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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir View Post
    Heroics aren't supposed to be challenging.
    Not only are you generally historically wrong, but unless you're on the design team, you're not qualified to make this statement. You don't get to define them.

    And to back that statement up, I'll say that MoP is probably the only expansion where most heroics across the board weren't challenging at all if the party was appropriately geared. (and by appropriate, I certainly don't mean raid-outfitted).

    BC - needs no explanation
    Wrath - most people love pointing out how 'faceroll' heroics were, but that's because they tend to only remember overgearing them. Halls of Stone (Brann) and Halls of Lightning (Loken) produced plenty of wipes. HoR caused a ton of of wipes, and sent folks screeching to the forums demanding a nerf. Oculus needed multiple nerfs and an extra loot bag just to convince people to get through it (and even then, caused plenty of wipes). Trash in ToK caused plenty of wipes.
    Cata - again, no explanation needed.

    Finally, logic would imply that they actually should be challenging... otherwise normal modes serve no actual purpose.

  2. #382
    They've addressed multiple times that they're working on the issues of normal dungeons not serving a purpose. But please, tell me where I've been historically wrong. Still waiting.

  3. #383
    the easiest way to make wow hard? Disable addons entirely. Cosmetic UI changes are one of the greatest things in the game to expand awareness and gameplay options that isn't possible with a default UI. Not talking about Bossmods those are very minor in the overall UI. Buff tracking , abilties bars, and omnicc are far more important.

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoZ View Post
    I still like the idea homeboy back on the first or second page had about removing all the addons.

    I can understand all the cosmetic only ones for bars or raidframes and bags and stuff, like if you want your UI to be different, but stuff like Deadly Boss Mods...come on that's practically cheat mode.

    I don't understand why guilds feel this great sense of accomplishment after downing a boss they've already sat and watched videos on for months before the patch even came out and then have DBM to hold their hand through the entire fight and tell them what to do, along with their rotation addons that tell them what to cast when.

    Come on, you have to admit that's pretty cheap.
    in the beginning, yes. nowadays the encounters are tuned with boss mods in mind. so the amount of reaction time you are given is different than if boss mods didn't exist.

  5. #385
    Weird, I expected everyone in this thread to have All current Heroic kills and max Brawlers guild ranks with multiple PVP glad titles

  6. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir View Post
    Why not? Because that is all you really have.
    Actually, it's the opposite : the "nostalgia" is simply a pathetic cop-out allowing to selectively ignore (not counter) anything that the person says. It's the level zero of reasoning, and the level infinity of bad faith.
    It doesn't prove anything : "you're just nostalgic" brings no fact, no reasoning, nothing. It's just the most successful blowing of hot air ever imagined - basically it's attempting a "shut up whatever you say is wrong I can't hear you lalala" while dodging the obvious ab hominen.
    Explain how the design and side philosophy have taken a back seat? If anything, the questing and raiding is even more immersive now.
    Questing has become better and more varied in some ways, true - mainly storytelling.
    Though the horrid easiness and speed of it all actually kills the immersion - can't really feel like a hero on his journey to greatness when I can faceroll through the entire content on autopilot, can't feel like lost in a huge world when there is gryphon's waypoint every fifteen paces, can't really feel like I'm infiltrating the Big Evil Fortress when we tear through it while ignoring any kind of tactics and just facerolling elites.

    For the rest, the design philosophy went from "delayed but deeper gratification" to "instant and shallow gratification". The entire progression, community-based and multiplayer aspects of the game have been completely gutted. Don't tell me it's an improvement for a MMO.
    You can't regain the fresh, new world feeling anymore that Vanilla or whatever expansion you started playing provided. That's gone.
    Again an attempt at the "nostalgia"-based retarded crap. How could TBC be considered great if it was all about the "first time" feeling ? We had been playing for years already when it was released.
    The game has gotten more streamlined, yes, but in the best ways. I feel much more involved in the world with phasing and constant in-game cinematics than I ever did while leveling in BC or Vanilla.
    I feel more involved when a game actually requires me to play instead of letting me slaughter my way by spamming one button without risk. There is no immersion nor in-universe consistency when the "formidable challenges" can be brute-forced without thought nor effort.
    If it's to see cinematics without any kind of gameplay, go watch a movie, and leave us PLAY a GAME.
    And sure, TBC heroics were challenging when you were starting out and maybe even a bit after but that also led to certain classes/specs being useless while others were amazing. You needed 2-3 classes with CC. Mages were god-like and any under-geared group almost required one. Heroics aren't supposed to be challenging. They're supposed to be a step up from leveling and normal dungeons, providing enough loot so you can get into raiding.
    Big pile of shit.
    First, the TBC heroics WERE actually MEANT to be hard. The entire reason they existed was to provide a small group alternative to raiding. Saying they were not supposed to be hard prove how your argument is either idiotic or full of bad faith - their very NAME imply that they were built to be hard, even if the dev didn't openly explained it so.
    Name one boss in BC or Vanilla that comes close to comparing with Wrath/Cata/MoP hard mode bosses. Name just one. I'll be right here, waiting.
    Come on, we all know whatever boss I'll pick, you'll simply dismiss the fight as "not really hard, just a matter of [fill with a caricatural simplification of the fight]", and then go to only consider the hardest bosses in Wrath to compare them to the easiest from before.
    KT, Vashj, Four Horsemen, C'thun were certainly much harder than half of WotLK hard modes. Yeah, Arthas himself and Yogg0 were even harder. Doesn't mean all the fights until them were easy.

    Additionnally, the main problem with easiness in WoW is, again (for what, the 574867613th time ?), not the heroic raids - those are plenty hard. The problem is the total, complete lack of anything not even remotely challenging until the normal raid. 99,9 % of the game has basically no point, no interest and requires no involvement, until you reach the last raid tier. That's both extremely boring, and a complete waste.
    Having a handful of hair-pullingly hard fights (that will get trivialized on a pre-determined schedule, killing half of the motivation to do them anyway) doesn't make the REST OF THE GAME interesting.
    And don't you dare bullshit me with some "Activision conspiracy" pseudo-counter crap.
    What "conspiracy" ? WoW went from "involvement and progression-based gameplay" to "casualfest" exactly at the same moment it merged with Activision, of which boss is famous for saying he wanted to remove the fun in making game in order to teach game-maker only to make money.
    It's not that you need to be conspiracy theorist to see a link, it's that you need to be completely blind and retarded NOT to see it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Strangewayes View Post
    Weird, I expected everyone in this thread to have All current Heroic kills and max Brawlers guild ranks with multiple PVP glad titles
    Idiotic "argument" that has been debunked about ten times in every thread since 2009. How clever to repeat it again like a mindless parrot.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Wrath - most people love pointing out how 'faceroll' heroics were, but that's because they tend to only remember overgearing them. Halls of Stone (Brann) and Halls of Lightning (Loken) produced plenty of wipes. HoR caused a ton of of wipes, and sent folks screeching to the forums demanding a nerf. Oculus needed multiple nerfs and an extra loot bag just to convince people to get through it (and even then, caused plenty of wipes). Trash in ToK caused plenty of wipes.
    Sorry, though I agree on your overall point, here you fall squarely in the same error than the "nostalgia googles", misremembering facts and/or twisting there so they can fall neatly in the pre-determined places you want them to be.
    WotLK heroics WERE facerolls. They were facerolled right from the start, with people in quest green quests. We did wonder if we were not in normal instances more than once, and I went back into some TBC hero to check, and found that mob in heroic Auchenai Crypts actually hit nearly as hard on a lvl 80 char than mob in Heroic Pinnacle, despite being both 10 lvl lower, AND having the reduced damage of hitting a 10 lvl higher-than-themselves char.
    Last edited by Akka; 2013-07-05 at 10:30 AM.

  7. #387
    You got some points Akka, but please remember that this game is 9 years old. no matter what blizzard does, it's not gonna feel immersive anymore. it's simply too old for that. people have seen it all by now, the game concept is always the same, it's not gonna change.

    also no matter what we demand here, be it true or not, blizzard isn't going to change the game anymore. lfr is not going to be removed, questing won't get challenging, flying mounts won't be removed. It's just not gonna happen.

  8. #388
    The Lightbringer Seriss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paladinne1 View Post
    I'd start by removing LFR, so that idiots can't access epics.
    What problem do you have with people getting epics that are 40 ilvls lower than what you're wearing? *can't see a problem*

  9. #389
    Quote Originally Posted by Jainzar View Post
    You got some points Akka, but please remember that this game is 9 years old. no matter what blizzard does, it's not gonna feel immersive anymore. it's simply too old for that. people have seen it all by now, the game concept is always the same, it's not gonna change.

    also no matter what we demand here, be it true or not, blizzard isn't going to change the game anymore. lfr is not going to be removed, questing won't get challenging, flying mounts won't be removed. It's just not gonna happen.
    I don't think that there is a need for something original. Role-playing games, and videogames of any genre in general, rarely are. They merely evolve, a bit at a time, as new iterations come along. And World of WarCraft has the upper hand in this matter as well, because it is not an old game. A continuously renewed game cannot get old. Mist of Pandaria was not released in 2004. It's a 2012 release. And it should play like one.

    The problem with the game is that it is supposed to be an open-world role-playing game, and it was for some time in vanilla, but hasn't been anything like that ever since Crusade. Yet, the vast majority of its players flocked to it to play precisely an open-world role-playing game. Like Elder Scrolls or Zelda, only online. They got their wish fulfilled partly in vanilla. Then the developers attempted to substitute actual open-world role-playing content with rewards. To be able to maintain the game easier, faster, and at a dramatically reduced cost. Not because they didn't have the money or the good-will of the players to properly maintain it, this may be a problem for Trion or Turbine and their mediocre-selling games, but not Blizzard who are bathing in cash with their extreme financial success; but because the company preferred to keep most of the money for themselves. And just throw rewards at the players, and gameplay shenanigans to extend the longevity of the game. So in come welfare PvP epics in Crusade, then welfare PvE epics and achievements in Wrath, and then LfR in Cataclysm. And all the while they tried, time and again, to shoehorn EVERYONE into instanced content, because it is easier to develop, and of course cheaper.

    Only in Mists did they actually try to give somewhat more content to the players. And while their attempt was better than no attempt, it still falls short to what they should have actually done, way too short.

    Vanilla, was the best the game has been in terms of an actual open-world role-playing game. With eight playable races, eight classes, each with three specialisations and the freedom to create hybrid builds, six main campaigns, lots of side-questing content (entire zones even), class quests, and some odd 30+ zones to explore and adventure in; it hasn't been matched by anything that followed in WoW or any other mmorpg since. Which is the main reason most WoW-clones failed so terribly, and why WoW is failing so badly right now (not as much in subscription numbers but overall enjoyment): there is too little content, and even less of the right kind. Six main campaigns became two, 30+ zones became eight, and so on. And then people wonder why the game feels so empty and boring?! Really? This needs an explanation? The few hundred-thousand instanced PvE or/and PvP enthusiasts may enjoy the game as it is right now. But the millions of players that expected a solid open-world role-playing game are left hanging with leftovers.

    When I bought WoW in 2005 I was under the impression I would be playing a role-playing game set, mostly, in an open-world. Not kill bosses in dungeons, group or raid ones, repeatedly. I signed up to play a massive role-playing game. And for a time I did. Then Crusade came and I was, to be honest about how I feel, tricked. The game shoved epics doon my throat and I was blinded, then in Wrath it shoved even more and catered to my completionist-syndrom with achievements, it did try to be more interesting through challenge initially in Cataclsym but backed off fast due to whining from other players and instead gave me LfR to make me feel included in the "magic" that is raiding. And in Mists it tried to get me out in the world through... dailies. It did anything but give me the amount and kind of content I got back in the time that I loved this stupid game. The feeling of excitement to open the map, and take a look at all those tenths of zones awaiting me filled with mystery and adventure.

    Perhaps they should try doing that for a change over at Blizzard, and see how that goes. But then again, how to ask for more money and time from the powers-that-be and their profit-obsessed leadership...
    Last edited by Drithien; 2013-07-05 at 10:48 AM.

  10. #390
    Deleted
    I don't want to come back to this called "Golden Age" of WoW. I like the current WoW but It's true...

    -To bring back Cataclysm beginning dungeons difficulty will be welcome.
    -And make levelling a little harder too.
    -To forbide addons like Deadly boss mod can be an "interesting" solution.

  11. #391
    Herald of the Titans RicardoZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eranthe View Post
    in the beginning, yes. nowadays the encounters are tuned with boss mods in mind. so the amount of reaction time you are given is different than if boss mods didn't exist.
    That's true, but I still don't like it. Of course they should make it that way for LFR, but normals and especially heroics, I don't see any reason that people need to be using these addons that turn everything into easy-mode and hold your hand while it essentially does the encounter for you. And then they get on forums and flash their progression as if they've accomplished something.

  12. #392
    I do think theres one area of WoW that actually needs to be made easier and thats PvP. The entry to pvp wasnt the gear needed. Thats just a grind and eventually everyone gets the gear. The entry barrier is really the number of keybinds people have to use is just stupid out of control. Last time I looked in the mirror I only have 2 hands. So why then do most people pvp with 40+ keybinds? Pretty sure a gaming keyboard and mouse werent on the requirements list on the back of the game. Some people will just never be good with a lot of keybinds. I have been gaming for 15 years and still cant use more than 2 hotbars worth of keybinds. So why then should I be forced out of competitive pvp? Its not like I dont know my classes in and out and have tons of playing time to understand different situations and also know what the other team can do. But because I cant use 40 keybinds that some how makes me inferior? Pretty sure 1000s of hours of gameplay makes someone good not the fact they can mash a ton of buttons.

  13. #393
    I'd bring back elite quests (I loved Pyrewood Village or w/e it's called. It was a city full of elites). With CRZ it'd be easy to find groups and I'd finally have a reason to level up without BoA gear.

  14. #394
    I'd like to see solo content that downscales your gear the way challenge modes do, like Brawler's guild that you can't outgear.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zdrasti View Post
    When a homeless person is rambling in the streets, it's better to ignore them than argue with them. On the internets it's clearly better to spend an entire week proving them wrong.

  15. #395
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    To make World of Warcraft harder:

    Battlegrounds: Add more available players to battlegrounds. (example: 30 Players in Warsong Gulch)

    Raids: Make raid bosses and the environments around them more complex and difficult. (example: jumping platforms the entire encounter to stay alive with other obstacles to avoid. not including the bosses attacks).

    World PvP: Make the servers lag more.

    Arena/RBGs: No CC's or healing.

    Auction House: Increase the cost to post items on the AH, and a high tax % on the item sold.

    Players: Make the in-game characters be required to actually sleep at an inn.

  16. #396
    For every player that screams the game is too easy you have another that see's dailies and runs for the hills screaming in terror about having to do a 15 min a day activity for 3 weeks. For every person that wants a longer questing experience you have another that wants flight in mop before level 90 to make it go faster so they can get to the content they want.

    I find that players are too opinionated in various directions for players to decide what the game should be like. It makes it impossible for any company to base what they should do based on what players want and its best for them to decide how hard to make content.

  17. #397
    -Heroic Dungeons Harder (TBC/cata like) with NO LFD (kinda like the H Scen is now). Rewards that reflect the difficulty and that are not so easily replaced
    -Normal Dungeons with current H Dungeon difficulty WITH LFD tool available. This way both casual and ppl who likes challenges can enjoy dungeons. Rewards only suited for LFR , not Normal raids.
    -Gear not scaling much between raids, once the next tier is released usually the raids became useless (Again, not included in LFR, let casuals be casuals and enjoy the content their way). Also this will have impact on world bosses (i like the actual system , but the first bosses get killed way too fast)
    -LFR Best gear worst than first normal raid gear (e.g. SoO LFR Gear being worst than MV normal gear). Either this or normalize gear for raids (something like challenge modes) <- only for current content, restriction removed after new exp is released.
    - Insert something about gold, there's way too much gold in game right now and you have that feeling that gold will never ran out. Things such as reforge should cost a lot more, also xmog for epic items (like gorehowl)

  18. #398
    I am Murloc! Tomana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BetoDS View Post
    -LFR Best gear worst than first normal raid gear (e.g. SoO LFR Gear being worst than MV normal gear). Either this or normalize gear for raids (something like challenge modes) <- only for current content, restriction removed after new exp is released.
    Right, let's explode normal guilds recruitment even more. -_-
    MMO player
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  19. #399
    Deleted
    Badgers!!!

  20. #400
    Mechagnome jaber2's Avatar
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    Create an all out PVP server where upon death they can loot your gear and gold, there would be no dungeons or raids, you can't fly or ride mounts, every time you die you lose Exp, the only area which is free of world pvp are cities(if you can make it in), you have to rely on friends to watch your back, mobs drop all type of gear if you can kill them before someone kills you, there are no flight paths or portals and no hearthstone to get you back in town. Yeah I would do that

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