarmed by new paladins suddenly? Yeah, totally didn't happen.
    WW are brand new and shiny, but are hardly better represented, and just so happen (at least from what I've gathered) to also not have an instant gap closer nor a freedom-sprint. Surely they aren't as represented as other melees because, historically ww isn't played by the masses.
    Look at pve, enhance was/is one of the top dps specs, yet far away being the most played spec.
    Because dps is not everything. Ascendence is worth shit when cced. Enh is easy to toy with. Pve is 90% single target numbers, 5% aoe numbers and 5% is that utility stuff and selfhealing that makes classes stand out in pvp.

    Hex: okay in pve, inferior in pvp (target retains control, lower duration makes the longer cd/cast time hurt, wether compared to instant casts with cd, or no cd casted ccs)
    Cpt: okay in pve, inferior in pvp (gets stomped, player gets silenced, enemies move away)
    Totems in general: (mostly) okay in pve, inferior in pvp
    Elementals: okay if tp in pve, inferior in pvp/if not tp (outranged or destroyed totem)

    Notice a pattern? Shaman stuff is designed with flaws for pvp. Would they make those for pve as well, they would get in the way of raiding, and that would piss off everyone in the raid. Like this, only shamans rage and people simply arena/rbg with others.
    Ele is popular because of ridiculous pvp dps now (your words). It's the same as in wotlk. Shaman pvp utility has always been sub par.
    Last edited by Omanley; 2013-07-04 at 04:15 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  2. #42
    Dreadlord zenga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Historically? Dks and Monks are new classes and much more heavily represented. Why would people play one spec less than any other? Simple, because they assess it as weaker. Feral and Ret are hybrids, just like us, but more heavily represented. There's no justification other than enh not being popular, and the reason behind that is inferior pvp arsenal.
    Worst stun, worst gap closing, easy to cc and kite, easy to drain, weak totems and predictable dmg output

    Resto and ele are well represented, so shamans aparently aren't unpopular as a class. Enlighten me though how even ele, which was so weak in cata, happens to be so popular again, while enh, which was better off in cata and (according to you) is in a good state now, is low in represantion since forever, even in wotlk?
    Enhancement has awesome flavor. You shoot lightning, shock your enemies with fire and frost, slash them with lava, summon spirit wolves and healing rains, conjure healing water and what not. It brings the whole shaman flavor that pulls people in. There's no reason it wouldn't be popular if it were as good as you said. Hell, ele shares much of it's flavor with enh and is well represented in 5s and, to a lesser degree, in 3s.
    It's way to simple to put it like that, let alone to use it as an argument. You know that and I know that. Your monk example is a really good example...

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    So when rets were so overpowered from 3.0 onwards, we weren't swarmed by new paladins suddenly? Yeah, totally didn't happen.
    WW are brand new and shiny, but are hardly better represented, and just so happen (at least from what I've gathered) to also not have an instant gap closer nor a freedom-sprint. Surely they aren't as represented as other melees because, historically ww isn't played by the masses.
    It's a really good question why WW monks are not represented, and it kills pretty much your whole theory. WW do have means to get to a target, among the best ways/if not the best way in the game. The have double roll/chi torpedo (if roll is not an instant gap closer than what the fuck is it?) on a 20s cd, which is affected by the first tier (speed boost, triple roll or 30s cd freedom+massive speed boost). Roll is the equivalent of charge+intervene, can be used both offensive and defensive. And next to this they have flying serpent kick on a 25s cd, which is nothing less than a ninja move. And they have a teleport. Anyone, even the worst player in the world, can have super uptime as a monk. And it's almost impossible to really kite them due to their gap closers.

    Really saying that WW monks are low represented because they lack mobility/don't have an instant gapcloser is plain nonsense. They have all the utility/control in the world, and they can do sick damage. Yet there are hardly any good monks around. So why is it? Is the spec less attractive, did people grow tired of rerolling/levelling? Maybe the spec is perceived as harder to play (which I always hear from people, that enhance takes a special mindset/attitude to play well unlike for example a ret or warrior or dk where you just smash your opponent in the face all the time). Even blizzard doesn't really know it (not saying btw that monk is a rank 1 viable spec, but it's definitely good enough to get a pretty high representation in the bracket you used).
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Shaman stuff is designed with flaws for pvp. ...Shaman pvp utility has always been sub par.
    That is just plain nonsense.

  3. #43
    Talents I would change:

    Astral Shift: Such a meh ability. Replace with old WotLK version of Astral Shift.
    Windwalk Totem: Baseline it. Replace with Repulsion Totem
    Totemic Projection: Make it a baseline passive for all totems. Replace with a combination of Totemic Focus and Totemic Reach from Cataclysm.
    Echo of Elements: Does anyone actually take this? Replace with a third CD like Tidal Force from WotLK.
    Conductivity: Make it do instant Healing Rains with a 3 second increased duration.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by zenga View Post
    It's way to simple to put it like that, let alone to use it as an argument. You know that and I know that. Your monk example is a really good example...
    It's just that simple. People play what is strong. Mop's out, bm's strong, suddenly the pvp rankings are clogged with them, same with warriors. Rets strong beginning wotlk? Tons of them. It's always like that. Enhance was never truly strong since vanilla, where shamans were not only horde only, many have quit since then and expierenced shamans as the constant victim and first target in pvp. Resto managed to hold their ground because, well, it's a healer spec. Ele managed to secure a spot out of sheer burst in wotlk, and now in mop, but they're not famous for their utility.

    -Grounding is an inferior spellreflect
    -Hex is either an inferior silence, fear or polymorph effect (it shares almost all downsides of them, with hardly advantages)
    -CPT is the worst stun ever
    -totems are now unusable while silenced, just like other spells, but still destroyable, immobile and hindered by shared element schools
    -Shocks still share cooldown albeit containing integral parts of both of elemental's bursts AND shaman's most integral snare
    -EBT is an inferior ice trap, mushroom, ring of frost, or consecrate. where others are unattackable and even invisible, ebt is removable by everyone
    -GW is an inferior travel form. dispellable, making vulnerable against beast ccs of hunters and druids, while not offering poly immunity, not removing snares/roots, required a talent to be instant all the way up to mop, now requiring a glyph for the one thing that made it first worthwhile (took them only till middle wotlk for that).
    -Pets tied to totems (they didn't learn their lesson and applied that stupid design to stuns and absorbs also, never getting tiered of it...)
    -SBT, requiring 30 second zptime for full benefit, all the while blocking the earth slot, not stacking that absorb, giving only measly over time protection and all of that on a 5hp stick? f***ing brilliant!
    That is just plain nonsense.
    My thoughts exactly, my thoughts exactly. Honestly, It's plain to see why that crap is nonsense, but nothing changes.

    It's a really good question why WW monks are not represented, and it kills pretty much your whole theory.
    It does? Rather, doesn't it perfectly show that "historical" stuff is a sad excuse for why enh is underrepresented? As I said, I've not bothered looking into monks as they came after my playing time, and the thought of their roll (which, looking at it in wow-head, wasn't revealing all to much), which appeared to work different from other insta gap closers being part of the reason would've fit in with part of my reasoning why it may be underrepresented. But I never claimed our lack of gap closing being our ONLY reason for being weaker (the above list showing why).
    So no, it does not kill my whole theory. Which it isn't in any case, my above list is perfectly accurate and true, those are facts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  5. #45
    Dreadlord zenga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    -Grounding is an inferior spellreflect
    -Hex is either an inferior silence, fear or polymorph effect (it shares almost all downsides of them, with hardly advantages)
    -CPT is the worst stun ever
    -totems are now unusable while silenced, just like other spells, but still destroyable, immobile and hindered by shared element schools
    -Shocks still share cooldown albeit containing integral parts of both of elemental's bursts AND shaman's most integral snare
    -EBT is an inferior ice trap, mushroom, ring of frost, or consecrate. where others are unattackable and even invisible, ebt is removable by everyone
    -GW is an inferior travel form. dispellable, making vulnerable against beast ccs of hunters and druids, while not offering poly immunity, not removing snares/roots, required a talent to be instant all the way up to mop, now requiring a glyph for the one thing that made it first worthwhile (took them only till middle wotlk for that).
    -Pets tied to totems (they didn't learn their lesson and applied that stupid design to stuns and absorbs also, never getting tiered of it...)
    -SBT, requiring 30 second zptime for full benefit, all the while blocking the earth slot, not stacking that absorb, giving only measly over time protection and all of that on a 5hp stick? f***ing brilliant!
    - Grounding isn't meant to be a spellreflect, it just offers the option to do so through a glyph.
    - Not every team can decurse, and it doesn't break as fast as a poly. Every team can dispel polymorph. I can often flame shock / unleash / and still get a lava burst off before the hex breaks.
    - not a fan of CPT either, still I can be very effective when you land one vs a bunch of pets for example
    - shocks are on a shared cd, yeah, so? it's just how the spell works: it's 1 spell and you have the choice to cast an effect. It's not hurting ele at all in pvp. Not even a single bit.
    - earthbind totem is an aoe snare that is up 66% of the time, it works simply different than ring of frost or ice trap, its a totally different ability
    - totems are part of ele shamans, always been. Fire elemental and earth elemental are damn nice abilities, even more when you talent them. dont see whats wrong with those
    - sbt isnt the strongest, true, it will get buffed next patch. but its not like its not useful at all in pve, just like astral shift is

    You don't mention Wind Shear, Grounding, Purge and Tremor totem in your utility list.
    Wind Shear is one of the few ranged interrupts in the game.
    Grounding is one of the most powerful abilities that counters a ton of abilities that don't have many counters, on a very short cd (death grip, hunter trap, HoJ, cyclone, fear, poly, etc ...).
    Tremor totem is the best anti fear in the game.
    Purge is an incredible offensive dispel without a cd and a low mana cost.
    Healing/off healing.

    Saying that the utility of shamans is sub par to others is just stupid. Shaman utility is among the best you can get. Sure there other classes/specs who bring an improved version of what shamans can do. But honestly tell me which of the following classes can bring more utility:

    bm/sv/mm hunter
    affli/destro/demon lock
    spriest
    arcane/frost/fire mage
    ret pally
    unholy/frost dk
    sub/combat/assa rogues
    ww monk
    feral/boomkin druids
    arms/fury warrior

    Really tell me which spec has more utility in total than a dps shaman.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhamses View Post
    Talents I would change:

    Astral Shift: Such a meh ability. Replace with old WotLK version of Astral Shift.
    Windwalk Totem: Baseline it. Replace with Repulsion Totem
    Totemic Projection: Make it a baseline passive for all totems. Replace with a combination of Totemic Focus and Totemic Reach from Cataclysm.
    Echo of Elements: Does anyone actually take this? Replace with a third CD like Tidal Force from WotLK.
    Conductivity: Make it do instant Healing Rains with a 3 second increased duration.
    Echo of the Elements is taken by lots of people. If you don't have a burst phase, it's the go to for Elemental.

  7. #47
    Grounding isn't meant to be a spellreflect, it just offers the option to do so through a glyph.
    It had the same cd as spellreflect and when spellreflect had its cd increased, gt had its cd increased as well, by the same amount, in the very same patch. at least blizz seems to see grounding as a spellreflect. it even comes with a glyph to bring that feature, at the small price of freaking more than doubling its cooldown.
    - Not every team can decurse, and it doesn't break as fast as a poly. Every team can dispel polymorph. I can often flame shock / unleash / and still get a lava burst off before the hex breaks.
    All druids can decurse AND are immune to it, while only resto druids can remove poly. With the most popular dps spec being frost mage, and resto shamans and druids being up there as well in popularity, decurse is frequent enough to greatly diminish this small advantage. It breaks faster than fear, which has no cooldown and takes aways control from the target. It doesn't instantly break from dmg like poly, but is counterable by all druid combos wether guardian, feral, balance or resto. It has a cooldown as well and does not take control of the target.
    Also there's all dps teams, with a high chance on a mage, making your "every team can remove poly" point false.
    - shocks are on a shared cd, yeah, so? it's just how the spell works: it's 1 spell and you have the choice to cast an effect. It's not hurting ele at all in pvp. Not even a single bit.
    Sooo, you need to kite someone with frostshock, all the while sitting on max ls charges for fulmination and need to refresh flame shock because of a dispell, and you tell me that requiring 12 seconds+ to do all that is not dumb? FS the requirement for lvb empowering AND instant lvbs, the bread and butter for ele in pvp I'd wager and ES the other big burst requirement for fulm. But you said ele has overpowered burst atm, so I guess it is not needed to have them both active at the same time (until blizz nerfs ele pvp damage to say the least).
    - earthbind totem is an aoe snare that is up 66% of the time, it works simply different than ring of frost or ice trap, its a totally different ability
    66%? What about Earth Elemental, Stonebulwark and Tremor, sharing the slot? Also, what's so different betweenice trap and ebt? both have a stationary aoe snare. The difference is that ice trap is undestructible, invisible, throwable baseline and with a 30second duration and cooldown, it can be down 100% of the time.
    Oh and ebt blocks other earth totems, and cannot be used while silenced.
    A hunter or moonkin planting their snares on nagrand bridge or around a pillar, nothing you can do against it. Shaman? give it a nudge while you pass by and its gone. A druid can place his shrooms even in a triangular fashion around a pillar, removing all snare free room.
    - totems are part of ele shamans, always been. Fire elemental and earth elemental are damn nice abilities, even more when you talent them. dont see whats wrong with those
    They are mobile pets tied to immobile totems. Also their totems have a speck of the elements' hp, and can be quickly sniped. That's what's wrong. Totems being a part of every shaman has got nothing to do with pets simply having no place among them. Also EET has been useless except for solo questing/soloing old content all the way up to mop, where its role stayed mainly the same, with the exception of providing resto with some extra heal. There's no reason whatsoever why elementals cannot be summoned like a water elemental, or demon. Every single other pet (and even mages and dks got permanent ones) isn't tied like that, why ours? And the totemic elemental restrictions (one element per totem) are also very restricting, for EET to say the least (FET would be op due to several fire totems at once).
    - sbt isnt the strongest, true, it will get buffed next patch. but its not like its not useful at all in pve, just like astral shift is
    The initial absorb will see a little buff, that's all. The ticking absorb still wont stack, will still be weak, will still be destroyable (a sv ability? really?), will still go on for 30seconds in which the totem will block the spot of others...still horrible design, still useless in pvp (why? because it's a totem).
    You don't mention Wind Shear, Grounding, Purge and Tremor totem in your utility list.
    Grounding was mentioned, you even responded to it (me too). Wind Shear was mentioned before as well (I think). Enh relied on its short cooldown because of insufficient gap closing. FrS was part of that deal as well. Still enh was inferior in terms of uptime with the old windshear, and that was in times where gw did not force a precious glyph spot, shamans had basic movement speed increase through a talent and Earthern Power.
    Dont get me wrong, being able to interrupt on range is great, always has been. And there's some situation where enh really benefits from it. A large part is also though that the short/er cd, plus range, were there as a bandaid, because of shaman lacking the gap closing of others. Well, and blizz being kinda lazy in developing new things (ranged interrupt has been part of shaman core features since vanilla).
    Grounding is one of the most powerful abilities that counters a ton of abilities that don't have many counters, on a very short cd (death grip, hunter trap, HoJ, cyclone, fear, poly, etc ...).
    True no doubt, though a spellreflect does all that as well, PLUS reflecting them back (which can be devastating in terms of cc)
    Tremor totem is the best anti fear in the game.
    With it getting a cooldown and the ability to use while feared, it'll be rare to break multiple fears with it (which was its core feature). Same as CPT, an aoe effect isn't worth that much if you cant land it on more than one person. With the old tremor we could regularly fear break allies (would've been even better with tp, actually making that a great talent). In most of its uses, it does not amount to much more than a fear break on a 1minute cd (which can for a few seconds break another fear).
    A warrior's berserker range does the same, except it not only break fear, but also sap/incapacitate, makes immune to all of them for 8 seconds, cannot be destroyed, generates rage, increases damage AND has half the cooldown.
    Purge is an incredible offensive dispel without a cd and a low mana cost.
    Purge depletes an enhance's mana bar with six casts. Not that cheap in my book. Trying to clean a target of 2-3 buffs, while using shocks and unleash and totems, often enough that's all it takes to oom an enh who is kited.
    Healing/off healing.
    Well, the other melees all have selfhealing now, dont they? I think warriors may have the least of it, but lots of sv cds to make more than up for that. Not saying our selfhealing isn't good. It is, but so is others.

    Yes there's points where enh can compete (not trump) on the same level with others. But on many others, he cant.
    Saying that the utility of shamans is sub par to others is just stupid.
    It is and I pointed out (more than once now) why I claim that is. You may disagree with that and I'll have to accept that, but at least I call no one or their opinion stupid.

    Really tell me which spec has more utility in total than a dps shaman.
    We may have a huge and bloated chunk of cds, but they're mostly weaker than others. Because of that we need to pop three cds were others use one, for similar gain. Also, just think of one, and only one scenario: An enemy who diligently stomps every cd totem he/she or his/her pet can get its hands/claws on.
    How much of that great utility is left? Less than half, easily.

    And hunters/rogues for instance have just as much pvp utility to show.
    Just rogues have multiple pvp poisons, finisher moves, many very powerful cooldowns like evasion, CoS and vanish, gouge, kick, shadowstep, sprint, smoke bomb, strong cc in blind, sap and strong stuns and many new ones with mop.
    Just an example how blouted hunter pvp utility is: they hardly ever use wing clip anymore (which was among their most important abilities in vanilla).
    Last edited by Omanley; 2013-07-05 at 10:15 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

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