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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Does that actually change anything? The answer is no the first impressions are made the mess is there, both faction war on the continent, stripmining bringing death and devastation, it is like the Alliance tries to get a fire under control, but throws in a canister Gasoline, by accident.
    I didn't say the first impressions were irrelevant or didn't happen. My point had more to do with what the Alliance as an organisation hoped to accomplish on Pandaria vs what the Horde wanted as a organisation. Not what shipwrecked captains were trying to accomplish.

    Sadly i'm not exactly keeping my own emotions in tact. I've realise I've been a bit ragey now that I've settled down. I'm gonna go hide in the corner before I embarrass myself any further.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2013-07-01 at 09:19 PM.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    They both represent their faction.

    Garrosh is simply far worse.

    I also think its important that this is the only instance you see of the Alliance acting in this way. You keep mentioning what the Gnomes do in Krasarang, and yet Blizzard nor any of the Pandaren characters ever mention this in a negative light.

    Perhaps it has something to do with Varian flat-out stating that their goal is to stop the Horde from conquering Pandaria, which is something Garrosh has repeatedly said, and not trying to do so themselves. They're called "Dominance Offensive" and "Operation: Shieldwall" for a reason.
    Yes, Garrosh is the worse - which I said a page or two ago. And no, you don't see Blizzard or any Pandaren mentioning the deforestation or stripming of Pandaria as a bad thing - but everyone knows that deforestation and stripmining is bad.

    And yes, they are indeed called "Operation: Shieldwall", however Varians idea of preventing a Horde conquest, is by conquering a piece of land himself.

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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Yes, Garrosh is the worse - which I said a page or two ago. And no, you don't see Blizzard or any Pandaren mentioning the deforestation or stripming of Pandaria as a bad thing - but everyone knows that deforestation and stripmining is bad.

    And yes, they are indeed called "Operation: Shieldwall", however Varians idea of preventing a Horde conquest, is by conquering a piece of land himself.
    Because they set up a base there to stop the Horde, they are conquering Pandaria? That's some flawed logic.

    I'm not sure how many times Varian or Anduin has to flat out say: "We're only here to stop the Horde" before the distinction sinks in. The Alliance can't do that if they don't establish their own base.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    Because they set up a base there to stop the Horde, they are conquering Pandaria? That's some flawed logic.

    I'm not sure how many times Varian or Anduin has to flat out say: "We're here to stop the Horde" before the distinction sinks in. The Alliance can't do that if they don't establish their own base.
    Currently they've conquered just as much of Pandaria as the Horde has.

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  5. #105
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    There is a key difference. The Alliance never claims to come to Pandaria to conquer it. Garrosh does.

    Does that mean the Alliance are innocent? Of course not. They have their share of fuck-ups. But this distinction is important and needs to be noted.



    Because of Garrosh basically causing the Fourth War. Also, see above comment.
    It can be noted sure, the Alliance has the moral high ground here, though it hardly matters Zhu hates them both, their arrival destroyed everything he held dear. He failed his duty because we brought our war to the continent.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Currently they've conquered just as much of Pandaria as the Horde has.
    .../facepalm

    Alright, I'm done.

  7. #107
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    Taran Zhu mostly just annoys me whenever he shows up, can't say I felt bad for beating the snot out of him in Shado-Pan Monastery, though the dungeon itself made me feel bad.

    Worst character though? Hardly. At least he's not ruining big plot points or anything, like the death of Deathwing.

  8. #108
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    He's one of the best characters characterized in the game.

    Are you not even going to explain your disdain for him?
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    .../facepalm

    Alright, I'm done.
    Nah, you were actualy done a few pages back.

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfKnees View Post
    Taran Zhu mostly just annoys me whenever he shows up, can't say I felt bad for beating the snot out of him in Shado-Pan Monastery, though the dungeon itself made me feel bad.

    Worst character though? Hardly. At least he's not ruining big plot points or anything, like the death of Deathwing.
    Bling bling sparkle sparkle death.
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
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  11. #111
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    I didn't say the first impressions were irrelevant or didn't happen. My point had more to do with what the Alliance as an organisation hoped to accomplish on Pandaria vs what the Horde wanted as a organisation. Not what shipwrecked captains were trying to accomplish.

    Sadly i'm not exactly keeping my own emotions in tact. I've been a bit ragey now that I've settled down. I'm gonna go hide in the corner before I embarrass myself any further.
    As I said the road to hell is paved with good intentions, a few rotten eggs can ruin everything, just ask the sunreavers ;P

    Ironically if the Alliance hadn't been there I think the Shado pan could have handled the horde, I have been hearing rumours about their badassery in the upcoming novel, but have yet to read it.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  12. #112
    From the Horde perspective, we crash-land in Jade Forest and get warned by Zhu, then:
    - We mortalize one of their gods and unleash the first of the seven dreaded evils he had been keeping in check.
    - Events of Jade Forest fester-up Krasarang and unleash the second one along with weakening one of their gods.
    - More sha activity around Pandaria and Zhu finally goes mad and bam 4 of the Sha that he was keeping under check escape
    - We sort of clear our mess and then bring our power-crazed Warchief into the continent and help him in his treasure-hunt
    - He gets inspired by the frickin' Sha in the meanwhile and begins seeking their source of this power of the destruction of the bell.
    - We kill the Thunder King which again kind of neutralizes our negativity in defiling Pandaria.
    - Then, however, we do the worst thing imaginable, thanks to Lotus's trust with us he orders the digging up of the vale.
    - Finally, we secure the heart of an old god.

    After that everything goes wrong and looking at from Zhu's PoV, I'd be pissed like hell as well.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    yeah because if you were sitting down after work to watch a nice movie and all of a sudden an army barged into your house and fucked everything and your schedule up you wouldnt act the exact same way
    #honestclap

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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Nah, you were actualy done a few pages back.
    There isn't a point in arguing lore with a partisan. That's all

    But I can appreciate the pomposity. Kudos.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Ironically if the Alliance hadn't been there I think the Shado pan could have handled the horde, I have been hearing rumours about their badassery in the upcoming novel, but have yet to read it.
    I don't think they could sadly. Like Necroxis pointed out in his video on Zhu the Shado Pan have been so stretched after we arrived what with the Mantid, Yaungol, Mogu, Zandalari and the Sha we caused. I don't think they would have it in them to then oppose Garrosh espcially if 5.4 is anything to go by with the Golden Lotus.

  16. #116
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    I don't think they could sadly. Like Necroxis pointed out in his video on Zhu the Shado Pan have been so stretched after we arrived what with the Mantid, Yaungol, Mogu, Zandalari and the Sha we caused. I don't think they would have it in them to then oppose Garrosh espcially if 5.4 is anything to go by with the Golden Lotus.
    Though if the Horde alone had arrived, do you think the Sha would have been unleashed? And ninja pandaren had killed the expedition force.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    I don't think they could sadly. Like Necroxis pointed out in his video on Zhu the Shado Pan have been so stretched after we arrived what with the Mantid, Yaungol, Mogu, Zandalari and the Sha we caused. I don't think they would have it in them to then oppose Garrosh.
    Not just that but even if the Shado Pan HAD attempted to obliterate both the Horde and Alliance while on Pandaria, those feelings of "War" would've STILL unleashed the Sha.

    No matter how you look at it, the fact we found Pandaria was fated. The doom that befell it was meant to happen.

    They couldn't just sit upon all that darkness and lock it away forever.

    At some point the Heart of Yshaarj was going to get out; the same goes for Yogg Saron, Cthun coming back to life, etc.

    You can't just bury a secret and expect it to stay buried.

    ---------- Post added 2013-07-01 at 10:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Though if the Horde alone had arrived, do you think the Sha would have been unleashed? And ninja pandaren had killed the expedition force.
    They would've been unleashed eventually.

    If you remember from the quests we did as we journeyed through Pandaria, the Sha were STILL manifesting. Sure, not in the sizes of the Sha of Fear nor Doubt or any of the others, but they were STILL bubbling to the surface.

    Eventually they were going to unleash in their fullest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
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  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post

    Ironically if the Alliance hadn't been there I think the Shado pan could have handled the horde, I have been hearing rumours about their badassery in the upcoming novel, but have yet to read it.
    Not sure about if they could handle the Horde, but they are pretty badass in the Vol'jin book. However, their main issue in the book is the fact that there are so little of them left to defend Pandaria after all that had happened.

    The big battle has to do with a Mogu/Zandalari army marching on the Monastery, and even then they only muster 33 members (Including Chen, Taran Zhu, Vol'jin, and Tyrathan [the token human]) to defend it.

    If you remember from the quests we did as we journeyed through Pandaria, the Sha were STILL manifesting. Sure, not in the sizes of the Sha of Fear nor Doubt or any of the others, but they were STILL bubbling to the surface.
    All of the Prime Sha unleashing which cause all the nonsense is because of the Horde and Alliance. Dave Kosak directly says this. They would not have unleashed had we not been there.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    I don't think they could sadly. Like Necroxis pointed out in his video on Zhu the Shado Pan have been so stretched after we arrived what with the Mantid, Yaungol, Mogu, Zandalari and the Sha we caused. I don't think they would have it in them to then oppose Garrosh espcially if 5.4 is anything to go by with the Golden Lotus.
    The Pandaren overthrew the friggin Mogu which held all the power and all the magic, servants of the titans themselves. The Horde or Alliance don't come close to that and no, raiding some abandoned titan caches like Ulduar, does not come close to fighting armies of titan servants with nothing but the bare fists.

  20. #120
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    They would've been unleashed eventually.

    If you remember from the quests we did as we journeyed through Pandaria, the Sha were STILL manifesting. Sure, not in the sizes of the Sha of Fear nor Doubt or any of the others, but they were STILL bubbling to the surface.

    Eventually they were going to unleash in their fullest.
    Indeed but then it would have been their own fault though.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

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