Sub target switching fixed

[Wow]

New build today and hemo is back on sv. This is great for pve and pvp however my question would be doesn't this make rupture not worth using in pve. As the original reason back in beta for not having hemo on sv was so we'd be forced to rupture.

Also 4 piece massively nerfed for sub

" Item - Rogue T16 4P Bonus: Killing Spree deals 10% more damage every time it strikes a target. Abilities against a target with Vendetta on it increase your mastery by 250 for 5 sec, stacking up to 20 times. Every time you backstab you have a 4% chance to replace your Backstab with Ambush that can be used regardless of Stealth."

Feels kind of lame to have two 100% chance to happen 4 pieces then a massive rng one they should just increase the number of backstabs needed.

Edit: Looks like its a glyph and they added many
http://www.wowhead.com/news=215959/5...lyphs-and-more
"Glyph of Hemorrhaging Veins: Your Saunguinary Veins ability now also increases damage done to targets affected by your Hemorrhage."
"Glyph of Sharpened Knives: Your Fan of Kinves also damages the armor of its victims, applying 1 application of the Weakened Armor effect to each target."
" Glyph of Recovery: While Recuperate is active, you receive 20% increased healing from other sources."
" Glyph of Redirect: Redirect no longer has a cooldown."

[Squirl]

Rupture still does more damage than Eviscerate as Subt, so it will be used in PvE. Most people will probably ignore Rupture in PvP again if we can get SV with Hemo.

Also, they totally killed that 4pc. I guess Subt won't be OP enough to be viable in raids now...

[Deleted]

I'm not seeing it in the notes?

[Kael]

4% random down from 25% automatic (proc every 4) is a HUUUUGE jump down. 1/6 power is a bit of a kick in the pants - so I could be wrong, but I doubt this is the return of Sub tier.

The SV to Hemo reversion finally occurring is a beautiful change most of us have been waiting for since 5.0. Hopefully it stays that way.

[Wow]

I'm not seeing it in the notes?

Wowhead has it mmo doesn't I dunno why could be bad datamining sigh.

[Carp The Fish]

Regardless of the Hemo-SV change, that 4P change is a little bit too big of a nerf, but (and I hate being the first one to say this) it would've been necessary at some point.
The Subtlety meta would've turned into "If you're not at 80% Find Weakness uptime, you're wrong" instead of "Maximize the damage you do during Find Weakness".
When I was testing as Subtlety on some of the boss fights this past PTR test, the T16 4P ALONE was putting me way ahead of the other similarly-geared Mut rogue on Paragons of the Klaxxi. Having that much Find Weakness uptime is enough to make it worth switching for PvE, but also having that power in PvP would be....a little too destructive.

Now the real question is, where's the happy medium between "Ambush procs every 4 Backstabs" and "Ambush procs once in a blue moon"?
I think the happy medium would be "35% chance" ala Dispatch, but that might just be me.

[Kael]

Wowhead has it mmo doesn't I dunno why could be bad datamining sigh.

Datamined notes went live here at 1:58, it's up. Sites just update at different times.

[Squirl]

Now the real question is, where's the happy medium between "Ambush procs every 4 Backstabs" and "Ambush procs once in a blue moon"?
I think the happy medium would be "35% chance" ala Dispatch, but that might just be me.

That would still proc looooooads and on average give better FW uptime than the previous iteration (essentially 25% proc). Remember that Mut costs 55 energy vs BS's 35 and that Subt also has better energy gen, so you would see Amb procs far more often than you see Dispatch procs.

A 4% proc is super low though. Something like 10-15% seems more reasonable, but it's not going to boost Subt enough to actually be worth using on most encounters.

[Wow]

Datamined notes went live here at 1:58, it's up. Sites just update at different times.

Well it looks like wowhead found the change and mmo didn't but who knows who is right...
Looking less likely to be a real change. Or theres something else causing it and its not baseline like say the pvp set causes it.

[Sesshou]

So combat's is still not worth using and sub's is now garbage. It would be different if ambush hit for some crazy damage, but it doesn't. And that cd reducing trinket is going to increase uptime quite a bit, so I can easily see you getting your 4% chance to go off and just end up clipping an existing FW to merely extend it a bit.

Also it looks like they did a round of numbers adjustments and rogues got nothing or at least I'm not seeing it. I dont see the hemo thing on mmo champ either.

[shadowboy]

4% seems too low. At 4%, the median number of backstabs to get a proc is 16.97, so basically on average you can expect to cast backstab 17 times to get the ambush. That means you'll get a non-ShD find weakness about every 30 seconds. That's not terrible (it's roughly double FW uptime compared to now), but not great, either.

[Deleted]

This is only the 2nd build, As it stands its a very nice change to SV working with hemo once again. but the 4set :/ Pretty sure they will change it again depending on how big / small 4% is.

[Kael]

Well it looks like wowhead found the change and mmo didn't but who knows who is right...
Looking less likely to be a real change. Or theres something else causing it and its not baseline like say the pvp set causes it.

Oh the hemo-SV is missing from the datamining, hm. The 4-set nerf is showing though :P

[Infective]

4% random down from 25% automatic (proc every 4) is a HUUUUGE jump down. 1/6 power is a bit of a kick in the pants - so I could be wrong, but I doubt this is the return of Sub tier.

The SV to Hemo reversion finally occurring is a beautiful change most of us have been waiting for since 5.0. Hopefully it stays that way.

Ughhh. Whoever is designing for our class should set everything they love on fire and then jump in. I seriously can't believe it's looking like we'll be stuck with Assassination for the entire expansion(minus the time people spent flirting with combat and t15 4pc before realizing a .5 global equals a terrible life). 4% is disgustingly low. 1 out of every 25 backstabs...this is probably just gonna be a nuisance that procs right before Shadow Dance comes off cd and forces us to delay SD and gain even less benefit.

[Wow]

Oh the hemo-SV is missing from the datamining, hm.

Yea it seems its glyph thats not listed for the class yet but clearly a rogue glyph. Very nice to possible get but terrible way to get it if they put it in this way.

[D3athsting]

Sub not viable for next tier too!! yay!!! 4% is just pathetic and to ppl saying that hemo will replace bstab for pve i have to say that 4pc will force us to use bstab with his hyper hated positional req, i MUST quote infective 4 pc is gonna be a bullcr*p bonus with a rng proc like fangs of the father who procced always when you couldn't land 5 evis in a row.

[Eazy]

SV + Hemo is going to make me smile in PvP. :-)

[Squirl]

SV + Hemo is going to make me smile in PvP. :-)

Except we have to drop one of our current glyphs to do it.

[Sesshou]

Except we have to drop one of our current glyphs to do it.

Which is fairly significant in pvp, but also fairly annoying in pve. I mean I've been playing combat and it really pisses me off that I absolutely have to use a glyph slot on AR... and this will pretty much be the same thing (I guess if it is literally tank and spank you wouldn't need it, but that is really, really rare now).

This is only the 2nd build, As it stands its a very nice change to SV working with hemo once again. but the 4set :/ Pretty sure they will change it again depending on how big / small 4% is.

That is really just a minor target swapping gain and a QoL change for PvE. You still want rupture up all the time. The real QoL issue is the positional requirements... the rupture / CT thing was just a minor thing and wouldn't prevent sub from being viable.

Sub not viable for next tier too!! yay!!! 4% is just pathetic and to ppl saying that hemo will replace bstab for pve i have to say that 4pc will force us to use bstab with his hyper hated positional req, i MUST quote infective 4 pc is gonna be a bullcr*p bonus with a rng proc like fangs of the father who procced always when you couldn't land 5 evis in a row.

Who is saying hemo will replace backstab even if you ignore the 4pc? All I saw was hemo is on SV with a glyph but that just means you would use it to keep up the hemo dot (which you should be now).