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  1. #361
    i like the idea of making dungeons harder- and making it basically a requirement that you'd need a competent group of 5 to do them

    and it even makes sense, think about it, if your 5 man group finally progresses and finishes dungeons the next logical step is 10 man raiding, what's the best way of getting 10 people together? combine 2 dungeon groups. you get everything you need, 2 heals, 2 tanks, 6 dps (though maybe 3 heals 5 dps, it depends and that's kind of the way it goes I guess)

  2. #362
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudor View Post
    Its not. I clear 13 HC in 1 night.

    Back in the good ol days players needed MONTHS to kill a boss world first, Kael thas for example. Raiding now is nothing compared to what it used to be.
    I could point out that you are so far removed from what the majority of the player base can potentially do that your experience is null and void. However you would probably ignore that and insist NO IT'S EASY GET BETTER. Well it's not easy relative to what everyone else can do. It's not even easy relative to other video games. Normal on stacraft or diablo is such a breeze... normal sc2 holds your hand so fucking much..
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #363
    Herald of the Titans RicardoZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudor View Post
    Its not. I clear 13 HC in 1 night.

    Back in the good ol days players needed MONTHS to kill a boss world first, Kael thas for example. Raiding now is nothing compared to what it used to be.
    You're not taking a lot of things into account though. Theorycrafting wasn't at all like it is now back then. Back then there weren't 100 videos of how to successfully complete every encounter in the tier on YouTube 2 months before the content went live. There weren't class guides on every site and things weren't being datamined as much, so you didn't know exactly how to gear up months in advance.

    Players today have so many more advantages than players did then. That's really more of the reason that content doesn't last as long, because people already know how to do it before it's even out. I guarantee you Kael'Thas would have lasted about two weeks in today's climate, if that.

  4. #364
    Just break all addons. It would be funny watching people get so mad. I mean how did we ever play and raid in Everquest without addons? Oh yea we were just better.

  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudor View Post
    Its not. I clear 13 HC in 1 night.

    Back in the good ol days players needed MONTHS to kill a boss world first, Kael thas for example. Raiding now is nothing compared to what it used to be.
    Kael was bugged and overtuned. Once 2.1 was out it took 5 days to see the world first.

    On the other hand, BT took just over one week to clear.
    So this is just false.

  6. #366
    Hah, what? Game is too easy? Like many others have said, have you even tried current heroic raiding? If not, this thread is moot.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mudor View Post
    Its not. I clear 13 HC in 1 night.

    Back in the good ol days players needed MONTHS to kill a boss world first, Kael thas for example. Raiding now is nothing compared to what it used to be.
    You're also ridiculously wrong. Back in the "good ol days" as you call it, bosses were horrendously buggy and unkillable and overtuned and half, if not more specs in the game were just useless. None of the bosses till MAYBE SWP were actually hard. Wrath brought actual difficulty to raiding. You're confusing overtuned/buggy with being hard and something tells me you not only didn't raid in previous expansions but have been talking to the wrong people.

    Also, progression raiding is different from farm raiding. How long did it take you to fully clear the tier originally? You can't compare stuff on farm with stuff on progression.

    tl;dr: Your argument is ridiculously flawed and you give hardcore raiders a bad name.

    Pretty much all suggestions I've seen don't actually make the game harder. It makes the game more annoying. I play WoW to raid, I don't like leveling (past initial expansion release craze) and I don't want it to be increasingly more annoying. Grind doesn't equal difficulty. Taking away crutches doesn't make the game easier, it makes the game more frustrating.

    And you people are increasingly forgetting one vital aspect. The game is geared towards the casual gamer, as are most games that want to have mass market appeal. If you truly want a challenge, gear your character and apply to a raiding guild. Otherwise, be content with what you have.

    Also, BC was not harder than MoP or any other expansion. Maybe heroic 5 mans initially, but once you were raid geared, they were a joke. The raids were simplistic and easy as well. Take off rose tinted glasses.
    Last edited by Brakthir; 2013-07-04 at 07:09 AM.

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir View Post
    Hah, what? Game is too easy? Like many others have said, have you even tried current heroic raiding? If not, this thread is moot.
    Repeating a previously dismantled argument doesn't help the discussion at all.
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  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Repeating a previously dismantled argument doesn't help the discussion at all.
    Neither do the multitude of irrational, poorly thought out and flatly unworkable "ideas" that have been posted.

  9. #369
    Overall I'd like to see more difficulty choices not just harder Content. For Example, some people complained that Cataclysm levelling content was too easy, and I feel for very skilled players who are underchallenged by something like Uldum where your Questing consists of lone Pygmys and Scorpions. The best density you can find is pulling three but it is still very easy. In Pandaland however, some people complained about the higher Level zones being too hard.

    What I would prefer is some difficulty Choice even while Questing, for Example you pick hard Mode and all Mobs activate Special Abilities and increase their damage done to you but also drop a bit better Loot and chance to drop 1 Justice Point or 1 Valor Point.


    Raids I don't mind now with FlexRaid so people can have up to 6 Difficultioes: Buffed LFR after failing, Raidfinder, FlexRaid, Normal, Heroic, and Elite choice for something like Council of Elders. Really, Heroic Council of Elders Elite Mode are propably harder than any Difficulty you wish for by making the Game "harder"

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoZ View Post
    I was browsing through another thread here that was all about how the game is "too easy" now. It made some good points but didn't really offer any insight in how they should put some difficulty back into the game.

    First I think you have to define difficulty. For some people it means inaccessibility, for others it means having their actual gameplay skills pushed to the limit, and still others consider it a matter of time and effort. Is it a combination of the three or some variation on them?

    So tell me how you define difficulty in World of Warcraft, then say what you would do to turn it up a notch.

    For me I think it's about gameplay skills. I've been wanting something like Proving Grounds and/or Brawler's Guild for a long time and I think it will be a great way to really test that. But it's certainly not the only thing that adds challenge to the game.
    Well, WoW have a REALLY hard content already.If you guys are good enough just to reach the "EASY STUFF", well... It's not really a problem with the game.

  11. #371
    To me it's gameplay skill too. There's just nothing hard about taking forever to actually get to the content. That doesn't make the content hard at all.

    Off topic I saw that the proving grounds mentioned have a certain dps so does that mean blizz is putting a dps meter into the game?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fincher View Post
    Overall I'd like to see more difficulty choices not just harder Content. For Example, some people complained that Cataclysm levelling content was too easy, and I feel for very skilled players who are underchallenged by something like Uldum where your Questing consists of lone Pygmys and Scorpions. The best density you can find is pulling three but it is still very easy. In Pandaland however, some people complained about the higher Level zones being too hard.

    What I would prefer is some difficulty Choice even while Questing, for Example you pick hard Mode and all Mobs activate Special Abilities and increase their damage done to you but also drop a bit better Loot and chance to drop 1 Justice Point or 1 Valor Point.


    Raids I don't mind now with FlexRaid so people can have up to 6 Difficultioes: Buffed LFR after failing, Raidfinder, FlexRaid, Normal, Heroic, and Elite choice for something like Council of Elders. Really, Heroic Council of Elders Elite Mode are propably harder than any Difficulty you wish for by making the Game "harder"
    I think hardmode servers would have been a good idea though something that would probably not be worth the development time and now with the virtual realms coming probably something that just wouldn't work. Then again hardmode servers could just be viewed as pvp servers with that risk that you're gonna get ganked.

  12. #372
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    -What I would change-
    1a) Remove stats from items in LFR difficulty (Only cosmetics with other words)
    2a) Make normal and heroic dungeons harder.
    3a) Make heroic dungeon gear viable for first tier raids.

    -Why I would change it-
    1b) This should be done to increase the time you spend in normal and heroic dungeons.
    2b) Force people to CC mobs and utilize their classes. Heroic dungeon bosses should also have steep enrage timers so that each member of the party have to perform at a certain level otherwise the boss enrages and wipes the group. No pewpew performance= No shinnies!
    3b) Gearing should be gradual and not instant, you need to spend a lot of time repeating the same content in order to fully understand the mechanics of both the current content, future content and your class. At the moment you go from dinging 90 to having patch appropriate raid gear in one go, this should not be possible.

    This is what I would do.
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  13. #373
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    Remove normal modes, rename heroic mode to normal mode. LFR stays as it is but will require completion of Proving Grounds in Gold difficulty. Back to the roots in BC.

  14. #374
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    Heh, well I don't know if what I'm about to suggest will make it harder, but it's certainly something that won't make things easier.

    Mobs should hit for more. Make things a little bit more "realistic" with of course, some level(and item-level-content)-scaling involved. Like, mobs in jade forest at lvl 85 with swords hits rather hard at 85 at you. when you're 90, you take decreased dmg since he's not your level. At 90 and facing a mob lvl 90 with a sword, you will take the same dmg(in %), but sliiiightly more. Helps things keep them relative with a difficulty scaling. But, if I were to move to a place with different itemlevel(say, Isle of Thunder), then it a mob there would do sliiiightly more dmg with a sword.(Perhaps not the bestest explanation, but I hope you guys catch my drift.)

    Attunements should be implied to raids. Right, so these days it's easy just to join some guild and go raiding with them(in my opinion it is, at least.) But when people enter, they got no clue what raiding means. So why not make every(or at least many of the ongoing current) raids have attunements quests where you do things relative to the raid dungeon you wish to enter? Like, if I were to re-implement Onyxia's attunement(not saying Onyxia's attunement was bad, I really loved it, but using her as an example) - have me face some sort of keywarden of some sort, or a serie of mobs through a quest-chain that will be focusing their aggro on an NP(for example) and you will need to watch out for the tail of the mob, adds, deep breath, etc etc. This might be making the actual raid too easy cause people could just do whatever they could trial and fail on in their attunement-quest on the actual raid-fight, but that's when you could throw in some elements that isn't in the raid-encounter. For example rain of fire(still talking about onyxia fight as an EXAMPLE), perhaps lava cracks on the floor you can't stand on, or perhaps all together reduce the spells, like on the attunement quest you face only the risk of getting hit by the tail and adds, but no deep breath or knockback. (You see where I am going with this.)

    Removing LFR. This won't only preserve the Raid-feeling that most of us long from the glory of BC, WotLK and early cata, but it will prevent noobs in epix. "The common player wants to get an insight of the Endgame and therefore being able to raid on a daily basis." Certainly joining 24 others that rage, complain, /dramalama all the time is just what the casual player wants. And on top of that - everything is EASY! Now, this point here is purely made out of hate for LFR, but raiding should be for those that can actually work together with others. Not those who wish to be AFK for 3 bosses in a row, or think they're awesome for killing bosses that 15+ people could easily manage themselves.

    The loot; Bring the loot back to how it was in Vanilla... Or BC for that matter. When epic was epic. I remember running around in Western Plaguelands fighting skeletons in Vanilla as a rogue, having to use health-potions only to get down one skeleton because my gear was filled with greens and perhaps 1 blue(if I recall correctly, I got a blue BoE drop and was radiating with happiness for 2 weeks) Those who was commited to the raiding got epics, those who were commited to PvP got their epics, even mounts! However, those who was half-arsed barely got anything. They would end up in blues if they were lucky. And in my opinion; "Rare" is something that blizzard has misunderstood the meaning of. These days one can more or less be fully blue when hitting max level. Sure, after a couple of quests you deserve a reward over the average, but does it HAVE to be blue? Make it just a bit more superior green(I know that's what blues are, but doh) - 1-5 itemlevels higher than what you'd otherwise receive and you wouldn't be boosted so much. JP/VP should be given as normal, but not the same amount. Making players work a little bit more for their gear makes them groom their characters just a bit more. New patch and tier coming out? Well, make BLUES that's weaker than the epixes that will drop, but perhaps keep them slightly over the previous raidtier's epix? (Give this one a little thought.)

    Bring back the old AV. Yes, we all love it. How you could spend hours and hours in a bloodlusted fight in the snowy environment, wanting to get into the hordebase/alliance base. Now, I'm not saying they should remove the new AV, but they should add the old one as an option. There are enough people to fill either up rather quick in my opinion. And if there's too few running either, or everyone starts running old AV and nobody does the new BGs anymore - then make a new network of battlegroups. Perhaps only 1-2 battlegroup(s) for the old AV and keep 2-4 battlegroups connected for the rest.

    More elites in the world. Oh, how I remember having a friend over and we would scream together as we tried to down elites in Tyr's hand. Our gear was weak and in 75% blue(cause we ran DUNGEONS for many weeks) and neither of us had any healing spells(we had to bandage ourselves when the elite focused on the other one) and cheering for five minutes after each elite, hoping it to drop something interesting. We managed, because we had SKILLS(will return to that later) The only Elites in game I can think of now is the ones in Isle of Giants(which is more or less a group place), those in northernd Townlong Steppes and some on Isle of Thunder. Oh, and a "hidden" place in Valley of the Four winds. There's no such place like a badass village gone scarlet and have a twisted vision of the world anymore... Bring a place like it or along the lines back and people would have something to grind.

    Resistance gear should be brought back. Perhaps a world-boss, or.. a raid-instance like onyxia, or an optional boss in a raiddungeon. Either should require resistance gear. Not saying you should need to go out of your way to get the gear, having all of your gold spent on one boss that your guild requires you participate in defeating while the previous boss dropped something better than this boss, but there should be ways to obtain these kinds of armor pieces. Perhaps defeating a mini-boss in the raid-instance should drop some.. let's say sigils; and you can hand them in to a guy somewhere that will give you a piece of resistance gear of your choice? Let's say he drops 5-10 sigils. chest, legs and head costs 2 sigils and, gloves, boots and shoulders costs 1. That wouldn't allow the raid to gear entirely up on a few runs, but they would gradually be stronger.

    The requirement of skills... Back in the day, a friend of mine who did PvP really owned. No, it wasn't because of his gear, but it was because of his skills. He had rather poor gear, but because he was a such skilled player, he acquired gear in just a matter of 3-5 weeks(See how it says WEEKS and not DAYS?(as in MoP)). Looking at youtube videos from vanilla, there are several players that own and even got famous just because of their skills. These days, it's still about skills, yes, but it's most about gear. You don't go around hearing "Oh, watch out for that guy, I heard he took down 4 guys alone at the same time.", but you hear "Watch out, he got full season elite pvp. He'll mess you up!" (Well, certainly you need some skills to get the BEST pvp-gear since you require arena-rating, but I'm talking about the kind of gear you can acquire from conquest points without rating.) Another note about skills on the PvE section; they should remove so many things that have become shared. For example; let mages have the only polymorph.. Shamans shouldn't have hex!?(don't shoot me, it's just my opinion. Save the whole hex-thing for an upcoming class that uses the Loa). Why should every class have something to dispel with? Each class should have their strengths and weaknesses, not be all-rounder all of them. And they should bring back lots of their abilities. Certainly, not every single ability was GREAT!; but it took skills to know when to use them all as they had a certain use all of them(perhaps not Hunter's Raptor strike.. :P but you get my point!)

    Gold! - Players have too much gold these days. In my opinion. It's not as hard getting gold these days as it was back in the days. I remember in Vanilla when I managed to get over 200g, I was happy and would tell all my friends, which would be gasping. While this might just be me being bad at saving or gathering money, you would actually have to do trading, gathering, farming and such to get what you wanted. It's not like you could do a couple of quests to get whatever you wanted.



    Phew, if you made it this far... Well done! I'm sure there are plenty of other things that you'd like me add or remove, but these are the main things I believe would make WoW not only harder, but better!


    PS: I don't think the xp should be nerfed. I think the quests should be harder. Spending hours in the same zone might not be as fun as one intend to, but managing to overcome a couple of great obstacles in a zone and then carrying on to the next one to continue one's growth is what makes me interested at least.
    Love without pain isn't really romance.

  15. #375
    Make everything a pain in the ass to get.

  16. #376
    What the game needs to do again is raise the bar of how good you have to be. Basically a 'you need to be this good to play the game' standard. That means at least having to think enough while leveling to have on appropriate buffs and not over pull mobs, and even have to be more strategic with which mobs you pull. Having nothing with the difficulty of current 5 mans and LFR. Nothing should be that faceroll. You can't have an easy mode and a hard mode in the same game and expect it to work.

  17. #377
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jevlin View Post
    -What I would change-
    1a) Remove stats from items in LFR difficulty (Only cosmetics with other words)
    2a) Make normal and heroic dungeons harder.
    3a) Make heroic dungeon gear viable for first tier raids.

    -Why I would change it-
    1b) This should be done to increase the time you spend in normal and heroic dungeons.
    2b) Force people to CC mobs and utilize their classes. Heroic dungeon bosses should also have steep enrage timers so that each member of the party have to perform at a certain level otherwise the boss enrages and wipes the group. No pewpew performance= No shinnies!
    3b) Gearing should be gradual and not instant, you need to spend a lot of time repeating the same content in order to fully understand the mechanics of both the current content, future content and your class. At the moment you go from dinging 90 to having patch appropriate raid gear in one go, this should not be possible.

    This is what I would do.
    Do you want this game to get less than 1M subs?
    If yes, hands off.

  18. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Do you want this game to get less than 1M subs?
    If yes, hands off.
    1M subs would be an impossible dream. 200k, maybe.

    How many people play WoW because it's hard? Pretty much no one. People play it because it's the MMORPG where pretty much anyone regardless of time or skill or inclination can mix it up with pixel dragons and friends.

    There are lots of hard games out there. This isn't one of them. It can be demanding and time-consuming if you choose to play it in certain ways, but that's a niche that players have created on their own.

  19. #379
    Going back to Vanilla/BC ways is a step back, you guys realize that right? The game wasn't actually better back then..

  20. #380
    The Lightbringer Blitzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    Only problem would be that there wouldn't even be 25 people in total on such a realm
    I'm 1, the op is 1. Only 23 left.
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