1. #1

    Combat rogues taking Cloak and Dagger? (Holinka tweet)

    https://twitter.com/holinka/status/354727547403116544


    Briefly:

    A rogue asks if Shadowstep could be baseline, implying that Cloak and Dagger and Burst of Speed are not used much. Holinka replies that they considered that, but that burst and cloak and dagger have some uses for certain specs.

    The easy target is cloak and dagger- which I don't see rogues using, and as a rogue, don't even consider for arena- but Holinka fields that question, pointing out that many of the few 2200+ combat rogues are actually using that in arena.


    What are we missing?


    I doubt very much that a 2200+ combat rogue is ready and willing to field this question, but maybe. More importantly, I know there are high ranked PvPers in this forum so my question to you is:

    if you've ever seen a high rated combat rogue (they exist but are pretty rare), was he using cloak and dagger, and if so, why?


    For those unfamiliar with the rogue talent tier, the choices on live are:
    > Shadowstep, a teleport that works as long as you are in control and not rooted, has 24 second cooldown, a 25 yard range, and puts you right behind the target with a very short duration sprint (the sprint is there to counter the server lag).
    > Burst of Speed, a 30 energy move that frees you from most snares (but not roots) and simultaneously gives you a 4 second 70% speed boost.
    > Cloak and Dagger, a talent that makes the three traditional rogue openers (ambush, garrote, and cheap shot) have a 20 yard range and teleport you to the target. Unlike in 5.2, this does not function with shadow dance.


    So, what am I missing?



    When replying, remember:

    > Holinka's data is for rogues that actually played a match with combat and cloak and dagger at a strong rating.
    > There are high rated combat rogues, but they are rare. I'm not even sure what comps they run.
    > I'm not sure if this is 2s, 3s, 5s, or both- the tweets didn't give that info.



    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Basically what Woundman does is wait until he has 3 stacks of Insight, stealth up, and then macro cheap shot everyone on the enemy team (Targets 1-3) until he gets teleported to someone who is by themselves and then he pops Smoke Bomb, On-Use Trinket, Shadow Blades and Killing Spree for an easy kill. There is actually some brief discussion about why Combat Rogues all prefer CnD in the latest ArenaJunkies podcast. Many feel it is mandatory for Combat to have any success with their Killing Sprees.
    Last edited by achromatickang; 2013-07-11 at 03:33 PM.

  3. #3
    ACES


    Thank you.

  4. #4
    The only combat rogue over 2.2k is woundman, and trying to make an argument based on "evidence" from 1 or 2 players is retarded. Step should be baseline for sub

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Illiterate View Post
    The only combat rogue over 2.2k is woundman, and trying to make an argument based on "evidence" from 1 or 2 players is retarded. Step should be baseline for sub
    Actually I agree with you that Step should be baseline, and that tier of Talents should be options that each alter Shadow Step in a different way (similar to Warrior's charge). That being said.. there aren't a lot of Sub Rogues over 2200 right now either. When you filter the results, it shows 18, but only a handful of those players have been active since the 5.3 nerfs. But yeah, Holinka citing one player for class balance is just a cop out. Rogues need some major changes, and I do think baseline Step would be amazing if it had a talent tier based around it. Right now that entire Talent Tier feels pointless since most of us do take step anyways, and being that mobility is one of our biggest weaknesses it could literally fix our class.
    Last edited by achromatickang; 2013-07-11 at 04:16 PM.

  6. #6
    Holinka didn't cite one player. He pointed to "high rated combat rogues" and made gestures relating to their internal metrics (which I take at face value- if these guys descended on twitter to make baldfaced lies to the 2% of the playerbase that is all about the game and likes to listen to them chat, then we're already in la-la land). While there are not a lot of combat rogues that are well rated (or rogues in general), it's still interesting.

    For what it is worth, I do not believe step should be baseline. In fact, out of the entire terribly designed talent system, the rogue mobility tier is one of the few things done almost correctly- you can pick which mobility talent to take. I believed cloak and dagger to be useless, so I'm very interested in this.

    I still think the move should be erased and replaced with something better.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Holinka didn't cite one player. He pointed to "high rated combat rogues" and made gestures relating to their internal metrics (which I take at face value- if these guys descended on twitter to make baldfaced lies to the 2% of the playerbase that is all about the game and likes to listen to them chat, then we're already in la-la land). While there are not a lot of combat rogues that are well rated (or rogues in general), it's still interesting.

    For what it is worth, I do not believe step should be baseline. In fact, out of the entire terribly designed talent system, the rogue mobility tier is one of the few things done almost correctly- you can pick which mobility talent to take. I believed cloak and dagger to be useless, so I'm very interested in this.

    I still think the move should be erased and replaced with something better.
    I think we presumed that Holinka referred to Woundman solely because when you filter the PVP ladders by 2200+ Combat Rogues, Woundman is the only one.

    The next runner up is 2100, but if you click on his armory, you will note that he actually plays as Mutilate. He simply identifies as Combat because he has it as an off spec. I think a lot of people think the mobility Tier for Rogues is in bad shape because of the fact that no Rogues really touch BoS or CnD. :-\ Maybe that will change, but who knows?

  8. #8
    Currently there are only 6 combat rogues over 2200 across us and eu and kr... Out of those 6 2 have cnd. So rogues not getting shadow step baseline and new tier was based of like .1% of what top rogues are taking? Sounds like some bs he just threw out there.

    Lets just say for a sec every 2200+ combat rogue took it. Ok so not helping the whole class was based off 6 people world wide.....
    Last edited by wow; 2013-07-11 at 05:57 PM.

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