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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir View Post
    Hah, what? Game is too easy? Like many others have said, have you even tried current heroic raiding? If not, this thread is moot.
    And what others have said, this argument is wrong and pathetic. Don't perpetuate it, thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir
    You're also ridiculously wrong. Back in the "good ol days" as you call it, bosses were horrendously buggy and unkillable and overtuned
    That's partially true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir
    None of the bosses till MAYBE SWP were actually hard. Wrath brought actual difficulty to raiding.
    That, on the other hand, is downright ridiculous.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir
    Also, BC was not harder than MoP or any other expansion. Maybe heroic 5 mans initially, but once you were raid geared, they were a joke. The raids were simplistic and easy as well. Take off rose tinted glasses.
    Even with several nerfs and massively outgearing them, TBC heroics were still harder than the jokes that were WotLK and MoP ones.
    Also, the "rose-tinted" idiotic fallacy needs to die, again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir View Post
    Going back to Vanilla/BC ways is a step back, you guys realize that right? The game wasn't actually better back then..
    Yes it was. Massively.
    The only points that were massively improved were interface and large parts of gameplay. The entire world, MMO side and design philosophy have actually took a huge step backward since ("coincidentally") the Activision merge.

    And don't dare bullshit me with some "nostalgia" pseudo-counter crap.
    Last edited by Akka; 2013-07-04 at 07:44 PM.

  2. #382
    Why not? Because that is all you really have. Explain how the design and side philosophy have taken a back seat? If anything, the questing and raiding is even more immersive now. You can't regain the fresh, new world feeling anymore that Vanilla or whatever expansion you started playing provided. That's gone. The game has gotten more streamlined, yes, but in the best ways. I feel much more involved in the world with phasing and constant in-game cinematics than I ever did while leveling in BC or Vanilla. And sure, TBC heroics were challenging when you were starting out and maybe even a bit after but that also led to certain classes/specs being useless while others were amazing. You needed 2-3 classes with CC. Mages were god-like and any under-geared group almost required one. Heroics aren't supposed to be challenging. They're supposed to be a step up from leveling and normal dungeons, providing enough loot so you can get into raiding.

    Name one boss in BC or Vanilla that comes close to comparing with Wrath/Cata/MoP hard mode bosses. Name just one. I'll be right here, waiting.

    And don't you dare bullshit me with some "Activision conspiracy" pseudo-counter crap.

  3. #383
    Who used CCs in late TBC heroics. with 106% dodge bear tanks and raid geared pally tanks you just aoe'd everything down. they were the same joke they are now, it just took longer to get to that point.

  4. #384
    That's what I've been trying to say. Cata heroics were as hard as TBC heroics when you were starting out. I remember having to two heal one of the Cata heroics when we were all in blues/greens. You just got geared faster and outscaled them.

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir View Post
    Heroics aren't supposed to be challenging. They're supposed to be a step up from leveling and normal dungeons, providing enough loot so you can get into raiding.
    Then why call them Heroics? Originally they were introduced during TBC to offer a challenge for those bored with normal dungeons. By offering epic rewards when you killed the last boss gave enough incentive to all players to want to do them.

    One of the major problems with the way things work right now is that the loot to effort ratio is skewed in favor of lesser skilled players. I don't mind catch up loot, but there's some loot that should be prestige. LFR for example drops identical loot as normal and heroic, but with lesser ilevel gear. Slightly recolored loot with lesser stats doesn't feel any lesser. Blizzard should look into removing Tier loot all together from LFR. The legendary quest line for example should only be able to be done through flex raiding or higher, not LFR.
    Name one boss in BC or Vanilla that comes close to comparing with Wrath/Cata/MoP hard mode bosses. Name just one. I'll be right here, waiting.
    Razorgore the Untamed would break up guilds if he was tuned for level 90, especially since he's the first boss and you can't do anything else until he's dead. Vaelastrasz the Corrupt would rage quit players since a good amount of them are going to die regardless of what they do to prevent it.

    That's just vanilla, which doesn't even include certain bosses that required you to collect certain fire resist gear.

  6. #386
    The two bosses you named simply werent "Hard" in the sense of complicated as many are now. they were simply dps checks and wouldnt work without serious mechanic restructuring outside of a 40 man context. Imagine Vael with 10 people. Oh look the enrage timer is now 1.5 min instead of 8 min. But the actual mechanics of both of those fights just arent hard. If tuned for 90 as you suggest, id say those two fights would be even easier than Jin'Rohk

  7. #387
    Herald of the Titans RicardoZ's Avatar
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    I still like the idea homeboy back on the first or second page had about removing all the addons.

    I can understand all the cosmetic only ones for bars or raidframes and bags and stuff, like if you want your UI to be different, but stuff like Deadly Boss Mods...come on that's practically cheat mode.

    I don't understand why guilds feel this great sense of accomplishment after downing a boss they've already sat and watched videos on for months before the patch even came out and then have DBM to hold their hand through the entire fight and tell them what to do, along with their rotation addons that tell them what to cast when.

    Come on, you have to admit that's pretty cheap.

  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoZ View Post
    I still like the idea homeboy back on the first or second page had about removing all the addons.

    I can understand all the cosmetic only ones for bars or raidframes and bags and stuff, like if you want your UI to be different, but stuff like Deadly Boss Mods...come on that's practically cheat mode.

    I don't understand why guilds feel this great sense of accomplishment after downing a boss they've already sat and watched videos on for months before the patch even came out and then have DBM to hold their hand through the entire fight and tell them what to do, along with their rotation addons that tell them what to cast when.

    Come on, you have to admit that's pretty cheap.
    Because even with all that help, it's still a lot of work. Try it some time.

  9. #389
    The Patient Paladinne1's Avatar
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    I'd start by removing LFR, so that idiots can't access epics.
    [sic]

  10. #390
    I only think it's sad that to have some challenge we have to go to a raid instance, there is no challenge in the world while leveling, I think they should put elite mobs and group quests back in the game, I had fun trying to solo those.

  11. #391
    Herald of the Titans RicardoZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Because even with all that help, it's still a lot of work. Try it some time.
    I raided all of Wrath and Cataclysm with a stock UI as a Sub Rogue. That was a lot of work.

    DBM, rotation addons that practically play the game for you...that's cheating as far as I'm concerned.

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir View Post
    Heroics aren't supposed to be challenging.
    Not only are you generally historically wrong, but unless you're on the design team, you're not qualified to make this statement. You don't get to define them.

    And to back that statement up, I'll say that MoP is probably the only expansion where most heroics across the board weren't challenging at all if the party was appropriately geared. (and by appropriate, I certainly don't mean raid-outfitted).

    BC - needs no explanation
    Wrath - most people love pointing out how 'faceroll' heroics were, but that's because they tend to only remember overgearing them. Halls of Stone (Brann) and Halls of Lightning (Loken) produced plenty of wipes. HoR caused a ton of of wipes, and sent folks screeching to the forums demanding a nerf. Oculus needed multiple nerfs and an extra loot bag just to convince people to get through it (and even then, caused plenty of wipes). Trash in ToK caused plenty of wipes.
    Cata - again, no explanation needed.

    Finally, logic would imply that they actually should be challenging... otherwise normal modes serve no actual purpose.
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  13. #393
    They've addressed multiple times that they're working on the issues of normal dungeons not serving a purpose. But please, tell me where I've been historically wrong. Still waiting.

  14. #394
    Legendary! anaxie's Avatar
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    the easiest way to make wow hard? Disable addons entirely. Cosmetic UI changes are one of the greatest things in the game to expand awareness and gameplay options that isn't possible with a default UI. Not talking about Bossmods those are very minor in the overall UI. Buff tracking , abilties bars, and omnicc are far more important.

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoZ View Post
    I still like the idea homeboy back on the first or second page had about removing all the addons.

    I can understand all the cosmetic only ones for bars or raidframes and bags and stuff, like if you want your UI to be different, but stuff like Deadly Boss Mods...come on that's practically cheat mode.

    I don't understand why guilds feel this great sense of accomplishment after downing a boss they've already sat and watched videos on for months before the patch even came out and then have DBM to hold their hand through the entire fight and tell them what to do, along with their rotation addons that tell them what to cast when.

    Come on, you have to admit that's pretty cheap.
    in the beginning, yes. nowadays the encounters are tuned with boss mods in mind. so the amount of reaction time you are given is different than if boss mods didn't exist.


    If you want to talk to me about wow theorycrafting or anything really: Eranthe#1639

  16. #396
    Weird, I expected everyone in this thread to have All current Heroic kills and max Brawlers guild ranks with multiple PVP glad titles

  17. #397
    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir View Post
    Why not? Because that is all you really have.
    Actually, it's the opposite : the "nostalgia" is simply a pathetic cop-out allowing to selectively ignore (not counter) anything that the person says. It's the level zero of reasoning, and the level infinity of bad faith.
    It doesn't prove anything : "you're just nostalgic" brings no fact, no reasoning, nothing. It's just the most successful blowing of hot air ever imagined - basically it's attempting a "shut up whatever you say is wrong I can't hear you lalala" while dodging the obvious ab hominen.
    Explain how the design and side philosophy have taken a back seat? If anything, the questing and raiding is even more immersive now.
    Questing has become better and more varied in some ways, true - mainly storytelling.
    Though the horrid easiness and speed of it all actually kills the immersion - can't really feel like a hero on his journey to greatness when I can faceroll through the entire content on autopilot, can't feel like lost in a huge world when there is gryphon's waypoint every fifteen paces, can't really feel like I'm infiltrating the Big Evil Fortress when we tear through it while ignoring any kind of tactics and just facerolling elites.

    For the rest, the design philosophy went from "delayed but deeper gratification" to "instant and shallow gratification". The entire progression, community-based and multiplayer aspects of the game have been completely gutted. Don't tell me it's an improvement for a MMO.
    You can't regain the fresh, new world feeling anymore that Vanilla or whatever expansion you started playing provided. That's gone.
    Again an attempt at the "nostalgia"-based retarded crap. How could TBC be considered great if it was all about the "first time" feeling ? We had been playing for years already when it was released.
    The game has gotten more streamlined, yes, but in the best ways. I feel much more involved in the world with phasing and constant in-game cinematics than I ever did while leveling in BC or Vanilla.
    I feel more involved when a game actually requires me to play instead of letting me slaughter my way by spamming one button without risk. There is no immersion nor in-universe consistency when the "formidable challenges" can be brute-forced without thought nor effort.
    If it's to see cinematics without any kind of gameplay, go watch a movie, and leave us PLAY a GAME.
    And sure, TBC heroics were challenging when you were starting out and maybe even a bit after but that also led to certain classes/specs being useless while others were amazing. You needed 2-3 classes with CC. Mages were god-like and any under-geared group almost required one. Heroics aren't supposed to be challenging. They're supposed to be a step up from leveling and normal dungeons, providing enough loot so you can get into raiding.
    Big pile of shit.
    First, the TBC heroics WERE actually MEANT to be hard. The entire reason they existed was to provide a small group alternative to raiding. Saying they were not supposed to be hard prove how your argument is either idiotic or full of bad faith - their very NAME imply that they were built to be hard, even if the dev didn't openly explained it so.
    Name one boss in BC or Vanilla that comes close to comparing with Wrath/Cata/MoP hard mode bosses. Name just one. I'll be right here, waiting.
    Come on, we all know whatever boss I'll pick, you'll simply dismiss the fight as "not really hard, just a matter of [fill with a caricatural simplification of the fight]", and then go to only consider the hardest bosses in Wrath to compare them to the easiest from before.
    KT, Vashj, Four Horsemen, C'thun were certainly much harder than half of WotLK hard modes. Yeah, Arthas himself and Yogg0 were even harder. Doesn't mean all the fights until them were easy.

    Additionnally, the main problem with easiness in WoW is, again (for what, the 574867613th time ?), not the heroic raids - those are plenty hard. The problem is the total, complete lack of anything not even remotely challenging until the normal raid. 99,9 % of the game has basically no point, no interest and requires no involvement, until you reach the last raid tier. That's both extremely boring, and a complete waste.
    Having a handful of hair-pullingly hard fights (that will get trivialized on a pre-determined schedule, killing half of the motivation to do them anyway) doesn't make the REST OF THE GAME interesting.
    And don't you dare bullshit me with some "Activision conspiracy" pseudo-counter crap.
    What "conspiracy" ? WoW went from "involvement and progression-based gameplay" to "casualfest" exactly at the same moment it merged with Activision, of which boss is famous for saying he wanted to remove the fun in making game in order to teach game-maker only to make money.
    It's not that you need to be conspiracy theorist to see a link, it's that you need to be completely blind and retarded NOT to see it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Strangewayes View Post
    Weird, I expected everyone in this thread to have All current Heroic kills and max Brawlers guild ranks with multiple PVP glad titles
    Idiotic "argument" that has been debunked about ten times in every thread since 2009. How clever to repeat it again like a mindless parrot.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Wrath - most people love pointing out how 'faceroll' heroics were, but that's because they tend to only remember overgearing them. Halls of Stone (Brann) and Halls of Lightning (Loken) produced plenty of wipes. HoR caused a ton of of wipes, and sent folks screeching to the forums demanding a nerf. Oculus needed multiple nerfs and an extra loot bag just to convince people to get through it (and even then, caused plenty of wipes). Trash in ToK caused plenty of wipes.
    Sorry, though I agree on your overall point, here you fall squarely in the same error than the "nostalgia googles", misremembering facts and/or twisting there so they can fall neatly in the pre-determined places you want them to be.
    WotLK heroics WERE facerolls. They were facerolled right from the start, with people in quest green quests. We did wonder if we were not in normal instances more than once, and I went back into some TBC hero to check, and found that mob in heroic Auchenai Crypts actually hit nearly as hard on a lvl 80 char than mob in Heroic Pinnacle, despite being both 10 lvl lower, AND having the reduced damage of hitting a 10 lvl higher-than-themselves char.
    Last edited by Akka; 2013-07-05 at 10:30 AM.

  18. #398
    You got some points Akka, but please remember that this game is 9 years old. no matter what blizzard does, it's not gonna feel immersive anymore. it's simply too old for that. people have seen it all by now, the game concept is always the same, it's not gonna change.

    also no matter what we demand here, be it true or not, blizzard isn't going to change the game anymore. lfr is not going to be removed, questing won't get challenging, flying mounts won't be removed. It's just not gonna happen.

  19. #399
    Herald of the Titans Seriss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paladinne1 View Post
    I'd start by removing LFR, so that idiots can't access epics.
    What problem do you have with people getting epics that are 40 ilvls lower than what you're wearing? *can't see a problem*

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by Jainzar View Post
    You got some points Akka, but please remember that this game is 9 years old. no matter what blizzard does, it's not gonna feel immersive anymore. it's simply too old for that. people have seen it all by now, the game concept is always the same, it's not gonna change.

    also no matter what we demand here, be it true or not, blizzard isn't going to change the game anymore. lfr is not going to be removed, questing won't get challenging, flying mounts won't be removed. It's just not gonna happen.
    I don't think that there is a need for something original. Role-playing games, and videogames of any genre in general, rarely are. They merely evolve, a bit at a time, as new iterations come along. And World of WarCraft has the upper hand in this matter as well, because it is not an old game. A continuously renewed game cannot get old. Mist of Pandaria was not released in 2004. It's a 2012 release. And it should play like one.

    The problem with the game is that it is supposed to be an open-world role-playing game, and it was for some time in vanilla, but hasn't been anything like that ever since Crusade. Yet, the vast majority of its players flocked to it to play precisely an open-world role-playing game. Like Elder Scrolls or Zelda, only online. They got their wish fulfilled partly in vanilla. Then the developers attempted to substitute actual open-world role-playing content with rewards. To be able to maintain the game easier, faster, and at a dramatically reduced cost. Not because they didn't have the money or the good-will of the players to properly maintain it, this may be a problem for Trion or Turbine and their mediocre-selling games, but not Blizzard who are bathing in cash with their extreme financial success; but because the company preferred to keep most of the money for themselves. And just throw rewards at the players, and gameplay shenanigans to extend the longevity of the game. So in come welfare PvP epics in Crusade, then welfare PvE epics and achievements in Wrath, and then LfR in Cataclysm. And all the while they tried, time and again, to shoehorn EVERYONE into instanced content, because it is easier to develop, and of course cheaper.

    Only in Mists did they actually try to give somewhat more content to the players. And while their attempt was better than no attempt, it still falls short to what they should have actually done, way too short.

    Vanilla, was the best the game has been in terms of an actual open-world role-playing game. With eight playable races, eight classes, each with three specialisations and the freedom to create hybrid builds, six main campaigns, lots of side-questing content (entire zones even), class quests, and some odd 30+ zones to explore and adventure in; it hasn't been matched by anything that followed in WoW or any other mmorpg since. Which is the main reason most WoW-clones failed so terribly, and why WoW is failing so badly right now (not as much in subscription numbers but overall enjoyment): there is too little content, and even less of the right kind. Six main campaigns became two, 30+ zones became eight, and so on. And then people wonder why the game feels so empty and boring?! Really? This needs an explanation? The few hundred-thousand instanced PvE or/and PvP enthusiasts may enjoy the game as it is right now. But the millions of players that expected a solid open-world role-playing game are left hanging with leftovers.

    When I bought WoW in 2005 I was under the impression I would be playing a role-playing game set, mostly, in an open-world. Not kill bosses in dungeons, group or raid ones, repeatedly. I signed up to play a massive role-playing game. And for a time I did. Then Crusade came and I was, to be honest about how I feel, tricked. The game shoved epics doon my throat and I was blinded, then in Wrath it shoved even more and catered to my completionist-syndrom with achievements, it did try to be more interesting through challenge initially in Cataclsym but backed off fast due to whining from other players and instead gave me LfR to make me feel included in the "magic" that is raiding. And in Mists it tried to get me out in the world through... dailies. It did anything but give me the amount and kind of content I got back in the time that I loved this stupid game. The feeling of excitement to open the map, and take a look at all those tenths of zones awaiting me filled with mystery and adventure.

    Perhaps they should try doing that for a change over at Blizzard, and see how that goes. But then again, how to ask for more money and time from the powers-that-be and their profit-obsessed leadership...
    Last edited by Drithien; 2013-07-05 at 10:48 AM.

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