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  1. #41
    Brewmaster Naztrak's Avatar
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    Way, way more complicated than any moba game

  2. #42
    SC1 had new strategies coming out until all the tornies died out (yes it was slower but it did happen)

  3. #43
    Not sure where I stand on this but the end of this thread on AJ is very relevant.

    Read the posts by Lolflay and Thaya:

    arenajunkies.com/topic/237243-new-shado-pan-arena-and-blades-edge-changes/page__st__100

    I would say that to me it feels like wow has a high skill floor but a low skill cap. A good game or even sport should be easy to learn and difficult to master but it kind of seems like wow has gotten that backwards.

    I also get the impression from wow's game mechanics that if given enough time any average person could get very good at arena, maybe not R1 but at least gladiator level, and that certainly isn't the case with other games.

    The horrendous balance also makes this debate a lot more difficult to argue about. It's not that complicated to play whatever is FOTM and beat people with it.

    I also strongly disagree with the statement that wow requires a lot of manual dexterity because you need to press many different keybinds. The GCD in wow gives you time to pause between actions and although it may seem like there are a lot of different buttons to press there just isn't a very high level of fluid interaction between the results of those button presses compared to say a fighting game whose manual dexterity required is on a whole different planet. In fact, I would say that wow requires the least manual dexterity of any competitive game (which wow is not) except maybe the MOBAS.
    Last edited by Monksrus; 2013-07-04 at 01:48 PM.

  4. #44
    They need to do something about ability bloat. Seeing people with 40 keybinds or more for PvP is just stupid. You shouldnt be forced to use 40+ keybinds in a video game. Someone please tell me another game out there where you have to use that much stuff just to be good? Last time I looked in the mirror I wasnt an octopus.

  5. #45
    Elemental Lord Arbs's Avatar
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    I would say any game is more difficult than LoL or Any MMO is more skilled based than a MOBA in general.
    I'm neither Pro or Anti Flying, I just have a different opinion on the matter.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by AD Arbsbear View Post
    Any MMO is more skilled based than a MOBA in general.
    More like just WoW. In Rift I use at most 20 keybinds and do just fine in PvP on my healers. In GW2 I use even less. The problem with barrier to entry for WoW pvp isnt the gear. Its the fact you have to have a gaming keyboard, mouse, and be comfortable using 40+ keybinds. Eventually you will have the gear in WoW because its only a grind. Some people will never learn to use a ton of keybinds and I dont see why they should be punished.

  7. #47
    Bloodsail Admiral nerdjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dabrix32 View Post
    They need to do something about ability bloat. Seeing people with 40 keybinds or more for PvP is just stupid. You shouldnt be forced to use 40+ keybinds in a video game. Someone please tell me another game out there where you have to use that much stuff just to be good? Last time I looked in the mirror I wasnt an octopus.
    40 is even on the low end. I'm using about 65 on the two classes I've been playing, and that's down from nearly 100 when I tried @arena1-3 instead of just focus. It isn't physically demanding. The GCD system covers for a lot of slowness and suboptimal binds. I think it's just a problem in terms of the high entry barrier--I can imagine it's a very daunting task for a new player to attempt figuring out how to bind their entire spellbook (hence the popularity of the MMO mouse rat).

    I'm not opposed to removing abilities, but I'm not sure that it should be done just for simplicity's sake. I'd be all for removing a bunch of cc and major defensive/offensive cooldowns, but it's because I think the abilities are of poor design in the first place. Accessibility is great, but has to be weighed carefully. I'd rather the game be engaging and fun than more accessible.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by asb View Post
    I'd rather the game be engaging and fun than more accessible.
    why cant it be both? GW2 pvp is very fun. Its also 100% accessible since everyone gets a max level character with gear when they go to the pvp entrance zone. Also even with weapon swapping you will use 15 abilities at most. I think 20 is a perfect number. Its enough to give you some diversity but doesnt overwhelm you. I mean most of the stuff on people's hotbars really is just fluff and at most they only spam 5-6 major skills per fight. Everything else is purely situational which means removing all of it takes away the need for it.

  9. #49
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebi View Post
    That's 65 without counting moving keybinds. and with those that's 69 but you're missing 15 more but yeah you took effort to write all these down so I'll just stop right there with keybinds but this?
    This argument that moving keys don't count in MMO's has always bothered me, I've never subscribed to it. We counted them for FPS - because most of what we do in MMO's and FPS is move around - more than any other key on the keyboard - AWSD get the most use. If we wanted to just discount the four most used keys on the keyboard for MMO's / FPS - we should do the same to LoL - which is now the game of pressing D+F once each, every 3 minutes


    "Is it that shadowpriests shouldn't bind their heals?"
    Did I say that? Of course it's good to bind it look I even said "Even if you use 123 dispell shield pom renew"
    The use of "Even if" implied to me that those aren't legitimate keybinds, as though you are allowing an exception for something controversial.


    "pretty much any good melee player is going to use a backpedal rather than spin their camera away"
    Any good melee player? Do you see anyone at high raitings backpedel? In BC/Wrath yeah but now no, backpedeling is awful it's same as debuffing yourself with a snare.
    You aren't supposed to use it for trying to go places, in which case you obviously strafe away - just because it isn't as effective as the W key doesn't mean it's useless.
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  10. #50
    Epic! Knadra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toxigen View Post
    WoW is definitely more complicated on an individual level.

    From a team strategy perspective (at the professional level), LoL takes a bit more. The effort on strong team composition and the picks/bans process makes it so.
    True but WoW tournaments are trying to incorporate a banning system so that might add a bit in the team composition category for WoW.

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  11. #51
    "pretty much any good melee player is going to use a backpedal rather than spin their camera away"

    Mind answering 1 top rated player who's using back pedeling keybind since you already mentioned it or you gonna keep avoiding the answer?

    So it's 69 keybinds you're missing 14 more I'm really curious where are those 14 unless you count opening guild tab and other random stuff as keybinds.

    C3 - cancelaura Levitate+Slow Fall+Parachute
    C4 - cancelaura Dispersion
    C5 - cancelaura Blessing of Protection

    Why don't you combine those into 1 I don't see any point unless you wanted to make up keybinds to catch up with 83

    here are mine for a DK
    -this is macro
    /cancelaura hand of Protection
    /cancelaura ice block
    /cancelaura divine shield
    /cancelaura Conversion
    /cancelaura Lichborne

    There you go a tip for you
    Last edited by Rebi; 2013-07-04 at 06:34 PM.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by gtfo_my_internets View Post
    people who say league is more complex because of champ numbers are out of their mind or have not played wow at any competitive level.
    I have played WoW at gladiator range and won and lost against more than my fair share of gladiators for more than just one overpowered season and am making the argument that they are much more similar. League's ladder, meanwhile, I never even bothered with since it takes too long to play if you don't want to fork over cash, imo, but you can still get the full idea in both games either way at a low "rating."
    Quote Originally Posted by Monksrus View Post
    This was a reasonable argument to support the opposite of most people in the thread, with even better "credentials." I found the first person mentioned and their post the more interesting.
    Last edited by Confirm Deny; 2013-07-04 at 06:48 PM.
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  13. #53
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    each game has it own complexities to it and definitely has its own metas. i dont think you can honestly say one is more complicated than the other. they are two entirely different genres and play two entirely different ways.

    sure, WoW has an enormous amount of classes and abilities but LoL has a fair share of champions and certainly enough different ways you can build a champion that i think it counteracts all the different spells/abilities offered from WoW.

    in the end im going to go out on a limb and say that neither is more complicated than the other. rather each have their own playstyles and a seasoned gamer can quite easily pick up on either game. even a new gamer i think will be able to pick up on either game when they spend enough time learning how shit works.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    I play both of them pretty well, I'm also a former semi-pro FPS player, and I used to compete in a lot of the LAN RTS tourneys in my region (I'd never win because my RL BF / former roommate is strictly an RTS player, and a world class one - but with his tutelage I often came 2nd). So I like to think I have a pretty good understanding of high end competition in a huge variety of competitive video gaming. Let me break down how I see it down into two components, the physical act - and the mental game:

    Physical:

    WoW - it requires some of the highest manual dexterity of all of them, playing my spriest (83 keybinds) and warlock (68 keybinds) in high end pvp is comparable to playing a piano concerto - it's ludicrous how many abilities we juggle, macros and targetting keys we cycle through: in terms of manual dexterity the only thing close is FPS - and that's mouse-twitch, not key control.

    FPS - this is the extremity of mouse-twitch targetting, it requires only a handful of keys (AWSD, Q, E, Z, X, C, V, 1, 2, 3, 4 ,5 - for even the most complex FPS, many are simpler, so 15 keys at the most) - the emphasis on any FPS is more on your mouse control, it juxtaposes very rapid twitch with precise target acquisition, and heavily penalizes failure of any kind relating to them (by contrast, I don't have to click anything with my mouse in WoW - I just hold right mouse the whole time, and use it to pan around and view the battle).

    RTS - this frequently has higher keybinds than FPS, and makes greater usage of them - but still pales next to the keybinding concertos of WoW - competitive RTS usually involves 20 to 30 keybinds at the very most, which puts it at like a third to a quarter that of my Spriest. RTS does however make greater use of the mouse than WoW, so it's more of a balance between MMO/FPS competition, at least physically.

    MOBA - LoL has 4 keybinds for any character, in terms of manual dexterity in your left hand, it's the simplest of them all by a mile. LoL makes more use of the mouse than I do in WoW, but it's simply nothing compared to what it takes to compete in FPS, or even what it requires to have a high APM in any RTS (a lot of map scanning and targeting via mouseclicks). In terms of the physicality of the contest, MOBA's, and LoL in particular - is trivial in complexity when compared to any other modern competitive genre.


    The mental competition:

    WoW - In WoW Arenas, a Lot is going on - and there is never any time for reprieve for strategy - it would be akin to an FPS where 3v3 people are in a firefight that doesn't end for 15 minutes, while also trying to do objectives (but being shot and having to cover/shoot the whole time). Or it would be like playing Starcraft or Dawn of War while being constantly engaged in a 3v3 battle, and having to manage your macro without ever being able to disengage your fronts temporarily to spend resources or juggle your resources/upgrade chains. In this sense, WoW is extremely complex mentally - people hate on GladiatorLoSSa - but just listen to how much stuff it's calling, and that's just the enemy teams cooldowns, it's not telling you their strategies or common tricks (interrupts, stuns, CCs, etc), it's not telling you any of the same stuff for your own team. At very high rating, no comp is faceroll - it might be straightforward to win it, but to get to very high ratings - you put the same level of thought into it whether you're playing Thugcleave or RPS (you just don't necessarily need to change your course of action as Thugcleave as often, but you have to be thinking about it constantly). The sheer amount of simultaneous information we need to process to understand WoW mentally, is very very high - but the strategy of it probably suffers for that, WoW is therefore tactically complex - but lacks strategic (long-term) plays, at least in modern PvP - in TBC strategies could play out over a 40 minute match, while tactics were almost immaterial.

    FPS - High end FPS is interesting in that it is actually an extremely strategic game, with FPS economy systems (Quake, Counter-strikes), as well as establishing false predictability in your behaviour - and then changing it once you believe the enemy expects it (ie. Long A, Long A, Split B (something completely different), Fake Long A - when they expect it to be the same Long A), or in Quake the strategy of map control was often a bigger determining factor than the twitch itself (at least between top end players, where twitch varies - but not very significantly). FPS mixes this long-term strategy, with a tactical complexity that parallels WoW's - but what's nice about FPS is it gives you lots of non-firefight time to discuss your strategy, and then drops you into a firefight, and then gives you more time for strategics - WoW expects you to do both simultaneously, albeit to a potentially less tactically complex degree.

    RTS - RTS obviously has a greater emphasis on strategy, it's important in RTS to be able to juggle your macro (strategy) and micro (tactics) fluidly, but it goes at a much slower pace than FPS or RTS - this is both positive and negative in terms of overall complexity. Because RTS generally give you less tactically complex gameplay than WoW or FPS, it appears simpler - but because you have more time to reflect, the head game of competing and deceptive strategic play becomes increasingly important, and robust as a result. RTS share with WoW a more complex knowledge base than FPS, and to a small degree to MOBA's as well - since in RTS you need to know the ratios for how many of each type of unit win versus each other time, depending on the upgrades between them all - while in WoW you need to know all the abilities of all the classes to have any predictive power needed to win at high rating.

    MOBA - LoL competition is mentally complex in terms of very fast paced tactics between 6-10 toons simultaneously, with everything occurring in split seconds - this sounds complex - compared to WoW - the GCD is lower in LoL and therefore more things appear to happen in the same timeframe, but what's different is that each of those 6-10 toons only has 4 abilities, some have even less - so the mental arithimetic of LoL is in some ways faster than WoW or RTS, but it's also much simpler to predict because there are fewer variables (3-4 abilities per toon, versus 20-50 abilities per toon in WoW). In LoL, you can size up both teams in the lane if you see all who are present - and a good player has a pretty solid idea of how the engagement will go down before the first poke is fired. This leads to the positional jousting you see in LoL a lot - because all of them are able to predict the outcome more or less if they engaged at any given moment/position, so they shuffle around until they have an advantage - and then they all leap essentially simultaneously, with little or no communication.



    So, not to be mean to LoL (or MOBA's in general, but LoL is my favourite MOBA anyway) - but the real strength that LoL has compared to MMO's, FPS or RTS - is that pretty much *anybody* can watch a LoL match and have a pretty reasonable understanding of what's going on: that's not a bad thing, it's the best thing for getting competitive gaming to a wider audience - LoL will accomplish that long before an FPS, MMO or RTS does. By contrast, it takes 2200+ experience in WoW specifically (no other MMO will do) to have even a modicum of understanding of who is winning a Rank 1 vs Rank 1 WoW match, if you are a Rank 1 equivalent Rift or SWTOR player - you probably have no idea who is winning in WoW.

    I have no idea who is winning in top end RTS, none - and I used to podium in RTS LAN's all the time. FPS appears easy to follow - but all lay-people see is the tactics - someone got shot, someone made a good shot - the strategy of it is completely lost on anyone who isn't Cal-M+ (thinking of CS1.6, but pick your equivalent) - people see Fatal1ty hop around with ~flawless twitch accuracy, but what they don't see is that everytime he wins, it's not a matter of twitch - but dominating strategic points and making his opponents come to him.

    So to answer your question, LoL is less complex both physically and mentally than WoW(MMO's in general), RTS, or FPS - it's true - but it's also not a bad thing. LoL's simplicity is what makes it accessible - and that it can achieve the level of complexity that it does while being so physically and mentally simple means that it is elegant. If we said that LoL is mentally 70% as complex as WoW or something (the percent is arbitrary), what's beautiful about it is that I only need to know ~300-400 abilities to fully understand any encounter in LoL - but in WoW I need to know ~600-1000 - the second-order interactions of say, Ezrael's teleport to escape, versus Katarina's teleport to re-engage is much simpler than knowing that a Priest's Fear can be countered a dozen ways by an unholy death knight, but only a few by a feral druid - once the gap is opening, there is again a dozen ways to close it or prevent it from being closed. WoW is messy and therefore overly complex, it is definitely more complex - but complexity isn't the sole measure of whether a game is good or not.


    Edit: ...in my head I was on like paragraph 3 or 4, how did this get so huge O.O
    Old school RTSes like SC:BW,SC2 or even WC3 require you to be faster whether it's mentally or physically than WoW or LoL. I am not so sure that RTS is simpler than WoW or FPS tactic wise. There are shit tons of tactics in Starcraft for you to perform. Macro and Micro are also not strategy and tactic in RTS term. Macro refers to an ability to mass produce unit. Micro refers an ability to control unit individually and on small scale. Strategy=your plan overall. Tactic is part of strategy which mean executing cute things to gain small or large advantage.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    LOL = what people play when they aren't good at SC2.

    Replace LOL with whatever moba, SC2 with any RTS (if they exist).
    MOBA is appealing to the mass because of dumbed down RTS gameplay. What make LOL a success is what "hardcore" wow players are against : casualisation of games.
    Most of modern RTSes are not hard at least mechanic wise.

  15. #55
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebi View Post
    "pretty much any good melee player is going to use a backpedal rather than spin their camera away"

    Mind answering 1 top rated player who's using back pedeling keybind since you already mentioned it or you gonna keep avoiding the answer?
    Conal spells like Dragon's Breath and Cone of Cold are frequently backpedaled just before use to make the cone go in the right direction, since they otherwise risk spraying a little weird - I see good mages do that all the time. I already spoke about when spriests do it. Rogues and Ferals use it it lots because they have positional requirements, ranging from Shreds (less of an issue lately) to Evasion (backpedaling occasionally to keep a melee 'in front' of you - which can be problematic if they get too close: or just any time they want to make sure their dodge/parry is working.

    I think you're confused, backpedalling as a way of running away is obviously bad - it's like keyboard turning - it's just bizarre and nobody good does it. Unbinding your S key is different though, like everybody I'm pretty sure actually has a backpedal keybind, nobody uses it much - but we all need it sometimes - your confusing a common joke about trying to backpedal away out of range of a pursuer, versus being able to move in one of four cardinal directions.

    Here I googled it for you, here is a thread where Feoria - five time gladiator - 1 time rank 1 gladiator - says he uses backpedalling to bug out feral positional attacks. Note that he's not saying "I try to run 30 yards across arenas using my backpedal key" he says he uses it to step through and strafe out of Shred range, when rogues had positional attacks this was equally important - but even now it's Still important for avoiding parry range (particularly when killing plate melee, ~18% parry), or any of the other myriad reasons I listed.

    I'm at work so I don't want to watch hours of Reckful streams just to find you some visual evidence, but (please brace your brain cavity) Reckful backpedals sometimes, he doesn't jog backward - but he will step backward briefly if strafing back-right->back-left is inconvienent for staying behind his target. He also mentioned it explicitly I think a few months back during a tournament. Link me the stream of some high rated rogues/ferals (in particular, but I suspect it applies to all melee, if not all players) - and we can make some popcorn and diligently watch their feet for hours until they take a step backward (or not).


    So it's 69 keybinds you're missing 14 more I'm really curious where are those 14 unless you count opening guild tab and other random stuff as keybinds.

    C3 - cancelaura Levitate+Slow Fall+Parachute
    C4 - cancelaura Dispersion
    C5 - cancelaura Blessing of Protection

    Why don't you combine those into 1 I don't see any point unless you wanted to make up keybinds to catch up with 83

    here are mine forDK

    /cancelaura hand of Protection
    /cancelaura ice block
    /cancelaura divine shield
    /cancelaura Conversion
    /cancelaura Lichborne

    There you go a tip for you
    Those cancelauras actually do more than listed, but aren't really relevant to PvP - for example my cancel aura levitate is also my /extraactionbutton1 key, because usually I don't need to use it while also needing to levitate - but often you do want to maintain dispersion while doing those mechanics, so they can't be combined. Similarly there are situations where I don't want the threat drop of BoP, but do want dispersion - while pingponging dangerous adds- since this much rarer it is relegated to Ctrl+5. If I were making up keybinds, I probably would have gone all the way to 83, and not admitted and listed 70, no? Which ones exactly do you think are fake?

    Now, would you mind actually contributing to the topic - instead of some bizarre semantic attack on my keybinds as a route to prove... what exactly? I think I'm being pretty accommodating here to your questions, and you've yet to actually make any sort of comment relating to the topic.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2013-07-04 at 07:07 PM.
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  16. #56
    Mechagnome Televators's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebi View Post
    Do you see anyone at high raitings backpedel? In BC/Wrath yeah but now no, backpedeling is awful it's same as debuffing yourself with a snare.
    There is no reason why you should backpedel instead of right clicking your mouse and dragging it left or right. But calling it that any good melee player backpedels instead of using his mouse if enemy is too close is just wrong and incorrect and I don't know where did you get it from.
    Stupid ass argument debunked many times. No one should backpedal OFTEN, but of course it has uses.

  17. #57
    Moderator Nicola's Avatar
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    Both are complicated in their own way, but if I have to follow how a normal person would think, they'd say WoW is more complicated due having more abilities. LoL has what I'd say a disguised complexity. Playing a itself champion seems easy, but the complexity sits in the masteries, the runes, the item build and the inability to always play that same champion and role with the same comp.

    Another thing, if you only use 4 buttons in LoL, you are likely Bronze V material. You have 4 abilities, 2 summoner spells, 2 pings, up to 6 items, a modifier to level up, a modifier to smartcast/normal cast, b and possibly an attack button.
    Last edited by Nicola; 2013-07-04 at 07:37 PM.

  18. #58
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    wow pvp is infinately more complicated than lol... you cant compare 5 button game with complexity of spells in wow

  19. #59
    Once you learn to play both well.. Is there any more skill needed?

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Skit View Post
    Once you learn to play both well.. Is there any more skill needed?
    Yeah because the game require you to counter an adapted. You can never reach skilled capped in this game. Their is always some next level shit.
    Last edited by worsthitmanNa; 2013-07-04 at 09:07 PM.
    You're right except for 2 things.

    1. My name is spelt "God" not "Loucious-sama".
    2. I'm not a man, because man is inherently flawed. I am in fact a being so far beyond your comprehension that archaic constraints like flesh, blood, time and consequently, gender, have no meaning to me.

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