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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by jandonyada View Post
    What's the maximum BW delay you would allow yourself?

    And when you do delay it, you start your BW at 7-8 stacks (~14s in) ?

    wrt to the hatin'....haha I know right... people need to CTFO
    As Tehstool mentioned, during your opener it requires near perfect GCD execution to be able to fit all 5 KC's in and make sure that KC lands in the last 2 seconds (If you pull it off though, you see some amazing numbers). During the course of the fight however I only delay a few seconds (3-5) if it means getting a good Renataki duration during BW. Usually my rule is fitting 2 KCs into those last few seconds of Renatakis.

  2. #62
    So I did some testing and it's only worth it to snapshot if you can let the full duration go.. Then the difference between an unbuffed srs and a buffed srs ends up being greater than an arcane shot. There are still situations where that's possible to do. If BW will be coming off cd right when the proc ends, or a couple seconds after. Then you can easily snapshot and then burn through BW, and end up being able to get all 5 buffed srs ticks off. Or if you have RF + fervor available, it might be possible. What I previously mentioned about 3 ticks > AS applies to multi target, where it's always worth it to srs at max stacks as opposed to an AS.

    Though perhaps the biggest benefit is lining up those KC's during the opener. And as mentioned, it's tough to do but well worth it.

  3. #63
    Blademaster Rabak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sre View Post
    As Tehstool mentioned, during your opener it requires near perfect GCD execution to be able to fit all 5 KC's in and make sure that KC lands in the last 2 seconds (If you pull it off though, you see some amazing numbers). During the course of the fight however I only delay a few seconds (3-5) if it means getting a good Renataki duration during BW. Usually my rule is fitting 2 KCs into those last few seconds of Renatakis.
    Hm cool that's what I try to do as well.. It's a little hard in the opener, I'd just do a standard opener, i.e getting 5/5 KCs down without necessarily getting the last into the last 2 sec of Renataki.

  4. #64
    Most of you figured it out already but this is what i do and there is no better opener right now. The only way you can do more damage in the opener is when you time your barrage with stormlash. ( http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...&s=8288&e=8332 )

    Opener with Renataki
    There is no room for error. You need to hit every KC on cd or you won't hit the 5th with all procs and cooldowns up.

    (i only pre cast RF/Berserking when my pull on proc chance from my trinkets isn't 100% for a guaranteed double trinket proc)
    Serpent Sting
    Bestial Wrath (macro with rabid)
    gains Blades (renataki proc)
    Kill Command
    Rapid Fire
    Stampede
    Blades (2)
    Dire Beast
    Cobra Shot (early Cobra just for the 2 set proc)
    Blades (3)
    Glaive Toss
    Arcane Shot
    Blades (4)
    Kill Command
    Readiness (macro readiness together with KC)
    Kill Command
    Blades (5)
    Glaive Toss
    Dire Beast
    Blades (6)
    Bestial Wrath (delaly 0.5-1 second so i won’t fade before the 5th KC)
    Cobra Shot
    Blades (7)
    Kill Command
    Arcane Shot
    Blades (8)
    Arcane Shot
    Arcane Shot
    Blades (9)
    Arcane Shot
    Arcane Shot
    Blades (10)
    Kill Command
    Blades fades

    Off Topic
    One last tip because so many top hunter do it wrong and it breaks my heart =(.
    Turn off Dash auto toggle
    So many pet focus wasted if you let it on. Even on fights like durumu i saw logs where the pet is using it like 8-10 times. 300 pet focus wasted.
    Last edited by Fatal-; 2013-07-07 at 09:17 AM. Reason: Removed 3rd Cobra shot don't know why i put it there i never do 3

  5. #65
    Blademaster Rabak's Avatar
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    hmm I can't say I agree with casting DB and RF+stampede during BW.. you waste gcds on stuff that don't profit from BW. I usually cast DB before using my RF+Stampede+BW+Rabid+Synapse springs macro. That way I free up my 10 seconds of BW for GTs, ASs and KCs.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabak View Post
    Hm cool that's what I try to do as well.. It's a little hard in the opener, I'd just do a standard opener, i.e getting 5/5 KCs down without necessarily getting the last into the last 2 sec of Renataki.
    If you use KC on CD, with readiness immediately after the 2nd KC to get your third in your timing should be perfect to fit 5 into those 20 seconds, with your last KC landing in that last second. (It's ridiculously close, high UI latency and it's possible you'll miss it often.)

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabak View Post
    hmm I can't say I agree with casting DB and RF+stampede during BW.. you waste gcds on stuff that don't profit from BW. I usually cast DB before using my RF+Stampede+BW+Rabid+Synapse springs macro. That way I free up my 10 seconds of BW for GTs, ASs and KCs.
    You didn't really understand how it works. You have to use everything in your 20 seconds double trinket proc and you wan't to have both dire beast up with high agil procs.
    You can't waste a gcd or you won't make the 5th KC with BW and double trinket proc up.

    Edit:
    Dire Beasts do insane dmg with trinket procs up.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...3D+%22Fatal%22
    Last edited by Fatal-; 2013-07-07 at 01:36 AM. Reason: dire beast WoL

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Saoron View Post
    So I did some testing and it's only worth it to snapshot if you can let the full duration go.. Then the difference between an unbuffed srs and a buffed srs ends up being greater than an arcane shot.
    I did some testing. With bad juju and renataki's up, SrS is ticking for ~25k and arcane shot was hitting for ~60k. Unbuffed, my SrS is ticking for 13k, so a 12k gain. If you get all 5 ticks off that would be 60k. Which is essentially a wash, because you apply your first SrS with your pre pot and possibly other procs depending on how you do your opener. Even if you somehow pull it off, it wouldn't be worth it, because of our 2 set and how real ppm behaves with CS. Anything greater than 10 seconds is a loss and you need 15. If you did that you'd basically be losing 5+ seconds.

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  9. #69
    The Lightbringer Joyful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal- View Post
    You didn't really understand how it works. You have to use everything in your 20 seconds double trinket proc and you wan't to have both dire beast up with high agil procs.
    You can't waste a gcd or you won't make the 5th KC with BW and double trinket proc up.

    Edit:
    Dire Beasts do insane dmg with trinket procs up.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...3D+%22Fatal%22
    Are you using 2 DB at the same time?

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Joyful View Post
    Are you using 2 DB at the same time?
    Yeah, it's from readiness.

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  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    I did some testing. With bad juju and renataki's up, SrS is ticking for ~25k and arcane shot was hitting for ~60k. Unbuffed, my SrS is ticking for 13k, so a 12k gain. If you get all 5 ticks off that would be 60k. Which is essentially a wash, because you apply your first SrS with your pre pot and possibly other procs depending on how you do your opener. Even if you somehow pull it off, it wouldn't be worth it, because of our 2 set and how real ppm behaves with CS. Anything greater than 10 seconds is a loss and you need 15. If you did that you'd basically be losing 5+ seconds.
    I got different numbers than you.. my AS was hitting for around 53k.. while srs numbers were closer to yours. Lost the paper where I wrote them down. It ended up being more damage by a few thousand. But that wasn't accounting for the 10s 2 set window.. Doesn't having it not proc simply increase the chances for it to proc on the next attack ?

    Also @Fatal, Do you pop your second RF before that third CS ? cuz otherwise you'd need like flawless latency to squeeze that in if it's not near the gcd..
    And wouldn't a precasted CS be better ? prepot at 1.5s and then pre-cast a CS. Lose out on 1.5s of the prepot but you replace that first CS with an AS so it should make up for it.
    Last edited by Saoron; 2013-07-07 at 05:38 AM.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal- View Post
    Most of you figured it out already but this is what i do and there is no better opener right now. The only way you can do more damage in the opener is when you time your barrage with stormlash. ( http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...&s=8288&e=8332 )

    Opener with Renataki
    There is no room for error. You need to hit every KC on cd or you won't hit the 5th with all procs and cooldowns up.

    (i only pre cast RF/Berserking when my pull on proc chance from my trinkets isn't 100% for a guaranteed double trinket proc)
    Serpent Sting
    Bestial Wrath (macro with rabid)
    gains Blades (renataki proc)
    Kill Command
    Rapid Fire
    Stampede
    Blades (2)
    Dire Beast
    Cobra Shot (early Cobra just for the 2 set proc)
    Blades (3)
    Glaive Toss
    Arcane Shot
    Blades (4)
    Kill Command
    Readiness (macro readiness together with KC)
    Kill Command
    Blades (5)
    Glaive Toss
    Dire Beast
    Blades (6)
    Bestial Wrath (delaly 0.5-1 second so i won’t fade before the 5th KC)
    Cobra Shot
    Blades (7)
    Kill Command
    Arcane Shot
    Blades (8)
    Arcane Shot
    Arcane Shot
    Blades (9)
    Cobra Shot
    Arcane Shot
    Blades (10)
    Kill Command
    Blades fades

    Off Topic
    One last tip because so many top hunter do it wrong and it breaks my heart =(.
    Turn off Dash auto toggle
    So many pet focus wasted if you let it on. Even on fights like durumu i saw logs where the pet is using it like 8-10 times. 300 pet focus wasted.
    This opener made me wonder if it'd be worth macroing /stopattack into dire beast and stampede, and use them before Serpent sting. You'd lose an auto attack and a tick of serpent sting, but you'd open up for abilities that benefit from BW inside your cooldowns instead. Only issue is that while Renataki can't proc from the Dire Beast cast, your Bad Juju can. Haven't gotten bad juju to proc from stampede yet, but 5 min cooldown = it takes ages to test.
    In the end, it's probably not worth it, but still, should figure it out when I'm more awake ;_;.

    Worth nothing is also that your first cobra shot is in between 2 and 3 stack renataki along with another ability, implying your cobra shot is a 1 second cast. But in between the 6 and 7 stack, you ONLY have cobra shot. Then again between 9 and 10, you've got cobra+arcane.

    Is this to make sure the opener "fits" if there's not a bloodlust on the pull, or did you forget to add an ability?

    If it's the latter, people have to remember that even in full BiS gear, your cobra shot won't go below 1 sec casted with just rapid fire up - which means that you have to leave an ability out (as has been done already) on Jin rokh, Horridon, Meg, Primordius, Animus, Qon, Twins, Lei Shen and Ra Den, but can add an ability in between 6/7 stack if you are on Council, Tortos, Ji Kun, or Durumu.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Saoron View Post
    I got different numbers than you.. my AS was hitting for around 53k.. while srs numbers were closer to yours. Lost the paper where I wrote them down. But that wasn't accounting for the 10s 2 set window.. Doesn't having it not proc simply increase the chances for it to proc on the next attack ?
    The formula is designed to only activate when it goes a certain amount above the predicted time period. So you'd only be gaining the benefit of the 10 seconds since the other formula to determine your Real PPM chance is capped at 10 seconds.

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  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    This opener made me wonder if it'd be worth macroing /stopattack into dire beast and stampede, and use them before Serpent sting. You'd lose an auto attack and a tick of serpent sting, but you'd open up for abilities that benefit from BW inside your cooldowns instead. Only issue is that while Renataki can't proc from the Dire Beast cast, your Bad Juju can. Haven't gotten bad juju to proc from stampede yet, but 5 min cooldown = it takes ages to test.
    In the end, it's probably not worth it, but still, should figure it out when I'm more awake ;_;.

    Worth nothing is also that your first cobra shot is in between 2 and 3 stack renataki along with another ability, implying your cobra shot is a 1 second cast. But in between the 6 and 7 stack, you ONLY have cobra shot. Then again between 9 and 10, you've got cobra+arcane.

    Is this to make sure the opener "fits" if there's not a bloodlust on the pull, or did you forget to add an ability?

    If it's the latter, people have to remember that even in full BiS gear, your cobra shot won't go below 1 sec casted with just rapid fire up - which means that you have to leave an ability out (as has been done already) on Jin rokh, Horridon, Meg, Primordius, Animus, Qon, Twins, Lei Shen and Ra Den, but can add an ability in between 6/7 stack if you are on Council, Tortos, Ji Kun, or Durumu.
    Draco let me tell you I have been testing this opener all day and there is absolutely no reason to take the Cobra Shots out and replacing them with Arcane Shots, and manually re-applying SrS 1 second before it falls off.

    That is, unless, Fatal can explain why all the CoS's.

    edit: my best 21 second iteration of the modified Fatal opener compared to the first 21 seconds of Fatal's #10 Iron Qon parse

    His 14 Auto Shots to my 12 (I dont have Berserking)
    His 6 AS to my 9
    His 1 CoS to my 0 (this CoS earned him a full 14 focus)
    2 GTs and 2 DBs apiece

    The great discrepancy in autoshot damage may be because I was unpotioned or because my LBSoD had a very poor proc, I'm not sure.
    Last edited by D R E A D E D; 2013-07-07 at 07:08 AM.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by D R E A D E D View Post
    Draco let me tell you I have been testing this opener all day and there is absolutely no reason to take the Cobra Shots out and replacing them with Arcane Shots, and manually re-applying SrS 1 second before it falls off.

    That is, unless, Fatal can explain why all the CoS's.

    edit: my best 21 second iteration of the modified Fatal opener compared to the first 21 seconds of Fatal's #10 Iron Qon parse

    His 14 Auto Shots to my 12 (I dont have Berserking)
    His 6 AS to my 9
    His 1 CoS to my 0 (this CoS earned him a full 14 focus)
    2 GTs and 2 DBs apiece

    The great discrepancy in autoshot damage may be because I was unpotioned or because my LBSoD had a very poor proc, I'm not sure.
    The logs aren't accessible and/or are broken.

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  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    The logs aren't accessible and/or are broken.
    try once more, I toggled the privacy on mine.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by D R E A D E D View Post
    try once more, I toggled the privacy on mine.
    I think you linked your log for both yours and fatal's logs (both link to the same log).

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  18. #78

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal- View Post
    Most of you figured it out already but this is what i do and there is no better opener right now.
    are you sure about this?

    because i dont think the same.

    still dont know why would u pop BW and waste over 3 gcds on direbeast, cos (saying is 1 sec cobra), stampede during BW.

    i open with KC, srs, DB, stampede, CoS, CoS (if is under 1 sec if not i will pop an arcane shot here), BW -> pretty much the same after that.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Worth nothing is also that your first cobra shot is in between 2 and 3 stack renataki along with another ability, implying your cobra shot is a 1 second cast. But in between the 6 and 7 stack, you ONLY have cobra shot. Then again between 9 and 10, you've got cobra+arcane.

    Is this to make sure the opener "fits" if there's not a bloodlust on the pull, or did you forget to add an ability?
    You waste 1 second on your trinket proc because they will proc from CS and you still need to apply SrS. Pre casting CS isn't really possible most off the times i have to use pre RF/Berserking or my trinkets won't proc. Besides you are losing 1-2 seconds on your pre pot anyways if you pre cast CS that sounds really bad.

    My Cobra Shots are always 1 second even without BL because im a Troll.

    [22:38:20.754] Fatal begins to cast Cobra Shot
    [22:38:21.597] Fatal casts Cobra Shot on Ro'shak
    [22:38:21.614] Fatal casts Bestial Wrath

    Quote Originally Posted by D R E A D E D View Post
    Draco let me tell you I have been testing this opener all day and there is absolutely no reason to take the Cobra Shots out and replacing them with Arcane Shots, and manually re-applying SrS 1 second before it falls off.

    That is, unless, Fatal can explain why all the CoS's.

    edit: my best 21 second iteration of the modified Fatal opener compared to the first 21 seconds of Fatal's #10 Iron Qon parse

    His 14 Auto Shots to my 12 (I dont have Berserking)
    His 6 AS to my 9
    His 1 CoS to my 0 (this CoS earned him a full 14 focus)
    2 GTs and 2 DBs apiece

    The great discrepancy in autoshot damage may be because I was unpotioned or because my LBSoD had a very poor proc, I'm not sure.
    I Cobra Shot to reapply SrS for higher ticks and the ticks do more damage together with CS then 1 Arcane Shot. If you do 0 CS your SrS will fall off.

    It's not only more autoshots. My pet does more auto attacks too because of Berserking and you didn't use CS for a garantueed Thunderhawk proc (always 100% chance on the first CS).

    Anyways it's possible to squezze in 1 Arcane shot but most off the times i have to press KC exactly on cd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saoron View Post
    Also @Fatal, Do you pop your second RF before that third CS ? cuz otherwise you'd need like flawless latency to squeeze that in if it's not near the gcd..
    And wouldn't a precasted CS be better ? prepot at 1.5s and then pre-cast a CS. Lose out on 1.5s of the prepot but you replace that first CS with an AS so it should make up for it.
    Most off the times i wait till my trinkets run out so i can use Focus Fire(if possible) together with RF and get a very high chance for another trinket proc. Pre casting CS is pretty bad like i mentioned above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Perrito View Post
    are you sure about this?

    because i dont think the same.

    still dont know why would u pop BW and waste over 3 gcds on direbeast, cos (saying is 1 sec cobra), stampede during BW.

    i open with KC, srs, DB, stampede, CoS, CoS (if is under 1 sec if not i will pop an arcane shot here), BW -> pretty much the same after that.
    First KC without trinket procs and you waste so much time on your trinkets getting your focus back because you don't use BW early.
    Last edited by Fatal-; 2013-07-07 at 08:17 AM.

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