Optimising Renataki's Soul Charm as BM

[Windthorn]

Why on earth are you casting DB, rf/stampede during BW, doesn't make sense. Also it's better to pre cast cobra shot at 1.5 secs pre pull to proc 2 set. My opener which has reliable good burst and procs my truckers more often than not is :

Pre cast cobra( pre pot etc.)
SrS
DB
RF/Stampede macro
BW/KC macro, GT
AS, then KC when CD is up
Readiness/KC macro, followed quickly by GT to get it into the first BW
First BW ends
Manually reapply SrS or CS
DB
AS till KC is of cd
Second BW/KC macro
As till KC is ready
The 5th KC usually lines up with 2-3 seconds of rentaki
Spam AS until BW is finished and then hit second RF, normal rotation

Doing this I more often than not get 5 KC in one rentaki proc and BW gcds are not wasted in casting CS or DB, stampede etc..,

[tyrindor]

I've never been one to really delay shots just for Renataki's... or any trinkets/procs for that matter. It doesn't seem as beneficial as it does for other classes. The main thing to me is just to use BW right before KC, so you get 2 KCs during BW, other than that it's almost always just a skill priority "use em when they are off CD" rotation while keeping your focus in check. I've seen hunters go to the extremes with trying to min/max heavy hitting abilities with procs, and it always sounds beneficial on paper, but in the end I typically squeeze out ahead with a couple more shots making up the difference. It's very hard to predict trinket procs now, and if you mess up your going to end up getting a DPS loss, not a gain. In the end, the majority of hunters end up breaking even or doing worse for much more effort (effort that could of been put into better raid awareness or something else). I definitely feel there is a small gain if (big if) you are doing it correctly, but it's personally too much of a gamble for me and I find myself doing worse when attempting to line up shots perfectly.

My theory is, delaying KC during a fight (even for 1/4 of a second) in order to make them do slightly more damage will not make up for losing 5+ KCs throughout the fight. All those little delays add up and the pros do not seem to outweigh the cons in my experience. I have a top 100 parse on every fight this tier (minus 2), and got a 7th parse on H Duru this week. So I like to think i'm doing something right.

Also, hello dreaded and tehstool!

[Deleted]

Why on earth are you casting DB, rf/stampede during BW, doesn't make sense. Also it's better to pre cast cobra shot at 1.5 secs pre pull to proc 2 set. My opener which has reliable good burst and procs my truckers more often than not is :

Pre cast cobra( pre pot etc.)
SrS
DB
RF/Stampede macro
BW/KC macro, GT
AS, then KC when CD is up
Readiness/KC macro, followed quickly by GT to get it into the first BW
First BW ends
Manually reapply SrS or CS
DB
AS till KC is of cd
Second BW/KC macro
As till KC is ready
The 5th KC usually lines up with 2-3 seconds of rentaki
Spam AS until BW is finished and then hit second RF, normal rotation

Doing this I more often than not get 5 KC in one rentaki proc and BW gcds are not wasted in casting CS or DB, stampede etc..,

Pre cast cobra is really bad like i mentioned in my last post.
With your method you won't even make the 5th KC with trinket procs up because you used 3 gcds infront off the first KC.

pre cobra
gains Blades
Serpent Sting
Dire Beast
Blades (2)
Rapid Fire
Stampede
Bestial Wrath
Kill Command
Blades (3)
Glaive Toss
Arcane Shot
Blades (4)
x
x
Blades (5)
x
Kill Command
Readiness
Blades (6)
Kill Command
Glaive Toss
Blades (7)
Dire Beast
Bestial Wrath
Cobra Shot
Blades (8)
Kill Command
Arcane Shot
Blades (9)
Arcane Shot
Arcane Shot
Blades (10)
Cobra Shot
Arcane Shot
Blades fades
Kill Command

- - - Updated - - -

My theory is, delaying KC during a fight (even for 1/4 of a second) in order to make them it do slightly more damage will not make up for losing 5+ KCs throughout the fight. All those little delays add up and the pros do not seem to outweigh the cons in my experience. I have a top 100 parse on every fight this tier (minus 2), and got a 7th parse on H Duru this week. So I like to think i'm doing something right.

Also, hello dreaded and tehstool!

That was your first good rank and you played with GT what is pretty bad for durumu =/. So how do you think you got 1 good rank?
Maybe Blades of Renataki 45.7 % / Juju Madness 38.3 %. Not sure. =p

[Rabak]

Most of you figured it out already but this is what i do and there is no better opener right now. The only way you can do more damage in the opener is when you time your barrage with stormlash. ( http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...&s=8288&e=8332 )

Opener with Renataki
There is no room for error. You need to hit every KC on cd or you won't hit the 5th with all procs and cooldowns up.

(i only pre cast RF/Berserking when my pull on proc chance from my trinkets isn't 100% for a guaranteed double trinket proc)
Serpent Sting
Bestial Wrath (macro with rabid)
gains Blades (renataki proc)
Kill Command
Rapid Fire
Stampede
Blades (2)
Dire Beast
Cobra Shot (early Cobra just for the 2 set proc)
Blades (3)
Glaive Toss
Arcane Shot
Blades (4)
Kill Command
Readiness (macro readiness together with KC)
Kill Command
Blades (5)
Glaive Toss
Dire Beast
Blades (6)
Bestial Wrath (delaly 0.5-1 second so i won’t fade before the 5th KC)
Cobra Shot
Blades (7)
Kill Command
Arcane Shot
Blades (8)
Arcane Shot
Arcane Shot
Blades (9)
Cobra Shot
Arcane Shot
Blades (10)
Kill Command
Blades fades

Ok pretty sweet that you can fit all 5 KCs in the 20s Renataki proc window, but its so counter intuitive for me to cast a CS right after a BW as you did on your 2nd BW. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is to 1. Update your SS ticks due to higher Renataki stacks and 2. Chance to proc 2pc which on paper sounds good and should lead to higher dps. I raid with 200ms so its really pretty tight on my end, prob have to sacrifice an AS somewhere to fit the last KC in. Wonder if its worth it. For now I have to work on cutting the bad habit of hard casting SS as opposed to CS >2s before SS drops and not worry too much about focus capping.

[Windthorn]

I'm afraid I do make the 5 th KC as it usually procs when I hit rf/stampede. Pre casting CS is something Rogerbrown mentioned as it more often than not procs 2 set at the start. I usually have 2-3 seconds left on my proc of blades when the 5th KC hits. As rentaki procs when I hit my rf/stampede macro all my heavy hitting shots benefit from it.

[tyrindor]

That was your first good rank and you played with GT what is pretty bad for durumu =/. So how do you think you got 1 good rank?
Maybe Blades of Renataki 45.7 % / Juju Madness 38.3 %. Not sure. =p

I xferred this week, so those ranks are only one lockout. Also depends on your definition of "good", i'd consider anything top 100 pretty good for hunter parses, I generally aim for top 75. Looking at your parses, you are definitely in a league above me, but i've never considered myself to be the best hunter out there. If I parse top 100, i'm generally happy with it.

[Windthorn]

@ tyrondor, interesting opener, curious if you macro RF with Stampede and KC/BW? There have been numerous threads on openers and the general consensus is not to cast DB, SrS during BW, I get you though about using big hitters right of the bat but still wonder if its better not to waste gcds on DB, SrS during BW, certainly will try your opener but many here say not to waste gcds on stuff like DB during BW. Is the reason you say it's bad pre casting CS because of the pre potting but I've only been doing it due to the 2 set bonus.

[tyrindor]

@ tyrondor, interesting opener, curious if you macro RF with Stampede and KC/BW? There have been numerous threads on openers and the general consensus is not to cast DB, SrS during BW, I get you though about using big hitters right of the bat but still wonder if its better not to waste gcds on DB, SrS during BW, certainly will try your opener but many here say not to waste gcds on stuff like DB during BW.

I don't use any macros that combine skills, I just have lots of keybinds. My opener is probably not the absolute best out there, but it is competitive. I know openers are highly debated even amongst the best of the best hunters, so as long as my parses remain top 100 and my DPS competitive in the guild, i'm generally happy. I don't claim to be the absolute best hunter, fatal has some very impressive logs and he's probably got min/maxing down better than most on this thread. I will give his opener a go, but I hate the fact it's so tight and one tiny delay or mistake will probably make it worse than easier openers.

[Saoron]

@Fatal.. Well you didn't get my point.. If you precast cobra, yes you lose 1.5s off your prepot. But that prepot will line up with your trinket procs anyways since it's a 25s duration and the trinkets last for 20s and they proc after the 2nd global at most, so even with the 1.5s loss, it still lines up. What you're losing is 1.5s of non-stacked potion (only 4k agi) BUT you are gaining an AS instead of that CS during Juju + a stack or 2 of renataki plus scope plus synapse springs etc. Which is a huge difference. Especially considering you don't need to extend srs at that point, nor do you need any focus. So basically all you're trading off is CS dmg vs AS dmg. I mean at the end of that last (5th) KC, you'd be cobra shotting anyways so either way you're using that 1.5s of prepot casting a CS. With a precast CS you're simply doing it before the trinkets instead of doing it after the trinkets.
Might not have explained it the best way but do you get what I mean ?

And as someone else mentioned above, whenever I open with a precasted CS, Srs, DB, Stampede.. the trinkets proc right as I finish casting Stampede.. Because of the travel time of CS+SrS.. In which case it would line up, so long as you have decent latency.. Because i'm assuming the only reason you cast Stampede and DB after BW is just to ensure the 5th KC lines up.. So as long as that purpose is served, it'd be better to switch them before BW wouldn't it.. Unless there is some other reason you do it

Also curious why you put a deft in your neck.. did it sim higher ?

[Deleted]

And as someone else mentioned above, whenever I open with a precasted CS, Srs, DB, Stampede.. the trinkets proc right as I finish casting Stampede.. Because of the travel time of CS+SrS.. In which case it would line up, so long as you have decent latency.. Because i'm assuming the only reason you cast Stampede and DB after BW is just to ensure the 5th KC lines up.. So as long as that purpose is served, it'd be better to switch them before BW wouldn't it.. Unless there is some other reason you do it

Also curious why you put a deft in your neck.. did it sim higher ?

I checked a few logs always the same.

[22:13:45.771] Fatal casts Serpent Sting on Ro'shak
[22:13:46.240] Fatal casts Bestial Wrath
[22:13:46.256] Fatal casts Synapse Springs
[22:13:46.541] Fatal gains Blades from Fatal
[22:13:46.557] Fatal gains Juju Madness from Fatal
[22:13:46.724] Fatal casts Kill Command on Ro'shak
[22:13:47.425] Fatal casts Berserking
[22:13:47.511] Fatal casts Rapid Fire
[22:13:47.912] Fatal casts Stampede

Trinkets always proc like this for me and when i pre cast i would lose 1 second of my trinket procs because they would proc together with Cobra Shot and i won't make the 5th KC with everything up.
I don't think that latency can be that bad. The only way why your trinket proc that late is because you "proc on pull" timer is still not at 100%.

As for the Neck gem i take my stat weights from simultationcraft and put them into MR.Robot.

[Perrito]

First KC without trinket procs and you waste so much time on your trinkets getting your focus back because you don't use BW early.

what? you are crazy my friend.

like you are just trying to fit in a 16 sec CD into a 20 sec proc, yeah you can have a few sec delay betewn them.

you still wasting 10% more damage gcds into non damaging abilities like stampede (lol 1 direbeast may do more damage than this) and direbeast. the cobra shot if you casting at 1 sec it could be marginal but still. thats 2 arcane shots you are missing.

mind as well just open with direbeast and stampede. and then pop your bw, that make more sense.

i have no issues with focus on my opener. matter of fact is i sometimes even cap if i get a proc from Invigoration.

[D R E A D E D]

I checked a few logs always the same.

[22:13:45.771] Fatal casts Serpent Sting on Ro'shak
[22:13:46.240] Fatal casts Bestial Wrath
[22:13:46.256] Fatal casts Synapse Springs
[22:13:46.541] Fatal gains Blades from Fatal
[22:13:46.557] Fatal gains Juju Madness from Fatal
[22:13:46.724] Fatal casts Kill Command on Ro'shak
[22:13:47.425] Fatal casts Berserking
[22:13:47.511] Fatal casts Rapid Fire
[22:13:47.912] Fatal casts Stampede

Trinkets always proc like this for me and when i pre cast i would lose 1 second of my trinket procs because they would proc together with Cobra Shot and i won't make the 5th KC with everything up.
I don't think that latency can be that bad. The only way why your trinket proc that late is because you "proc on pull" timer is still not at 100%.

As for the Neck gem i take my stat weights from simultationcraft and put them into MR.Robot.

@Saoron and others asking about the pre-cast CoS

You cannot do it, if you want to put SrS at the pull. The CoS will proc your trinkets, making your SrS the first ability inside of Blades, and you will not get the 5th KC off with the 10-stack.

what? you are crazy my friend.

like you are just trying to fit in a 16 sec CD into a 20 sec proc, yeah you can have a few sec delay betewn them.

you still wasting 10% more damage gcds into non damaging abilities like stampede (lol 1 direbeast may do more damage than this) and direbeast. the cobra shot if you casting at 1 sec it could be marginal but still. thats 2 arcane shots you are missing.

mind as well just open with direbeast and stampede. and then pop your bw, that make more sense.

i have no issues with focus on my opener. matter of fact is i sometimes even cap if i get a proc from Invigoration.

16 seconds? what are you talking about

KC 1 second into blades
KC 7 seconds into blades
KC 8 seconds into blades
KC 14 seconds into blades
KC 20 seconds into blades

[Perrito]

Double bw is 16 sec, renakatis is 20 sec.

[Tehstool]

Double bw is 16 sec, renakatis is 20 sec.

Double bestial wrath from readiness lasts for 20 seconds. I'm not sure what you are getting at here.

[Saoron]

It could possibly be that the rppm hadn't fully reset.. I usually pull boss right away after trash or I see the same result in between quick pulls.. But man timing that shit with 380ms is hard..

But I was wondering the same thing Draco mentioned.. Does stampede work like normal pets and not proc trinkets ? Cuz if that's true, wouldn't it be best to pre-pot, and open with stampede (to get that global out of the way) and then follow up with your opener starting from SrS ? This way your trinkets won't proc until after you srs so it's the same timing just shifting stampede before srs and adding an AS inplace of it..
DB I guess does proc JuJu so that would throw the timing off.. but if stampede works that way then that would be a better opener..

[Tehstool]

It could possibly be that the rppm hadn't fully reset.. I usually pull boss right away after trash or I see the same result in between quick pulls.. But man timing that shit with 380ms is hard..

But I was wondering the same thing Draco mentioned.. Does stampede work like normal pets and not proc trinkets ? Cuz if that's true, wouldn't it be best to pre-pot, and open with stampede (to get that global out of the way) and then follow up with your opener starting from SrS ? This way your trinkets won't proc until after you srs so it's the same timing just shifting stampede before srs and adding an AS inplace of it..
DB I guess does proc JuJu so that would throw the timing off.. but if stampede works that way then that would be a better opener..

I believe stampede doesn't proc trinkets. So that way should be better because you are freeing up a GCD during BW and getting more uptime on trinkets with stampede.

[Perrito]

Double bestial wrath from readiness lasts for 20 seconds. I'm not sure what you are getting at here.

you counting the gcds on it? cause is off gcd. each buff last 8 sec so 8+8=16.

he is trying to fit in 1 KC into last 2 sec of renakatis, still he lose dps by fiting non damaging shots into bw. so i dont see the gain, heck even opening with db and stampede seems far better.

claiming there is no better opener also wich is why i dont see his point.

[Tehstool]

you counting the gcds on it? cause is off gcd. each buff last 8 sec so 8+8=16.

he is trying to fit in 1 KC into last 2 sec of renakatis, still he lose dps by fiting non damaging shots into bw. so i dont see the gain, heck even opening with db and stampede seems far better.

claiming there is no better opener also wich is why i dont see his point.

Bestial wrath lasts for 10 seconds. Not 8.

[D R E A D E D]

you counting the gcds on it? cause is off gcd. each buff last 8 sec so 8+8=16.

he is trying to fit in 1 KC into last 2 sec of renakatis, still he lose dps by fiting non damaging shots into bw. so i dont see the gain, heck even opening with db and stampede seems far better.

claiming there is no better opener also wich is why i dont see his point.

it's not about having those "non-damaging shots" into BW, it's about getting them out within Renataki's/Juju + prepot

having the 5 KCs inside BW + R/BW WHILE inside the Renataki's/Juju + prepot is why there is no better opener

[Sre]

Ok pretty sweet that you can fit all 5 KCs in the 20s Renataki proc window, but its so counter intuitive for me to cast a CS right after a BW as you did on your 2nd BW. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is to 1. Update your SS ticks due to higher Renataki stacks and 2. Chance to proc 2pc which on paper sounds good and should lead to higher dps. I raid with 200ms so its really pretty tight on my end, prob have to sacrifice an AS somewhere to fit the last KC in. Wonder if its worth it. For now I have to work on cutting the bad habit of hard casting SS as opposed to CS >2s before SS drops and not worry too much about focus capping.

You'll probably have to sacrifice an AS before your 2nd BW while your KC is on CD after KC #3 with your MS. I've had to do it before if my latency was pretty crappy otherwise you'll miss it by a second or less.

it's not about having those "non-damaging shots" into BW, it's about getting them out within Renataki's/Juju + prepot

having the 5 KCs inside BW + R/BW WHILE inside the Renataki's/Juju + prepot is why there is no better opener

This is correct, it's pretty obvious if you're raiding with another Hunter who was able to squeeze in the 5 KC's and who wasn't, barring RNG of course.