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  1. #1

    I feel like Rogues are horrible in Heroic Scenarios.

    When I play on my Death Knight I can sit in Blood Presence and tank the entire Scenario, and I've seen Feral Druids, Ret Paladins, Warriors, and Warlocks do the same thing.

    I've also had to get mad heals from Ferals, Shamans and Rets before too and it makes me feel even more worthless because I realize that not only can I not tank, but I can't offer the team heals, Bloodlust or Battle Res like the other classes can.

    I also have a big problem with the scenarios where there are things like detonate, and cannon balls going off non-stop. I get like 20% uptime on the mob while taking a huge risk of getting killed even during that small window of opportunity, meanwhile range DPS are just sitting back easily nuking the mobs down and if they get aggro they can easily kite the mob, whereas the second I get aggro I'm in some serious trouble, usually get dazed and one shotted by by random AOE because I'm moving at 20% speed and even though I see it incoming I can't move out of the way in time.

    Things like Killing Spree and Shadow Step are honestly too dangerous to use in a majority of these encounters too.

    Not saying Rogues cannot complete Heroic Scenarios, but rather that I feel guilty when I join people's Heroic Scenario groups and realize that I'm more of a liability than an asset. And I really do think this is solely a Rogue issue as I have several level 90 characters and my Rogue is the only character I have that feels worthless in H Scenarios.

    Anyone else feel this same way?

  2. #2
    Our full toolkit can be put to use in most h scenarios. Feint AoEs. Kick spells. Kidney Shot physical ones or for a brief reprieve. Gouge[talented] breaks a lot of casts. Combat Readiness is a longass shieldwall. Leeching Poison+Shiv is a lot of healing. Smoke Bomb as a defensive cd. (Double) Evasion for big packs or when CR is not up. Dismantle works on most minbosses. Vanish when all else fails. My moonkin spends most of his time running for his life trying to outheal+dot everything, rogue tends to go toe to toe and survive through cooldown usage. Being combat you should get a ton of extra healing through blade flurry and predominant physical damage.

  3. #3
    i think you're overthinking it a bit i do them with a rogue friend and its NBD. do people commonly 3 DPS it? maybe some of these issues make sense in that case, but we warlock/resto druid/rogue it up and usually get the bonus VP no problem. rogue's damage is fine too, the same as if not beating the warlock's. they don't really have a dps check or anything, and the kicks and stuns are really nice.

  4. #4
    I only see rogues die when they forget to:

    a) kick a spell cast on them (frostbolt volley, breath of fear)

    b) get out of stuff on the ground

    c) use the healing items provided in the scenario

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaustos View Post
    Our full toolkit can be put to use in most h scenarios. Feint AoEs. Kick spells. Kidney Shot physical ones or for a brief reprieve. Gouge[talented] breaks a lot of casts. Combat Readiness is a longass shieldwall. Leeching Poison+Shiv is a lot of healing. Smoke Bomb as a defensive cd. (Double) Evasion for big packs or when CR is not up. Dismantle works on most minbosses. Vanish when all else fails. My moonkin spends most of his time running for his life trying to outheal+dot everything, rogue tends to go toe to toe and survive through cooldown usage. Being combat you should get a ton of extra healing through blade flurry and predominant physical damage.
    All of the things you listed as for why Rogues are the best are things that other classes have, but in most cases have better versions of.

    Like kicking spells isn't unique, and if my Death Knight misses his mind freeze (kick) he has strangulate, and dark simulacrum as back ups.

    Comparing Combat Readiness to Shield Wall is funny because it completely overlooks Die By the Sword, Defensive Stance, and Second Wind, all of which give warriors way more survivability in a Heroic Scenario.

    Liching Poison doesn't even compare to any other classes healing spells (most of which can be used on other allies), nor does it help at all for when you get aggro. Those 7K ticks don't really matter a lot when you just took 200K worth of damage instantly, and are now running for your life / not getting healed at all because you can't use liching poison without actually hitting a mob.

    Don't take offense to this, but when I read stuff like this I almost wonder if you've played your Rogue in a while, or if you have Heroic Scenarios confused with Normal Scenarios, because Evasion and Combat Readiness don't even give you the ability to go "toe to toe" with most mobs in a normal Scenario, and it was all a healer could do to keep me alive the last time I had to use Combat Readiness and spam (glyphed) feint and recuperate on mobs after our tank got killed. Too bad I wasn't a feral or a death knight or I would have battle res'd him.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-30 at 11:41 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by crunk View Post
    i think you're overthinking it a bit i do them with a rogue friend and its NBD. do people commonly 3 DPS it? maybe some of these issues make sense in that case, but we warlock/resto druid/rogue it up and usually get the bonus VP no problem. rogue's damage is fine too, the same as if not beating the warlock's. they don't really have a dps check or anything, and the kicks and stuns are really nice.
    Oh yeah, I've actually ran that same exact comp and it's amazing having that Warlock there to tank which was noted in my opening sentence. When the group has a healer and a tank, Rogues do fine in Heroic Scenarios, but whereas every other class can do fine without a healer / tank, Rogues are completely worthless without one. That was my point, and yes, a majority of the groups I join are triple DPS due to lack of options on their part, and on my part.

    Even when I try to keep tricks on Mages and Hunters and have them kite the mob around while I trail behind it, eventually I do get aggro and die, and either way I still lose a lot more uptime because things like detonate and cannonballs have way less impact on their uptime than mine.

    This morning I was literally standing away fromt he mobs while the hunter and mage blasted them down and thinking "well, I would jump in there and help out with DPS but all of those mobs are surrounded by red rings where detonate is going off every two seconds. Thanks for the carry though."

    Whether people want to admit this or not, the majority of other melees can join the group and tank the mobs easily with their defensive stance and the right talents, and even heal the group -- Rogues cannot do this. Unlike ranged DPS who can easily kite the entire scenarios, Rogues cannot do this. We also bring basically no utility as already mentioned (battle res: really matters in 3 man groups, bloodlust: really matters in time bonus runs, no heals, no tanking capabilities etc).

  6. #6
    If you're getting hit with a 200k hit, then you're not avoiding avoidable damage. Nothing unavoidable hits that hard in scenarios. The bosses melee for about 25-30k which leeching + recuperate is more than enough to heal through if you have the required 480+ ilevel to queue.

  7. #7
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    I think you're doing something wrong if you're feeling worthless when going into HC Scenario's as a rogue. Fair enough, Rogues are not the most useful class, but they've still got a lot of abilities that are extremely useful and helpful within scenarios, as well as the amount of damage that they can put out.

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  8. #8
    Hate to agree, but yes, Rogues aren't the best in HC Scenarios, that's not to say they are awful by a long shot, but certainly under par compared to most other classes.
    Then again, this isn't really a new revelation, we have consistently been the class runt in many ways since MoP release and don't see this changing any time soon.
    Your options are essentially, play better than your opposition to compensate, or just sit it out on an alt if you really find it that much of a problem.

  9. #9
    It's not that they are horrible in H scenerios - it's more of every other class can spam 2 buttons.. barely pay attention to mechanics and make it through with ease. Rogues will be expected to do much more than press two buttons to make it through. You can still top the charts and take minimal damage. I found the more you do these Heroic scenerios the better your rogue will become because you will literally know where every piece of trash comes from and every bosses specials. Where I think other classes can go in blind and faceroll this heroic content (lol).

    @ OP ~ I think more is expected from a rogue in heroic scenerios - but they can still shine easily with some practice. Also, I think you can stun just about every mob in heroic scens.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    If you're getting hit with a 200k hit, then you're not avoiding avoidable damage. Nothing unavoidable hits that hard in scenarios. The bosses melee for about 25-30k which leeching + recuperate is more than enough to heal through if you have the required 480+ ilevel to queue.
    As said, when you get dazed you are not going to avoid AOE. My guild mates laugh hysterically at me on Ventrilo for matter-of-factly stating that I'm going to die because Echo of Y'Shaarj just put Heart of Y'Shaarj on me and there's a red ring around me indicating that I'm about to get blowed up because I can't move fast enough to get away from it. My guild members think it's so funny because it's not even like "LOL this noob isn't paying attention" but more like "lol, rogues suck so bad" and they can't get over how bad it is because they also run the scenarios with my DK who can literally stand in fire with blood presence and AMS up, while spamming conversion and never going below half life, yet still cranking out more dps than my rogue because he loses zero uptime. And that isn't to imply that the DK has to stand in fire, or can't kite the mobs easily, because I assure you with Death's Advance, and the ability to break out of any type of CC without a trinket makes it fairly simple to avoid all AOE damage and his DPS from range is legit.

    Not to mention the fact that they literally had to clear all of the trash for me because every single mob up until that point detonates meaning that you basically don't get to melee any of them at all.
    Last edited by achromatickang; 2013-06-30 at 12:24 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by achromatickang View Post
    As said, when you get dazed you are not going to avoid AOE. My guild mates laugh hysterically at me on Ventrilo for matter-of-factly stating that I'm going to die because Echo of Y'Shaarj just put Heart of Y'Shaarj on me and there's a red ring around me indicating that I'm about to get blowed up because I can't move fast enough to get away from it. My guild members think it's so funny because it's not even like "LOL this noob isn't paying attention" but more like "lol, rogues suck so bad" and they can't get over how bad it is because they also run the scenarios with my DK who can literally stand in fire with blood presence and AMS up, while spamming conversion and never going below half life, yet still cranking out more dps than my rogue because he loses zero uptime.
    Feint + Sprint out, shadowstep out, clos and run out. You shouldn't be dying I'm afraid.

    Rogues do have enough tools and do just fine in heroic scenarios. If your party isn't playing as a team it might feel awful, yes (that's assuming you're not totally overgearing heroic scenarios since gear obviously makes the scenarios trivial)
    Main: Rogue - Alt: Balance Druid

  12. #12
    Rogues bring mass stealth which can be used on several scenarios to skip a lot of trash.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigeri View Post
    Feint + Sprint out, shadowstep out, clos and run out. You shouldn't be dying I'm afraid.

    Rogues do have enough tools and do just fine in heroic scenarios. If your party isn't playing as a team it might feel awful, yes (that's assuming you're not totally overgearing heroic scenarios since gear obviously makes the scenarios trivial)
    Sprint isn't going to help you with that particular ability as Sprint is on a 1 minute CD and this ability will get applied to the nearest melee character in the area about 3-4 times per minute. In retro, yeah, I probably could take Burst of Speed specifically for this encounter, but it still doesn't change the fact that just about every other class in the game can face roll the entire scenario while Rogues cannot.

    I mean don't get me wrong, when I have an ideal team, Rogues are fine. That is not the dispute. When a Warlock or DK wants to come and tank for my Rogue while a Holy Paladin heals us, the runs are smooth. This is not because of my Rogue, but because the other classes are that much better than him. Once you take the OP classes out of the equation, that is when you run into problems. For instance, Mage, Hunter, Rogue is horrible, but Mage, Hunter + any other DPS is a great combination. Basically just about any triple DPS group will have zero problems with a Heroic Scenario as long as there isn't a rogue in the group. This is the problem I most frequently run into, and it's just an obvious flaw within the class balancing system. I don't even think it would bother me as much if I didn't regularly watch the other melee "dps" classes tank the same content so easily.
    Last edited by achromatickang; 2013-06-30 at 12:37 PM.

  14. #14
    IMO, Rogues have always required a lot more skill then most (or all) classes to play competitively. They are capable of being successful in any aspect of the game, but are going to require much more awareness and use of your full toolkit. Even just the rotation on a stationary fight, requires much more focus and micromanagement than most classes.

    That, IMO, is one of the reason you saw a sharp decline in the Rogue population once Blizzard removed the auto-stunlock from 100-0 when all your cooldowns are up. Once Rogues found they couldn't burst people down like that anymore, they found easier classes to play.

    The problem in changing that is that there are still a lot of Rogues that enjoy that complexity, so Blizzard appears content on leaving Rogues as a "hard mode" class.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    IMO, Rogues have always required a lot more skill then most (or all) classes to play competitively. They are capable of being successful in any aspect of the game, but are going to require much more awareness and use of your full toolkit. Even just the rotation on a stationary fight, requires much more focus and micromanagement than most classes.

    That, IMO, is one of the reason you saw a sharp decline in the Rogue population once Blizzard removed the auto-stunlock from 100-0 when all your cooldowns are up. Once Rogues found they couldn't burst people down like that anymore, they found easier classes to play.

    The problem in changing that is that there are still a lot of Rogues that enjoy that complexity, so Blizzard appears content on leaving Rogues as a "hard mode" class.
    Not Assassination at least xD

  16. #16
    Rogues are deffinitely not a "hard mode" class, and composition doesn't matter in heroic scanrios at all.

  17. #17
    You have to pay attention and cycle cooldowns and avoid damage... that is really the heart of playing a rogue in general so um... yeah.

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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by achromatickang View Post
    As said, when you get dazed you are not going to avoid AOE. My guild mates laugh hysterically at me on Ventrilo for matter-of-factly stating that I'm going to die because Echo of Y'Shaarj just put Heart of Y'Shaarj on me and there's a red ring around me indicating that I'm about to get blowed up because I can't move fast enough to get away from it. My guild members think it's so funny because it's not even like "LOL this noob isn't paying attention" but more like "lol, rogues suck so bad" and they can't get over how bad it is because they also run the scenarios with my DK who can literally stand in fire with blood presence and AMS up, while spamming conversion and never going below half life, yet still cranking out more dps than my rogue because he loses zero uptime. And that isn't to imply that the DK has to stand in fire, or can't kite the mobs easily, because I assure you with Death's Advance, and the ability to break out of any type of CC without a trinket makes it fairly simple to avoid all AOE damage and his DPS from range is legit.

    Not to mention the fact that they literally had to clear all of the trash for me because every single mob up until that point detonates meaning that you basically don't get to melee any of them at all.
    I'm sorry but that's just a load of bullcrap. If you die cause you got dazed then that's a problem on your end - first off, for not anticipating there'd be aoe where you are right now, and secondly, because you have 200 ways to get away - shadowstep, cloak if it's magical, and even Feint alone should keep you alive with not much issue.

    There's nothing overly complicated about heroic scenarios, not for any class, not melee, not ranged, and certainly not rogues. I agree rogues have issues, mostly in the form of FUN, IT IS NOWHERE TO BE FOUND, but if I had to make a heroic scenario comp, a well-played rogue would be on the top of my Want list.

  19. #19
    Wow, my experience has been totally opposite. Blade Flurry + evasion just melts whole sections of adds. Very strong damage, excellent controls (most mobs are stunnable).

    I feel perfectly fine in h. scenarios. Very strong indeed.

  20. #20
    OP is right. Ranged can just cc/snare mobs (even many of bosses can be affected by cc/snares) and ignore half (if not all) of their idiotic mechanics. Some mobs are made just entirely to say "if you play melee dps in this game - you are doing it wrong", like those big mobs in ragefire scenario, which hit in melee like trucks, and their damage output increases over time. Sucks as melee to no end. Meanwhile ranged can just snare/cc this mob and nuke. Banners in Dun Morogh scenario? Lol-pewpew by ranged. However melee will get global'd on his way to banner.

    But that's what happens when you start overloading the game with way too much arcade mechanics.

    Having said this, hc scenarios are quite easy, just are way too much arcade-based. And if you happen to go there with 3 melee - it will be horrible experience. Ranged dps decreases arcade "difficulty" of scenarios by a whole lot.

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