1. #1

    [PVP] Will Rogues be overpowered in 5.4?

    If you're anything like me the then this title probably made you laugh.

    But I was listening to that latest Podcast from ArenaJunkies and all of the Glad. Rogues pointed out how Rogues started off horrible in Season 9 and ended up being wrecking balls by Season 11 because of how well Rogues scale with gear. These Rogues claimed that Legendary, and other PVE items were barely seen at higher ratings and yet the Rogue damage was still insane in upper brackets because the item scaling had snowballed? What are your thoughts? Could this happen again? Keep in mind that a lot of other classes are also getting nerfed which is an indirect buff to our class.

    This is the podcast I'm referring to by the way, but it's kind of long, and I don't remember which segment mentioned this as I watched it several hours ago.

    MOD NOTE: Don't get into anti-rogue attacks or Q_Q about how OP rogues have been in the past. Keep discussion to theory about 5.4 - with reasons - and please remember to take a breath before typing if you feel angry. Thanks! - Mugajak
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-07-02 at 05:50 PM.

  2. #2
    I think that backstab and ambush being far, far weaker than in Cata will help prevent that happening again (at least to anywhere near the extend of Cata). A large part of sub's scaling in Cata had to do with the really large damage bonuses and crit bonuses on our more spammable attacks (which were actually the bulk of our damage).

  3. #3
    Yes, it did make me laugh

    Something they were also all in agreement on is that rogues, in their current state aren't tournament viable and have problems.
    I recall rogues in season 10, prior to expansion end season 11 (when most of the complaints about rogues being OP showed up). They felt 100 times more complete as a class than they do currently.

    The most significant difference between 10 and 11 was indeed the extra damage, specifically, what you could do within stuns. But back then, I was able to almost stick to my targets due to a 70% constant snare. My recoup was useful and competitive vs other heals, the effectiveness and uniqueness of stealth was greater and our lock outs and CC were feared by other classes (remember OP double smoke bomb?)

    Will a little more damage change rogues fortunes in arena next season? No way. And don't forget the potential of item scaling is now being controlled due to item level capping.
    Sure, its a valid point that our control will get a bit of a buff due to others losing some, but then, it's more of a shake up than a buff. For example, when playing double dps, the biggest kill opportunity for a rogue vs a DK is to lock him up before he gets the runic power to IBF, this opportunity will no longer exist in 5.4.

  4. #4
    Banned Ryan Cailan Ebonheart's Avatar
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    I think Ghostcrawler more or less said that Rogues aren't getting any major changes in 5.4. Which means Sub will still be trash which means Rogues will still be trash.

    However, there is a slight possibility that Sub may be good because S14 pvp gear is set to Ilevel 522. That means Sinister Calling is going to scale pretty high like it did in season 11, giving Rogues a good chuck of damage. Not to mention pvp power at that gear level is around 43-46%. So I don't know honestly. They need to do something about Assassination Mastery and Venomous Wounds in pvp though. That shit is getting way out of hand.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    I think that backstab and ambush being far, far weaker than in Cata will help prevent that happening again (at least to anywhere near the extend of Cata). A large part of sub's scaling in Cata had to do with the really large damage bonuses and crit bonuses on our more spammable attacks (which were actually the bulk of our damage).
    That was something those guys had pointed out too, that backstab hits for like 10K now, making Rogue damage terrible outside of burst. I doubt this will change dude to PVE ramifications unfortunately. :-\ Even though I've never met a hardcore, or even decent Sub. Rogue in the entirety of MoP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    They need to do something about Assassination Mastery and Venomous Wounds in pvp though. That shit is getting way out of hand.

    As someone who is currently able to play at moderately high rating as Assassination I keep worrying and actually finding it surprising that this hasn't been nerfed yet, but I don't think it's going to happen because of what that would do to Rogues in raids. I'm also not sure it would necessarily qualify as that OP as it's still largely underrepresented for the most part. It feels like being an Unholy Death Knight with only one trinket instead of two, and not near as potent burst. It also is not effective against teams who know how to remove poisons, pop AMS, cloak etc. to avoid the damage altogether.
    Last edited by achromatickang; 2013-07-02 at 11:39 AM.

  6. #6
    As someone who is currently able to play at moderately high rating as Assassination I keep worrying and actually finding it surprising that this hasn't been nerfed yet, but I don't think it's going to happen because of what that would do to Rogues in raids. I'm also not sure it would necessarily qualify as that OP as it's still largely underrepresented for the most part. It feels like being an Unholy Death Knight with only one trinket instead of two, and not near as potent burst. It also is not effective against teams who know how to remove poisons, pop AMS, cloak etc. to avoid the damage altogether.
    The spec is only effective in a comp that allows you high uptime, which limits you a lot. W/O freedoms or a partner with great control, you spend a great deal of time in roots / crawling towards targets.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Ouchy View Post
    The spec is only effective in a comp that allows you high uptime, which limits you a lot. W/O freedoms or a partner with great control, you spend a great deal of time in roots / crawling towards targets.
    lol I actually feel you on this subject, but have to say that Mutilate and Subtlety both seem to have same horrible mobility. The only difference being that when Subtlety does catch up to someone they have a chance to make it count (S-Dance), where as with Mutilate you catch up to someone and don't really do anything at all.

  8. #8
    Has anyone done any math on how shadow priests, boomkins, and warlocks losing that 10-15% damage mitigation and gaining that 60% armor passive is going to effect rogues? Would it maybe better to move towards envenom or is 60% armor no big deal and overall your just guna do more damage?

  9. #9
    Banned Ryan Cailan Ebonheart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by helic View Post
    Has anyone done any math on how shadow priests, boomkins, and warlocks losing that 10-15% damage mitigation and gaining that 60% armor passive is going to effect rogues? Would it maybe better to move towards envenom or is 60% armor no big deal and overall your just guna do more damage?
    Those nerfs to those casters is a huge indirect buff to Rogues or any melee. Perhaps Sub Rogues don't need a Find Weakness nerf Revert.

  10. #10
    One can only hope Rogues will see their glory days of 4.3 again

    But I think Rogues will continue to be weak in 5.4

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    One can only hope Rogues will see their glory days of 4.3 again

    But I think Rogues will continue to be weak in 5.4

    LOL I miss every OP season. I played heavily during Season 9 when Rogues were allegedly horrible (I didn't feel it at the time), and Season 13, and post 5.3 Season 14. I even feel semi viable right now, but as I'm pushing higher ratings I'm finding like a burden to my team. It's too easy to shut me down completely, and I can't help but feel as if I were any other class that my team would have a lot more success. Was great for the first 2K rating though.

  12. #12
    Mechagnome Wootylicious's Avatar
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    Rogue's will b ok in 5.4 due to scaling and some shit that counters as atm being nerfed abit.

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