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  1. #361
    To me it's gameplay skill too. There's just nothing hard about taking forever to actually get to the content. That doesn't make the content hard at all.

    Off topic I saw that the proving grounds mentioned have a certain dps so does that mean blizz is putting a dps meter into the game?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fincher View Post
    Overall I'd like to see more difficulty choices not just harder Content. For Example, some people complained that Cataclysm levelling content was too easy, and I feel for very skilled players who are underchallenged by something like Uldum where your Questing consists of lone Pygmys and Scorpions. The best density you can find is pulling three but it is still very easy. In Pandaland however, some people complained about the higher Level zones being too hard.

    What I would prefer is some difficulty Choice even while Questing, for Example you pick hard Mode and all Mobs activate Special Abilities and increase their damage done to you but also drop a bit better Loot and chance to drop 1 Justice Point or 1 Valor Point.


    Raids I don't mind now with FlexRaid so people can have up to 6 Difficultioes: Buffed LFR after failing, Raidfinder, FlexRaid, Normal, Heroic, and Elite choice for something like Council of Elders. Really, Heroic Council of Elders Elite Mode are propably harder than any Difficulty you wish for by making the Game "harder"
    I think hardmode servers would have been a good idea though something that would probably not be worth the development time and now with the virtual realms coming probably something that just wouldn't work. Then again hardmode servers could just be viewed as pvp servers with that risk that you're gonna get ganked.

  2. #362
    Deleted
    -What I would change-
    1a) Remove stats from items in LFR difficulty (Only cosmetics with other words)
    2a) Make normal and heroic dungeons harder.
    3a) Make heroic dungeon gear viable for first tier raids.

    -Why I would change it-
    1b) This should be done to increase the time you spend in normal and heroic dungeons.
    2b) Force people to CC mobs and utilize their classes. Heroic dungeon bosses should also have steep enrage timers so that each member of the party have to perform at a certain level otherwise the boss enrages and wipes the group. No pewpew performance= No shinnies!
    3b) Gearing should be gradual and not instant, you need to spend a lot of time repeating the same content in order to fully understand the mechanics of both the current content, future content and your class. At the moment you go from dinging 90 to having patch appropriate raid gear in one go, this should not be possible.

    This is what I would do.

  3. #363
    Deleted
    Remove normal modes, rename heroic mode to normal mode. LFR stays as it is but will require completion of Proving Grounds in Gold difficulty. Back to the roots in BC.

  4. #364
    Mechagnome Seiken3's Avatar
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    Heh, well I don't know if what I'm about to suggest will make it harder, but it's certainly something that won't make things easier.

    Mobs should hit for more. Make things a little bit more "realistic" with of course, some level(and item-level-content)-scaling involved. Like, mobs in jade forest at lvl 85 with swords hits rather hard at 85 at you. when you're 90, you take decreased dmg since he's not your level. At 90 and facing a mob lvl 90 with a sword, you will take the same dmg(in %), but sliiiightly more. Helps things keep them relative with a difficulty scaling. But, if I were to move to a place with different itemlevel(say, Isle of Thunder), then it a mob there would do sliiiightly more dmg with a sword.(Perhaps not the bestest explanation, but I hope you guys catch my drift.)

    Attunements should be implied to raids. Right, so these days it's easy just to join some guild and go raiding with them(in my opinion it is, at least.) But when people enter, they got no clue what raiding means. So why not make every(or at least many of the ongoing current) raids have attunements quests where you do things relative to the raid dungeon you wish to enter? Like, if I were to re-implement Onyxia's attunement(not saying Onyxia's attunement was bad, I really loved it, but using her as an example) - have me face some sort of keywarden of some sort, or a serie of mobs through a quest-chain that will be focusing their aggro on an NP(for example) and you will need to watch out for the tail of the mob, adds, deep breath, etc etc. This might be making the actual raid too easy cause people could just do whatever they could trial and fail on in their attunement-quest on the actual raid-fight, but that's when you could throw in some elements that isn't in the raid-encounter. For example rain of fire(still talking about onyxia fight as an EXAMPLE), perhaps lava cracks on the floor you can't stand on, or perhaps all together reduce the spells, like on the attunement quest you face only the risk of getting hit by the tail and adds, but no deep breath or knockback. (You see where I am going with this.)

    Removing LFR. This won't only preserve the Raid-feeling that most of us long from the glory of BC, WotLK and early cata, but it will prevent noobs in epix. "The common player wants to get an insight of the Endgame and therefore being able to raid on a daily basis." Certainly joining 24 others that rage, complain, /dramalama all the time is just what the casual player wants. And on top of that - everything is EASY! Now, this point here is purely made out of hate for LFR, but raiding should be for those that can actually work together with others. Not those who wish to be AFK for 3 bosses in a row, or think they're awesome for killing bosses that 15+ people could easily manage themselves.

    The loot; Bring the loot back to how it was in Vanilla... Or BC for that matter. When epic was epic. I remember running around in Western Plaguelands fighting skeletons in Vanilla as a rogue, having to use health-potions only to get down one skeleton because my gear was filled with greens and perhaps 1 blue(if I recall correctly, I got a blue BoE drop and was radiating with happiness for 2 weeks) Those who was commited to the raiding got epics, those who were commited to PvP got their epics, even mounts! However, those who was half-arsed barely got anything. They would end up in blues if they were lucky. And in my opinion; "Rare" is something that blizzard has misunderstood the meaning of. These days one can more or less be fully blue when hitting max level. Sure, after a couple of quests you deserve a reward over the average, but does it HAVE to be blue? Make it just a bit more superior green(I know that's what blues are, but doh) - 1-5 itemlevels higher than what you'd otherwise receive and you wouldn't be boosted so much. JP/VP should be given as normal, but not the same amount. Making players work a little bit more for their gear makes them groom their characters just a bit more. New patch and tier coming out? Well, make BLUES that's weaker than the epixes that will drop, but perhaps keep them slightly over the previous raidtier's epix? (Give this one a little thought.)

    Bring back the old AV. Yes, we all love it. How you could spend hours and hours in a bloodlusted fight in the snowy environment, wanting to get into the hordebase/alliance base. Now, I'm not saying they should remove the new AV, but they should add the old one as an option. There are enough people to fill either up rather quick in my opinion. And if there's too few running either, or everyone starts running old AV and nobody does the new BGs anymore - then make a new network of battlegroups. Perhaps only 1-2 battlegroup(s) for the old AV and keep 2-4 battlegroups connected for the rest.

    More elites in the world. Oh, how I remember having a friend over and we would scream together as we tried to down elites in Tyr's hand. Our gear was weak and in 75% blue(cause we ran DUNGEONS for many weeks) and neither of us had any healing spells(we had to bandage ourselves when the elite focused on the other one) and cheering for five minutes after each elite, hoping it to drop something interesting. We managed, because we had SKILLS(will return to that later) The only Elites in game I can think of now is the ones in Isle of Giants(which is more or less a group place), those in northernd Townlong Steppes and some on Isle of Thunder. Oh, and a "hidden" place in Valley of the Four winds. There's no such place like a badass village gone scarlet and have a twisted vision of the world anymore... Bring a place like it or along the lines back and people would have something to grind.

    Resistance gear should be brought back. Perhaps a world-boss, or.. a raid-instance like onyxia, or an optional boss in a raiddungeon. Either should require resistance gear. Not saying you should need to go out of your way to get the gear, having all of your gold spent on one boss that your guild requires you participate in defeating while the previous boss dropped something better than this boss, but there should be ways to obtain these kinds of armor pieces. Perhaps defeating a mini-boss in the raid-instance should drop some.. let's say sigils; and you can hand them in to a guy somewhere that will give you a piece of resistance gear of your choice? Let's say he drops 5-10 sigils. chest, legs and head costs 2 sigils and, gloves, boots and shoulders costs 1. That wouldn't allow the raid to gear entirely up on a few runs, but they would gradually be stronger.

    The requirement of skills... Back in the day, a friend of mine who did PvP really owned. No, it wasn't because of his gear, but it was because of his skills. He had rather poor gear, but because he was a such skilled player, he acquired gear in just a matter of 3-5 weeks(See how it says WEEKS and not DAYS?(as in MoP)). Looking at youtube videos from vanilla, there are several players that own and even got famous just because of their skills. These days, it's still about skills, yes, but it's most about gear. You don't go around hearing "Oh, watch out for that guy, I heard he took down 4 guys alone at the same time.", but you hear "Watch out, he got full season elite pvp. He'll mess you up!" (Well, certainly you need some skills to get the BEST pvp-gear since you require arena-rating, but I'm talking about the kind of gear you can acquire from conquest points without rating.) Another note about skills on the PvE section; they should remove so many things that have become shared. For example; let mages have the only polymorph.. Shamans shouldn't have hex!?(don't shoot me, it's just my opinion. Save the whole hex-thing for an upcoming class that uses the Loa). Why should every class have something to dispel with? Each class should have their strengths and weaknesses, not be all-rounder all of them. And they should bring back lots of their abilities. Certainly, not every single ability was GREAT!; but it took skills to know when to use them all as they had a certain use all of them(perhaps not Hunter's Raptor strike.. :P but you get my point!)

    Gold! - Players have too much gold these days. In my opinion. It's not as hard getting gold these days as it was back in the days. I remember in Vanilla when I managed to get over 200g, I was happy and would tell all my friends, which would be gasping. While this might just be me being bad at saving or gathering money, you would actually have to do trading, gathering, farming and such to get what you wanted. It's not like you could do a couple of quests to get whatever you wanted.



    Phew, if you made it this far... Well done! I'm sure there are plenty of other things that you'd like me add or remove, but these are the main things I believe would make WoW not only harder, but better!


    PS: I don't think the xp should be nerfed. I think the quests should be harder. Spending hours in the same zone might not be as fun as one intend to, but managing to overcome a couple of great obstacles in a zone and then carrying on to the next one to continue one's growth is what makes me interested at least.

  5. #365
    Make everything a pain in the ass to get.

  6. #366
    What the game needs to do again is raise the bar of how good you have to be. Basically a 'you need to be this good to play the game' standard. That means at least having to think enough while leveling to have on appropriate buffs and not over pull mobs, and even have to be more strategic with which mobs you pull. Having nothing with the difficulty of current 5 mans and LFR. Nothing should be that faceroll. You can't have an easy mode and a hard mode in the same game and expect it to work.

  7. #367
    I am Murloc! Tomana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jevlin View Post
    -What I would change-
    1a) Remove stats from items in LFR difficulty (Only cosmetics with other words)
    2a) Make normal and heroic dungeons harder.
    3a) Make heroic dungeon gear viable for first tier raids.

    -Why I would change it-
    1b) This should be done to increase the time you spend in normal and heroic dungeons.
    2b) Force people to CC mobs and utilize their classes. Heroic dungeon bosses should also have steep enrage timers so that each member of the party have to perform at a certain level otherwise the boss enrages and wipes the group. No pewpew performance= No shinnies!
    3b) Gearing should be gradual and not instant, you need to spend a lot of time repeating the same content in order to fully understand the mechanics of both the current content, future content and your class. At the moment you go from dinging 90 to having patch appropriate raid gear in one go, this should not be possible.

    This is what I would do.
    Do you want this game to get less than 1M subs?
    If yes, hands off.
    MMO player
    WoW: 2006-2020 || EvE: 2013-2020 || FFXIV: 2020- || Lost Ark: 2022-

  8. #368
    Herald of the Titans
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Do you want this game to get less than 1M subs?
    If yes, hands off.
    1M subs would be an impossible dream. 200k, maybe.

    How many people play WoW because it's hard? Pretty much no one. People play it because it's the MMORPG where pretty much anyone regardless of time or skill or inclination can mix it up with pixel dragons and friends.

    There are lots of hard games out there. This isn't one of them. It can be demanding and time-consuming if you choose to play it in certain ways, but that's a niche that players have created on their own.

  9. #369
    Going back to Vanilla/BC ways is a step back, you guys realize that right? The game wasn't actually better back then..

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir View Post
    Hah, what? Game is too easy? Like many others have said, have you even tried current heroic raiding? If not, this thread is moot.
    And what others have said, this argument is wrong and pathetic. Don't perpetuate it, thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir
    You're also ridiculously wrong. Back in the "good ol days" as you call it, bosses were horrendously buggy and unkillable and overtuned
    That's partially true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir
    None of the bosses till MAYBE SWP were actually hard. Wrath brought actual difficulty to raiding.
    That, on the other hand, is downright ridiculous.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir
    Also, BC was not harder than MoP or any other expansion. Maybe heroic 5 mans initially, but once you were raid geared, they were a joke. The raids were simplistic and easy as well. Take off rose tinted glasses.
    Even with several nerfs and massively outgearing them, TBC heroics were still harder than the jokes that were WotLK and MoP ones.
    Also, the "rose-tinted" idiotic fallacy needs to die, again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir View Post
    Going back to Vanilla/BC ways is a step back, you guys realize that right? The game wasn't actually better back then..
    Yes it was. Massively.
    The only points that were massively improved were interface and large parts of gameplay. The entire world, MMO side and design philosophy have actually took a huge step backward since ("coincidentally") the Activision merge.

    And don't dare bullshit me with some "nostalgia" pseudo-counter crap.
    Last edited by Akka; 2013-07-04 at 07:44 PM.

  11. #371
    Why not? Because that is all you really have. Explain how the design and side philosophy have taken a back seat? If anything, the questing and raiding is even more immersive now. You can't regain the fresh, new world feeling anymore that Vanilla or whatever expansion you started playing provided. That's gone. The game has gotten more streamlined, yes, but in the best ways. I feel much more involved in the world with phasing and constant in-game cinematics than I ever did while leveling in BC or Vanilla. And sure, TBC heroics were challenging when you were starting out and maybe even a bit after but that also led to certain classes/specs being useless while others were amazing. You needed 2-3 classes with CC. Mages were god-like and any under-geared group almost required one. Heroics aren't supposed to be challenging. They're supposed to be a step up from leveling and normal dungeons, providing enough loot so you can get into raiding.

    Name one boss in BC or Vanilla that comes close to comparing with Wrath/Cata/MoP hard mode bosses. Name just one. I'll be right here, waiting.

    And don't you dare bullshit me with some "Activision conspiracy" pseudo-counter crap.

  12. #372
    Who used CCs in late TBC heroics. with 106% dodge bear tanks and raid geared pally tanks you just aoe'd everything down. they were the same joke they are now, it just took longer to get to that point.

  13. #373
    That's what I've been trying to say. Cata heroics were as hard as TBC heroics when you were starting out. I remember having to two heal one of the Cata heroics when we were all in blues/greens. You just got geared faster and outscaled them.

  14. #374
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir View Post
    Heroics aren't supposed to be challenging. They're supposed to be a step up from leveling and normal dungeons, providing enough loot so you can get into raiding.
    Then why call them Heroics? Originally they were introduced during TBC to offer a challenge for those bored with normal dungeons. By offering epic rewards when you killed the last boss gave enough incentive to all players to want to do them.

    One of the major problems with the way things work right now is that the loot to effort ratio is skewed in favor of lesser skilled players. I don't mind catch up loot, but there's some loot that should be prestige. LFR for example drops identical loot as normal and heroic, but with lesser ilevel gear. Slightly recolored loot with lesser stats doesn't feel any lesser. Blizzard should look into removing Tier loot all together from LFR. The legendary quest line for example should only be able to be done through flex raiding or higher, not LFR.
    Name one boss in BC or Vanilla that comes close to comparing with Wrath/Cata/MoP hard mode bosses. Name just one. I'll be right here, waiting.
    Razorgore the Untamed would break up guilds if he was tuned for level 90, especially since he's the first boss and you can't do anything else until he's dead. Vaelastrasz the Corrupt would rage quit players since a good amount of them are going to die regardless of what they do to prevent it.

    That's just vanilla, which doesn't even include certain bosses that required you to collect certain fire resist gear.

  15. #375
    The two bosses you named simply werent "Hard" in the sense of complicated as many are now. they were simply dps checks and wouldnt work without serious mechanic restructuring outside of a 40 man context. Imagine Vael with 10 people. Oh look the enrage timer is now 1.5 min instead of 8 min. But the actual mechanics of both of those fights just arent hard. If tuned for 90 as you suggest, id say those two fights would be even easier than Jin'Rohk

  16. #376
    Herald of the Titans RicardoZ's Avatar
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    I still like the idea homeboy back on the first or second page had about removing all the addons.

    I can understand all the cosmetic only ones for bars or raidframes and bags and stuff, like if you want your UI to be different, but stuff like Deadly Boss Mods...come on that's practically cheat mode.

    I don't understand why guilds feel this great sense of accomplishment after downing a boss they've already sat and watched videos on for months before the patch even came out and then have DBM to hold their hand through the entire fight and tell them what to do, along with their rotation addons that tell them what to cast when.

    Come on, you have to admit that's pretty cheap.

  17. #377
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoZ View Post
    I still like the idea homeboy back on the first or second page had about removing all the addons.

    I can understand all the cosmetic only ones for bars or raidframes and bags and stuff, like if you want your UI to be different, but stuff like Deadly Boss Mods...come on that's practically cheat mode.

    I don't understand why guilds feel this great sense of accomplishment after downing a boss they've already sat and watched videos on for months before the patch even came out and then have DBM to hold their hand through the entire fight and tell them what to do, along with their rotation addons that tell them what to cast when.

    Come on, you have to admit that's pretty cheap.
    Because even with all that help, it's still a lot of work. Try it some time.

  18. #378
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    I'd start by removing LFR, so that idiots can't access epics.

  19. #379
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    I only think it's sad that to have some challenge we have to go to a raid instance, there is no challenge in the world while leveling, I think they should put elite mobs and group quests back in the game, I had fun trying to solo those.

  20. #380
    Herald of the Titans RicardoZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Because even with all that help, it's still a lot of work. Try it some time.
    I raided all of Wrath and Cataclysm with a stock UI as a Sub Rogue. That was a lot of work.

    DBM, rotation addons that practically play the game for you...that's cheating as far as I'm concerned.

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