PvE Feral in 5.4

[Refridge]

What does Feral look like in 5.4? As a heroic raider I'm looking to diversify the roster of toons that are raid ready approaching the new tier.
All I can find about feral changes thus far are people QQ'ing about instant Cyclone.

Feral currently does not put out competitive DPS, at least not compared to my main, Enhancement Shammy, or a few alternatives. (I have a 505 rogue, 505 ww monk, just trying to decide what to gear.)

Does Feral look to pull competitive DPS in 5.4?
ANSWER ME OP PVE KITTIES OF THE WORLD!

[Pool of the Dead]

http://simulationcraft.org/530/Raid_T15H.html

As you can see, the only Melee Specs currently ahead of Feral are ENH and WW which you already play, and only Mages as casters.

[Refridge]

That's patchwerk home slice, and that means soooo little. Seeing as I know very little about Feral, a la, gap closing, mobility, raid utility (all of which factor into real raid dps) where does feral stand?

but i do appreciate the response!

[Kraineth]

Feral currently does not put out competitive DPS, at least not compared to my main, Enhancement Shammy, or a few alternatives. (I have a 505 rogue, 505 ww monk, just trying to decide what to gear.)

Wat.... I can assure you that feral brings competitive dps. The whole "feral is a weak dps to bring" is such an annoying stigma to deal with on a daily basis. So im not going to bother trying to prove that a good feral can beat anyone on meters if they actually know how to play. On to your other "factors"

Mobility/gap closing: Charge, run speed,Blink Dash, Raid-wide dash. Feral is hands down the most mobile spec in the game. Maybe beaten by WW in a few spots. But this entire xpac i have not once said "man i wish i was a WW monk right now"

Raid Utiliy: Raid-wide dash, Tranq, on demand heals, plenty of stuns, slows, roots, knock-back

And on top of this, feral is easily one of, if not the most survivable dps specs in the game. 3 survival cooldowns on top of dispersion/bubble with symbiosis, great self heals, and +20% healing taken. If you raid heroic like you say you do, you can appreciate how broken bubble/dispersion and the ability to soak certain mechanics is. Like bubbling fire debuff stacks on Iron Qon, or being able to solo-soak back to back static shock on Lei Shen. A healthy amount of our heroic mode strats are based around things that I bring to the table.

Even when solo-tanking a heroic boss, if the tank goes down 9/10 times the boss turns to me. Pop Shield wall/bearform and whatever else I happen to have up. And instantly NS+Brez the tank, Wipe averted. Has gotten my guild plenty of kills over the years. There are exactly 0 other classes that can pull that off.

[Macor]

Feral atm is even above average what it was past years tbh averaging 130k/fight on mostly lfr geared kitty(stoped raiding around new year) is more than fine. Only thing i do miss a LOT is berserk glyph /durration since 15secs with globals we have gimps my opener(DoC) compared to rogue for ex by far but constant dmg output is rly nice. And with final tier as usual we go even higher coz of ammount of secondary stats and crit reaching relative high ammounts(50%crit is kinda GG). If you played feral past few years like many ppl on this forums did you would know that feral is weak on start of expansion-average in middle and great in last tier was like that since wotlk. Good kitty will mostly beat on metters any average player of other class and be on par with good players of most classes. In this expansion from start gap between feral and other classes is quite small.
So if you like playstyle of feral cat stick to it if not go frost mage and gg since thats class/spec Devs like the most.

[Themessiah]

It really depends on the fight. Certain fights, like Horridon HC really don't suit a feral druid. Target switching and low health mobs do not favour hard hitting long lasting dots, which take energy to get up (and aren't instant like a warlocks). Other fights like Lei Shen HC and Ra-den really allow ferals to shine: The gap closing we have for Lei Shen is insane, and one of the reasons our dps is usually high on that fight (the other is that we have an excellent execute which is easy to keep up). Again, fights like Ra-den allow ferals to shine since it's more or less a "nuke the boss" kind of fight, allowing ferals to really focus on getting their "rotation" spot on; and a spot on rotation is high dps.

At the moment ferals in 5.4 have undergone a slight nerf, having lost natures swiftness: This results the opening rotation will having been somewhat nerfed: it may take longer to get up super buffed dots (but the new 4 set should help with this). Moreover, casting things like the instant battle resurrects will have an impact on our overall dps, albeit small. Lastly, our healing has been somewhat toned down.

Either way, our utility still remains excellent. I suspect that the real reason I think many ferals do not perform as well as they might otherwise do is that it's the hardest spec in the game; probably by a long shot. Bliz just reverted a talent change that would have made the spec easier to play. If you're looking for an easy time with high numbers, then the feral learning curve (especially with Dream of Cenarius) will likely put you off.

[Deleted]

In the end of the day it's down to the player, I would say that Feral is amoung the strongest melee specs but Rouges and Warriors are stronger if you look at the portion of raid utility they bring and the potentional dps they'r able to bring.

For what you can do as Kraineth mentioned the sky is the limit. We do competetive DPS imo but you'r required to know exactly what you are doing.

[Deleted]

Assuming you have a decent grasp of the spec, feral really does get more forgiving the more gear you have. Once you get up towards BiS you can afford to play slightly more recklessly because your gear will, in most circumstances, allow you to squeeze out a bit more dps where with lower gear you might need to be more conservative.

It all really depends on how much you want to kick ass on your alt imo. Unless you're willing to get as good gear as you can and put as much effort in as you would your main I don't think you'd be reaching the point where feral becomes really fun and you may as well have a lot of fun playing something else while at the same time being as useful to a raid.

P.S. Once you get RoR you will instantly find feral hilariously fun when RNG is in your favour.

[Dysheki]

Feral currently does not put out competitive DPS

Yes it does.

[Skadovsk]

They are very weak at target switching even if done right, and when the fight calls for unpredictable switched they're pretty bad.
Then add zero burst and even less on opener by 5.4 as DoC, melee and very low raid utility makes for a spec you do not want on your roster, the only reason to ever bring a feral would be if the player skill is high.

I mean I cannot think of any reason to bring any melee over a mage or a godlock except for enhance and rogues which have insane burst, smokebomb, op healing rain with that conductivity talent etc which are way more powerful than a 1 tranq per fight without having them stop dps.

But if you're a feral/tank OS, then that's another story, always good to have a spec that can tank and dps with minimal gear difference, 2 birds 1 stone kind of thing.
But monks can do that and better so meh.

[Themessiah]

They are very weak at target switching even if done right, and when the fight calls for unpredictable switched they're pretty bad.
Then add zero burst and even less on opener by 5.4 as DoC, melee and very low raid utility makes for a spec you do not want on your roster, the only reason to ever bring a feral would be if the player skill is high.

I mean I cannot think of any reason to bring any melee over a mage or a godlock except for enhance and rogues which have insane burst, smokebomb, op healing rain with that conductivity talent etc which are way more powerful than a 1 tranq per fight without having them stop dps.

But if you're a feral/tank OS, then that's another story, always good to have a spec that can tank and dps with minimal gear difference, 2 birds 1 stone kind of thing.
But monks can do that and better so meh.

Feral burst outside of berserk is low. Ferals do have excellent consistent dps however. As for utility, it depends. We have immunities, lots of damage reductions, raid wide healing, and with the right macros, extra tank healing with PS. I do think an unskilled feral is probably more of a drag than a boost however.

[Refridge]

Thank you all for your responses, I, foolishly, didnt take into consideration roar and the OP brez. Kitty tranq is, lets be honest, weaksauce. I had ideas about feral mobility, but I pretended I didnt for the sake of hearing it directly from people who did. Now, I have a WW monk that could presently do normals, and with the importance of mechanic breaking:
Soaking Red Balls on Ra-Den, Solo soaking Static Shock on Lei Shen, Soaking Mutagenic Pathogen, Having multiple STRONG CD's for Dark Animus.
WW in my opinion is better than even a Rogue for breaking mechanics, there are more examples this tier, and historically there are dozens of examples of where a cloak (and I'm using the term Generally here) is very, very useful.
So assuming a WW monk and a feral druid pull the same dps, is roar+rebirth worth taking a feral over a ww?
My intention is not to put down anyone's class, or anything like that. As an enhancement shaman I know what fights I'm good for, and what fights I'm not good for, It's our ability to recognize our own shortcomings that can make us better players, so if you find that my ignorance of Feral insults you, please dont be insulted. Thanks again for the help.

[Skadovsk]

Thank you all for your responses, I, foolishly, didnt take into consideration roar and the OP brez. Kitty tranq is, lets be honest, weaksauce. I had ideas about feral mobility, but I pretended I didnt for the sake of hearing it directly from people who did. Now, I have a WW monk that could presently do normals, and with the importance of mechanic breaking:
Soaking Red Balls on Ra-Den, Solo soaking Static Shock on Lei Shen, Soaking Mutagenic Pathogen, Having multiple STRONG CD's for Dark Animus.
WW in my opinion is better than even a Rogue for breaking mechanics, there are more examples this tier, and historically there are dozens of examples of where a cloak (and I'm using the term Generally here) is very, very useful.
So assuming a WW monk and a feral druid pull the same dps, is roar+rebirth worth taking a feral over a ww?
My intention is not to put down anyone's class, or anything like that. As an enhancement shaman I know what fights I'm good for, and what fights I'm not good for, It's our ability to recognize our own shortcomings that can make us better players, so if you find that my ignorance of Feral insults you, please dont be insulted. Thanks again for the help.

I'm only 10/13 25 heroic and so far roar has been useless, its only good for iron quon after tornadoes and to dispel the slow attack speed/movement from the frozen lines from everyone if we get unlucky or bad.
Used it on ji-kun a bit during down draft but lately people are too spread out and they can handle it with their own sprints or whatever.

The speed bonus is just way too small and every class has a sprint by now, spell was designed for cata.
Instant b res is nice on a tank/heals, but you don't always have predatory just waiting to be used at the right moment and on 5.4 bye NS.
Strength of bres by itself depends on your raid.

and yeah ferals only have dispersion (if you have a priest) to soak stuff, survival instincts is not good enough to soak the strong stuff like static shocks alone and they still both 3 min, while diffuse magic is only 1.3 min.

The thing about WW tho, they depend on rune A LOT
and nobody knows if rune will get nerfed on 5.4, so yeah.

[Deleted]

http://simulationcraft.org/530/Raid_T15H.html

As you can see, the only Melee Specs currently ahead of Feral are ENH and WW which you already play, and only Mages as casters.

Not only is simc data not a way to judge how much dps a class will do in a raid, it's also not a way people judge what classes take to a raid.

"Bring the player, not the class"

[Nishida]

SimC has been wrong and providing useless data for quite some time for certain classes. Going by an incorrectly displayed software to "improve upon" is just wrong.

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Also, you're basing everything off of FOTM classes / who does the "BEST" dps amongst the lv90 toons you have? Which is the wrong way to go about it.

Pick a toon, learn it and improve upon it. Every class has its benefits and strengths.

[Dysheki]

Feral tranq is weak? Yeah, without HotW. (and you can still do acceptable damage with HotW, don't worry)

Solo soaking static shock - symbiosis a priest.

Mutagenic Pathogen? You mean Volatile Pathogen? Every class can handle that just fine - use a defensive (SI works perfectly fine). Shouldn't really be an issue for anyone.

Multiple strong CDs for Animus? CDs for what? I typically have some kind of personal defensive up (SI/barkskin/disperse/etc) for the Interrupting Jolt and even if I don't I almost always have a PS up to use an instant cast Healing Touch immediately after it goes out. If you mean raid cooldowns the only chance Tranq would be effective is if you symbiosis a paladin and use it in conjunction with HotW and bubble. That is a feral's downfall if that's what you're asking: their raid cooldown requires a standstill and isn't more health or an absorb - it's reactionary healing. But it can be extremely good healing. I healed during a heroic Kazra'jin empower with HotW and used a tranq and blanketed the raid with rejuv. It was like we had an extra healer for the 30 seconds I was needed.

Side note for saying roar is useless - it's good for Qon and it's amazing for Lei Shen to get to quadrants. It's also useful on and off for random other reasons when people need to get places asap but not on a timed basis. Glyphing it also quadruples the range.

You can't compare a rogue to any melee class. They have an on demand 30% damage reduction ability (more if it's an AoE effect). They are without a doubt the masters of survivability in raids and it's honestly a little silly. But there is no reason to not take a feral druid to a raid unless you already have 1 in a 10 man or 2-3 in a 25. There's no reason not to take any spec, to be honest. Class balance is at an all time high in terms of 'bring the player not the class'. In other words play what you like.

(imo) People worry too much about what would be the easiest or cheesiest and don't worry about what they have fun doing. I love feral playstyle and that's the only reason I have raided for as long as I have. You may not. To each their own. /shrug

[Nishida]

Exactly what I was getting at - people seem to want to be #1 in all scenario's and forget about the "fun" aspect, or the challenging part of raiding.

[Refridge]

This will be the last time I thank everyone for their input, this information has been very useful to me, and I thank you all. (henceforth all thanks are implied!)
I am coming from the following standpoint: Whats the best class to bring into a raid blindly! Of my listed choices, imho, it'd be my enhancement shaman, Between the DPS I can presently pull and Ancestral Guidance, I am pretty op right now. But realistically, I will be nerfed eventually, and if blizz follows its modus operandi, Ill be nerfed to shit. I'll always love my shaman, it'll always be my baby, but if i want to be a competitive raider, then I have to have a sidebar of toons which I can swap to, should the occasion arise.
To address the cooldown thingy i brought up. The better your cooldowns, and the better you can use them, the less healing healers have to do. By immuning the vast najority of dmg heroic volatile pathogen puts out, you can allow your healers to focus on your tanks during primordius, which has the potential to be a spiky dmg fight, for tanks. That was the gist of that idea.

- - - Updated - - -

This will be the last time I thank everyone for their input, this information has been very useful to me, and I thank you all. (henceforth all thanks are implied!)
I am coming from the following standpoint: Whats the best class to bring into a raid blindly! Of my listed choices, imho, it'd be my enhancement shaman, Between the DPS I can presently pull and Ancestral Guidance, I am pretty op right now. But realistically, I will be nerfed eventually, and if blizz follows its modus operandi, Ill be nerfed to shit. I'll always love my shaman, it'll always be my baby, but if i want to be a competitive raider, then I have to have a sidebar of toons which I can swap to, should the occasion arise.
To address the cooldown thingy i brought up. The better your cooldowns, and the better you can use them, the less healing healers have to do. By immuning the vast najority of dmg heroic volatile pathogen puts out, you can allow your healers to focus on your tanks during primordius, which has the potential to be a spiky dmg fight, for tanks. That was the gist of that idea.

This all said, you've all help me to recognize the potential of feral in a competitive raid environment, so thanks!

[Themessiah]

I'm only 10/13 25 heroic and so far roar has been useless, its only good for iron quon after tornadoes and to dispel the slow attack speed/movement from the frozen lines from everyone if we get unlucky or bad.
Used it on ji-kun a bit during down draft but lately people are too spread out and they can handle it with their own sprints or whatever.

For the record, I'm 13/13 hc 25 :P And any time someone wouldn't otherwise get to where they need to be in time, Stampeding roar is a save: and most fights have somewhere you need to be at a fixed point.

[Tinderhoof]

I'm only 10/13 25 heroic and so far roar has been useless, its only good for iron quon after tornadoes and to dispel the slow attack speed/movement from the frozen lines from everyone if we get unlucky or bad.
Used it on ji-kun a bit during down draft but lately people are too spread out and they can handle it with their own sprints or whatever.

The thing about WW tho, they depend on rune A LOT
and nobody knows if rune will get nerfed on 5.4, so yeah.

Stampeding Roar has only been useless because you didn't use it.

Also GC has alluded in Tweets that Rune will not be changed in 5.4. Unless it breaks PVP they don't make changes to PVE trinkets until an expac because they don't want to screw folks who won't have a trinket to replace the one nerfed.