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  1. #41
    LFR doesn't make people learn their class. This game is a group game and it requires you to do nothing to get a group but afk for a que to pop. The best way to do an encoutner in LFR is to stand in everything, ignore every mechanic except the FEW that acutally can hurt or kill you (death beam on Durumu is the first one i can think of). It's no work for rewards. That's just not what a game should be. You should have to put in SOME effort to get any rewards.

    Flex raiding is actually DECENT. It makes you at least put some effort into getting a group, and MAYBE requres you to do mechanics. People that don't put in the effort shouldn't get rewards. Yes i am aware there needs to be things for casuals to do. They should get rewarded for it. Raid mounts that you can get from Flex raiding or LFR means it is worth nothing which saddens me. Over all i am in favor of flex raiding, but with it they need to removed LFR.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    Those people that play like shit aren't raiding normals, have no desire to raid normals and don't have the talent to do so. You're in heroic progression. You shouldn't be in LFR. If you choose to use it then let the people it's designed for have their fun.

    A heroic raider going into LFR is like Pele going to an amateur/rural soccer match and scoring 23 goals. While doing so he mocks and ridicules the individual players for their lack of talent.
    I am in heroic progression and i have to do LFR every week at a chance for the tank trinkets which have STILL NOT DROPPED after months in tot. even with coin rolls i still have not seen a tank trinket drop in Throne. They do not exist me thinks.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by sTyLnK View Post
    But is playing a few nights a week, a few hours a day on normal considered "hardcore"? I don't know if you can. I think it extends more to people who play much longer and work on much tougher bosses (heroic) etc. I think so, anyways.
    His guild is 13/13H so...I think he has a pretty good grasp on heroic raiding.

    With the introduction of Flex, I would personally like to see current-tier LFRs released at a much later date (~2-3 months after normal release). LFR's original intent was to offer a raiding solution for people who weren't interested in organized raiding but I think they fumbled LFR by making it so easy. Flex raiding provides a good alternative to normal raiding by making it puggable and easy enough that groups won't be running into walls for hours on end (while not making it SO easy that you can literally AFK through it). Making it puggable (vs. queuing via clicking a button) requires social interaction and helps to foster community within your server as well as with friends via Real ID. It's also a step up from LFR for anyone who might be interested in normal or heroic raiding and will be a much more realistic raiding experience opposed to what we see in LFR today.

    LFR can still exist for players who may play the game very casually and want an easy option to see content and get "current" gear (albiet late in the raiding cycle). It can also be a good tool for newer players to use to get acquainted with a (watered down) raiding environment and a way for them to get geared up.

  4. #44
    I get that the schedule thing is tough for some, but the people doing LFR on 2-3 characters, you likely play enough as is to make it work.

    /shrug

    All in all, they're "big deals" not because they give loot to casual players, but because they offer this hollow experience that isn't going to last you more than a couple weeks. At least Blizzard has the sense to stagger the wings, which artificially drags out the gameplay.



    Flex raids? What LFR should of been. Get an organized group (socialize), do bosses that are hopefully close to their actual raid versions (effort), and not come into it with 100% win rate expected (accomplishment). Key components to a good raid model.
    Last edited by fangless; 2013-07-02 at 07:15 PM.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I dont think the problem people is having is that people want to be special snowflakes.

    The problem is rather that LFR is destroying the community and encouraging people to play like shit.

    The problem with the legendary chain I do not think is about LFR/Flex/Normal, rather the design of the chain itself being just horrible. That said, personally I would prefer not being able to get legendary parts from the chain since it is annoying having to queue to LFR if you sat out on a boss in the normal raid. But that is just me being egotistical.
    I actually agree with most of what you have said in this thread.

    Community and depth of the game VS. convenience
    There is a sweet spot in there somewhere. I think they went too far by adding LFR. I think it would be too little without LFD. I think that LFR should be removed now that flex is in place (may be too late :S). Just like Heroic Scenarios I think that flex would have been a massive success. It will help encourage servercommunity and pugging, which is what LFR destroyed.

    I really do understand the intend of LFR: People that cannot commit to a scedule are allowed to see the best content that blizzard makes. It just hasn't worked out from my point of view. LFR is only fun the first time you do it. Afterwards it's just --> queue up and collect your loot. You can see that most people view it like that just by looking at the atmosphere in the lfr run. "Everybody" is annoyed by having to spend that time there. You say/do one wrong thing and the flamewar starts. The intent was good, but it just removes too much from the game.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by wrynil View Post
    you shouldnt be able to get a legendary by afk'ing a few weeks. Which Lfr allows you to ^^ .
    When 25 afk people kill a boss, let me know. Hell, let us all know.

  7. #47
    Bloodsail Admiral Annarion's Avatar
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    The real story behind LFR hate is this feeling that gamers are elite. That everyone who plays games sits and plays them to exhaustion, to become the best they possibly could. This is ultimately a result of the gaming culture in Japan/Asia, where it's very much the case. You'll also find that gamers in those countries are far less accepted in society, much like MLG competitors aren't really accepted in North America. I don't mean that in a "anyone who's part of MLG is shunned forever" kind of way, simply a pop-culture media exposure kind of way. It's cool for Jay Z to rap about Madden 2014, but ESPN isn't picking up a LoL feed anytime soon. When games were primarily published by Japanese companies, they were difficult and exclusive. They were also bad for business. When Microsoft released the Xbox, with it's sports games and all-North American publisher list, gaming went from being nerdy to being cool overnight. The market for gaming changed drastically, and ended up being geared for the masses.

    This is the truth of gaming, and the truth of LFR. Most gamers are not very good at games. They play for the bit of fun, and are not interested in a high level of challenge, regardless of how good the rewards are. 95% of people playing this game are doing just that: playing. Heroic raiders are becoming more marginalized by the patch, which reflects the fact that they are a tiny minority of all subscriptions. This forum is a community made up of primarily "hardcore gamers", ie: people who don't play games, they excel at them. Your experiences here might show that most people resent LFR, and that most people are at least middle of the road players. This is untrue. The greater majority of WoW players are terrible at video games. Far more people are "LFR Heroes" than are even in normal raids. The fact is that it's a vocal minority calling for more difficulty and scrapping LFR/Flex.

    This isn't to say that WoW can't continue to be challenging and rewarding, but realize that the content made for you is only made for about 5% of the playerbase. If you don't believe me, chew on this: There are still more people who have never even queued for LFR than all of LFR, Normal and Heroic raids put together. You think the bads in LFR are bad? They are the best of the worst and they're still above the average.

  8. #48
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    They are a big deal because they rob raid guilds of power(not a bad thing IMO). They are a big deal because it gives the developers freedom to focus on making raids instead of abandoning the raid model for other content. Depending on the group you talk to they are a big deal for a number of reasons and often contrary ones.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #49
    being able to do achieves on flex is gonna be a huge deal

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    LFR deflates the myth that the game revolves around hard raiding, or that hard content is popular. This leads to a kind of existential dread in the hardcore mind, that their play style is only tenously viable, and that Blizzard might choose to abandon them.
    They know that reality (girlfriend, spouse, child, work, ...) will inevitably put an end to organizing evenings around 3 x 3hr uninterruptible blocks of video game time, especially if it involves sitting alone talking to the computer screen occasionally making oddly excited noises.

    It's obviously a weird, unsustainable style of gameplay, and everyone knows it. Blizzard knows it for sure. There are a few of Blizzard's customers who don't know it, though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    His guild is 13/13H so...I think he has a pretty good grasp on heroic raiding.

    With the introduction of Flex, I would personally like to see current-tier LFRs released at a much later date (~2-3 months after normal release). LFR's original intent was to offer a raiding solution for people who weren't interested in organized raiding but I think they fumbled LFR by making it so easy. Flex raiding provides a good alternative to normal raiding by making it puggable and easy enough that groups won't be running into walls for hours on end (while not making it SO easy that you can literally AFK through it). Making it puggable (vs. queuing via clicking a button) requires social interaction and helps to foster community within your server as well as with friends via Real ID. It's also a step up from LFR for anyone who might be interested in normal or heroic raiding and will be a much more realistic raiding experience opposed to what we see in LFR today.

    LFR can still exist for players who may play the game very casually and want an easy option to see content and get "current" gear (albiet late in the raiding cycle). It can also be a good tool for newer players to use to get acquainted with a (watered down) raiding environment and a way for them to get geared up.
    Flex isn't going to be puggable by LFR players unless the difficulty that's planned for it is considerably reduced.

    Normal mode is completely inaccessible to players who normally only play LFR. Not "hard" but "completely inaccessible." Tune that down a notch and call it "flex" and it will still be too hard. The only people who have progressed in normal modes during this expansion have been, basically, heroic mode raiders who have had organizational or time problems that prevent them from doing heroic.

    Basically, if flex requires voice chat for pugging, it's too hard, and will be an even more marginal activity than heroic raiding.

    But keep on wearing those rose-colored glasses.

  11. #51
    If people are AFK'ing through LFR and the rest, or at least majority of the raid chooses to ignore that, then can you really say that is problem with LFR ?
    No, because it is not.
    There can be endless discussions on where the difficulty of LFR should be, but that fact remains.
    Tools being available but not used is a player, and a community problem.

    Flex still requires the organisational requirement, of at least around 8-10 people.
    Something too many seem to ignore, when it does not support their anti-LFR bashing.
    Flex will not replace LFR.
    Flex is not some superior version of raiding to LFR.
    Flex is only a fix for a problem in normal raiding, which potentially if the community can get over itself long enough can offer an opportunity to get people out of LFR.
    But given past and repeating discussion, then I cannot see that happening.
    Last edited by ComputerNerd; 2013-07-03 at 12:22 PM.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    Flex is only a fix for a problem in normal raiding, which potentially if the community can get over itself long enough can offer an opportunity to get people out of LFR.
    But given past and repeating discussion, then I cannot see that happening.
    I see Flex pugging subject to the same old stupid elitist crap that pervades the current pugging scene. I really don't see "friends & family" or "beer league" players sitting down to attack bosses that are just about as hard as MoP normal modes, and certainly I don't see them enjoying it. So it will be basically the same old HC or HC-wannabe raiders and alts of raiders, and a few other people they deem worthy of inclusion.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    I see Flex pugging subject to the same old stupid elitist crap that pervades the current pugging scene.
    It may be even worse, since (assuming they have enough of each role and no odd glitches in difficulty) kicking the lowest performing player will improve the odds of downing a boss.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    I see Flex pugging subject to the same old stupid elitist crap that pervades the current pugging scene. I really don't see "friends & family" or "beer league" players sitting down to attack bosses that are just about as hard as MoP normal modes, and certainly I don't see them enjoying it. So it will be basically the same old HC or HC-wannabe raiders and alts of raiders, and a few other people they deem worthy of inclusion.
    I see plenty of players who can't commit to a raiding schedule but still want a better experience than LFR. Also a lot of social guilds who feel that Normal is tuned above their gear level. If it doesn't appeal to you, then you don't need to get involved with it; just be mindful that not everybody enjoys the same things as you

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    You should probably search for one of the already existing threads on this topic.
    This. No reason to go over this again. Everyone got their opinion and arguments and this thread will only turn into a flamewar again :P.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And I have to join in as usual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bench333 View Post
    I see plenty of players who can't commit to a raiding schedule but still want a better experience than LFR. Also a lot of social guilds who feel that Normal is tuned above their gear level. If it doesn't appeal to you, then you don't need to get involved with it; just be mindful that not everybody enjoys the same things as you
    Easy to say. If you need to catch up then skipping LFR makes no sense at all. That's the problem I have with it. If we could actually REALLY not get involved then there would be much less complaints.
    The other problem I have with it is that the effort/reward is just out of control compared to normal and heroic raiding. The difference in rewards is just a few ilvls but the difference in effort put in is huge.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    Easy to say. If you need to catch up then skipping LFR makes no sense at all. That's the problem I have with it. If we could actually REALLY not get involved then there would be much less complaints.
    The other problem I have with it is that the effort/reward is just out of control compared to normal and heroic raiding. The difference in rewards is just a few ilvls but the difference in effort put in is huge.
    I was talking about Flex raiding - I'm fairly sure Flex will not be a prerequisite to getting into LFR if the difficulty is higher. I'm assuming anyone who doesn't want to go any further than LFR will never be bothered by flex at all. Maybe Normal guilds will be affected by it though if theres such a big jump from ToT to SoO, but that might mean Normal guilds can skip LFR after-all.
    Last edited by Bench333; 2013-07-03 at 01:49 PM.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    If people are AFK'ing through LFR and the rest, or at least majority of the raid chooses to ignore that, then can you really say that is problem with LFR ?
    No, because it is not.
    There can be endless discussions on where the difficulty of LFR should be, but that fact remains.
    Tools being available but not used is a player, and a community problem.

    Flex still requires the organisational requirement, of at least around 8-10 people.
    Something too many seem to ignore, when it does not support their anti-LFR bashing.
    Flex will not replace LFR.
    Flex is not some superior version of raiding to LFR.
    Flex is only a fix for a problem in normal raiding, which potentially if the community can get over itself long enough can offer an opportunity to get people out of LFR.
    But given past and repeating discussion, then I cannot see that happening.
    Apparently those tools are not very practical then. Do you want to spend your playtime with having to kick random players every group you join? Or do you rather just ignore it and get it over with? Because Blizzard actually gave you that option, Blizzard did that and not us.
    So it is not simply a player or community problem.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bench333 View Post
    I was talking about Flex raiding - I'm fairly sure Flex will not be a prerequisite to getting into LFR if the difficulty is higher. I'm assuming anyone who doesn't want to go any further than LFR will never be bothered by flex at all. Maybe Normal guilds will be affected by it though if theres such a big jump from ToT to SoO, but that might mean Normal guilds can skip LFR after-all.
    Oh sorry. Well, it still depends on how flex raiding is going to turn out. I think we will have to wait untill we can experience it ourselves.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by crispy325 View Post
    why are lfr and flex raid such a big deal ..was just on youtube for a few hours looking up new info about SoO and boss fights and almost every video i watched was people talking about how lfr was the worst thing ever to come to wow and its just not fair that they can do legendary quest's when they dont even raid normal or how flex raid is just a redo of lfr and blizzard shouldnt be catering to the "casual" players of wow.....i mean if ur raiding 10 and 25 man why do you care that the little guy who cant get a raid grp or has no time to be a raider can complete a legendary quest itl take him 4x longer then you to get whatever done or how blizzard is giving people epics well dam i bet you wouldnt complain if that was you trying to gear up and flex raid they might have said "friends and family" but what all i hear is comming from people is Family. Its for both and casuals and people who cant get any further on bosses does nothing but help people in fact ...maybe its just that 1% of hardcore raiders that feel like if they dont put in 40 + hours a week into a "GAME!!!!!" that they shouldnt gear gear and rewards not like your competing for worlds first with some guy in full lfr gear lol ...................whats the big deal with it
    It's the power the internet gives to anyone who likes to be that anonymous poster. Got a problem, no matter how itsy bitsy tiny? Complain on the internet and inflate it to new levels. That's all it is. It's the elite's shouting and yelling that their precious part of the game must not be tainted by the low lives that have no clue how to play.

    While I understand those complaints, I think they're just blowing hot air for the sake of it. The elites are worried that they won't be recognized and revered for their awesome accomplishments even though you can tell a pro from a noob by their skills, achievements and the guild they are in. Loudmouths are usually the noobs themselves.

    Raidfinder is a nice place to farm those damn legendary items next to running normal/hc mode. Or getting an extra shot at the tier items. Besides that I avoid it like the plague. It was made to function with little to no communication, yet still so many ppl don't read (or cba to) chat for a few simple instructions and mess it up at the expense of everyone else. But that's the egotistic human nature I've come to expect from too many ppl. Flexmode will be a nice addition imo to run semi-raidfinder with just a guildgroup and no outsiders who go AFK half the time and not only expect to be carried but get carried as well.
    Last edited by Vayshan; 2013-07-03 at 02:00 PM.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    They know that reality (girlfriend, spouse, child, work, ...) will inevitably put an end to organizing evenings around 3 x 3hr uninterruptible blocks of video game time, especially if it involves sitting alone talking to the computer screen occasionally making oddly excited noises.

    It's obviously a weird, unsustainable style of gameplay, and everyone knows it. Blizzard knows it for sure. There are a few of Blizzard's customers who don't know it, though.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Flex isn't going to be puggable by LFR players unless the difficulty that's planned for it is considerably reduced.

    Normal mode is completely inaccessible to players who normally only play LFR. Not "hard" but "completely inaccessible." Tune that down a notch and call it "flex" and it will still be too hard. The only people who have progressed in normal modes during this expansion have been, basically, heroic mode raiders who have had organizational or time problems that prevent them from doing heroic.

    Basically, if flex requires voice chat for pugging, it's too hard, and will be an even more marginal activity than heroic raiding.

    But keep on wearing those rose-colored glasses.
    Yes, extremely weird to "talk to your computer". You also "talk to your phone" but I guess that's different because it's accepted by more people... That unsustainable and weird style of gameplay made games what they are now.

    You also need to really understand what inaccessible means and that normal and even heroic raiding can be done without voice chat.

    Rose-colored glasses? I think you are wearing some kind of glasses, not sure what I am going to call them yet.

  20. #60
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    it is not lfr fault for the community, i quit raiding in 4.1, and if it wasnt for lfr coming in 4.3, I wouldn't have seen inside ds or any of 5.0 raids, and I know others in the same boat as I. Wanna know what really ruined the community? It was crz.

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