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  1. #1

    Mage vs. Hunter t16(Siege of Orgrimmar)

    Hello.

    Last few years i have been playing hunter as my main, but always keep my mage as nr.1 alt.

    Lately hunters are not best class to raid with, so i was thinking about rerolling mage?
    Already geared up mage(about same item level) + done legendary chain.

    I know rotation, nice Weak auras profile + having fun on both classes.
    Only downside - i only enjoy fire mage, not going to roll arcane/frost no matter what.

    After Combustion nerf for 60% + nice buff to hunter single target damage, i wonder if it is still worth rerolling?
    Or combustion nerf is going to break class?
    How do you think?

    Thanks.
    Last edited by Paladzins; 2013-08-28 at 06:19 AM.

  2. #2
    You shouldn't worry about swapping classes unless you aren't having fun or are in a top 10 world guild

  3. #3
    The nerf certainly hurt them, but hunters are still going to be plagued by their usual poor scaling of all non agi stats and pets this time around are proving to be even more cumbersome than in previous tiers. Don't foresee fire being a top spec to begin the tier, but likely will still have a few percent over hunters that will gain extra distance as ilvls go up. If you really enjoy hunter they aren't completely crippled as of this build and won't be trailing as far behind mages as they did in 5.3, but if you don't have much preference and just want the higher of the dps then roll mage.

  4. #4
    When i check worldoflogs or analyze raidbots i always think: maybe as a mage i can provide extra 20k dps to help my RG progress.
    Can't get rid of such thoughts.

    Yes, you are right - we are not top 10.. not even close: only 4/12 ToT.
    But i always min max, even switch races/professions if it improves my dps for 1-2% - somehow i enjoy doing my best even if we are not top going for realm first.
    ---

    They are equally geared + i have a blast on both classes, so still wondering.
    Is combustion going to brake mages? Or amazing crit scaling justifies the nerf?

    I m doing fine on my hunter as well - on single target fighting for top dps, even rank sometimes..
    but i m always huge step behind on aoe/multidot fights - can't do nothing about that.
    ---

    Thanks for answer anyway - even if it is not what i was expecting

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Paladzins View Post
    When i check worldoflogs or analyze raidbots i always think: maybe as a mage i can provide extra 20k dps to help my RG progress.
    Can't get rid of such thoughts.

    Yes, you are right - we are not top 10.. not even close: only 4/12 ToT.
    But i always min max, even switch races/professions if it improves my dps for 1-2% - somehow i enjoy doing my best even if we are not top going for realm first.
    ---

    They are equally geared + i have a blast on both classes, so still wondering.
    Is combustion going to brake mages? Or amazing crit scaling justifies the nerf?

    I m doing fine on my hunter as well - on single target fighting for top dps, even rank sometimes..
    but i m always huge step behind on aoe/multidot fights - can't do nothing about that.
    ---

    Thanks for answer anyway - even if it is not what i was expecting
    Last I checked, hunter AoE was pretty good. Mage AoE is average at best unless we get lucky. And that luck factor is being nerfed to the ground in 5.4.

    Mages also only really start zooming ahead at high gear levels, which being 4/12 tot, I'm guessing you are not approaching any time soon.

    Hunter dps is also much more consistent than mage dps (well fire mages at least).

    Hunters do have issues with scaling, but it's not so bad that you'd sit a hunter. Most top guilds still have hunter as part of their main team, I just took a quick look at the #1 10man team in the world and they have a hunter that was on their world first 10man Lei Shen and Ra-Den kill. So like... really, you shouldn't change class just because RNG will make mage dps top heavy.

  6. #6
    People are taking this combustion nerf too far. It's only ~10% nerf from live and with about 15% more crit, after crit mass, incoming in SoO fire is going to just fine.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenbud View Post
    People are taking this combustion nerf too far. It's only ~10% nerf from live and with about 15% more crit, after crit mass, incoming in SoO fire is going to just fine.
    Dont forget all that SP which makes Pyro crits that much more insane. Both Fire and Arcane will be viable in SoO barring any extreme nerfs between now and live; anyone who says otherwise is wrong.

    Vykina is singing fire's praises over on Method's forums so take that as you want as well

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenbud View Post
    People are taking this combustion nerf too far. It's only ~10% nerf from live and with about 15% more crit, after crit mass, incoming in SoO fire is going to just fine.
    We are not getting 15% more crit in SoO. Have you seen the gear? No yellow sockets on tier gear except pants, and not a huge jump in the crit on the gear. I LOST about 2% when I ported my live toon over and grabbed the t16 set and trinkets.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    We are not getting 15% more crit in SoO. Have you seen the gear? No yellow sockets on tier gear except pants, and not a huge jump in the crit on the gear. I LOST about 2% when I ported my live toon over and grabbed the t16 set and trinkets.
    Talking BiS chief and just because its not a yellow socket doesn't mean you can't stack crit. 15% may have be an over estimation but I believe 10 would be an underestimation. Keep in mind I said after CM

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenbud View Post
    Talking BiS chief and just because its not a yellow socket doesn't mean you can't stack crit. 15% may have be an over estimation but I believe 10 would be an underestimation. Keep in mind I said after CM
    Thanks for the usual condescension, chief. Care to show me what you are basing this on? I'd love to see your BiS list with all that additional crit on it. Not to mention I don't know why BiS would matter. most Mages don't care about what a spec does after progression is over.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    Thanks for the usual condescension, chief. Care to show me what you are basing this on? I'd love to see your BiS list with all that additional crit on it. Not to mention I don't know why BiS would matter. most Mages don't care about what a spec does after progression is over.
    Now your you're just reaching for shit to argue. A rough 10% nerf isn't going to gib fire for progression in the slightest and its just going to go up from there...just like every other tier. And everyone cares about BiS or Method and the like would never raid again after they clear because its the last tier of the expansion so gear means dick

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenbud View Post
    Now your you're just reaching for shit to argue. A rough 10% nerf isn't going to gib fire for progression in the slightest and its just going to go up from there...just like every other tier. And everyone cares about BiS or Method and the like would never raid again after they clear because its the last tier of the expansion so gear means dick
    Wait so you spew some BS about how much crit we are getting next tier in the context of how it' will offset the Combustion nerf, get called out for said bs, backtrack and say you were talking about BiS, get called out again, and now I just want to argue? Ever think about maybe just not pulling random numbers out of your ass? You could have just admitted your error and moved on. Btw, debate and discussion are actually normal things on most forums. If you have the BiS list and can show me we are getting "at least 10%", then great.

    You seem to forget out BiS trinkets in t15 bot have crit(1 after reforge). BiS t16 trinkets will either have no crit or at best, 1 that can have a stat reforged to crit.

    We will likely pick up SOME crit in t16, especially factoring in the huge jump in int we will see. I just highly doubt the 10%-15% number.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    Wait so you spew some BS about how much crit we are getting next tier in the context of how it' will offset the Combustion nerf, get called out for said bs, backtrack and say you were talking about BiS, get called out again, and now I just want to argue? Ever think about maybe just not pulling random numbers out of your ass? You could have just admitted your error and moved on. Btw, debate and discussion are actually normal things on most forums. If you have the BiS list and can show me we are getting "at least 10%", then great.

    You seem to forget out BiS trinkets in t15 bot have crit(1 after reforge). BiS t16 trinkets will either have no crit or at best, 1 that can have a stat reforged to crit.

    We will likely pick up SOME crit in t16, especially factoring in the huge jump in int we will see. I just highly doubt the 10%-15% number.
    You are an easily angered little man. There was no back tracking and your "calling out" is just you wanting to make something out of nothing because of your personal issues with me. Last BiS list I saw for fire (I'm well aware shit can change due to tweaking) had Cha-ye BiS still. I did admit 15% may have been overzealous, very good gotchya moment for you there friend. I also hope you are aware that you calling BS and "highly doubting" me doesn't make you any more right then I. So go jump up your own ass next time you want to argue because you have some seriously flawed logic homeslice.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenbud View Post
    You are an easily angered little man. There was no back tracking and your "calling out" is just you wanting to make something out of nothing because of your personal issues with me. Last BiS list I saw for fire (I'm well aware shit can change due to tweaking) had Cha-ye BiS still. I did admit 15% may have been overzealous, very good gotchya moment for you there friend. I also hope you are aware that you calling BS and "highly doubting" me doesn't make you any more right then I. So go jump up your own ass next time you want to argue because you have some seriously flawed logic homeslice.

    So looking at the BiS list Vykina put up: http://www.methodwow.com/board/showt...-Guide/page167 I come up with a grand total of 18,552 crit, keeping in mind we lose the prismatic socket on the weapon and adding 2 sockets for B.S. Current t15 BiS is 19,781 crit rating. We lose 1,229 crit rating. Some of that will be made up with the jump in int, but not anywhere near 10%

    And the only issue I have with you, is the condescending attitude you take toward everyone on the forums. I have no issue debating topics in a respectful manner.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Back on topic, it seems like you have some flexibility, Paladzins. I don't think anyone knows where Hunters will end up in the pecking order in 5.4. Mages should be fine, as the Fire nerf wasn't crippling, and so far Arcane has been untouched. We will likely still be top 5 with at least one of those two specs. Hunters should jump up to compete with the buffs they are getting.

    Group comp might be a factor if you are in a ten man, so you should consider that. Competing with other clothies for gear could slow your progression, as could competing with other mail agi users.

    Al in all, it may just come down to preference as others have said. You sound like you are itching to swap to Mage, just make sure you consider all the pros and cons first.
    Last edited by Methusula; 2013-08-29 at 01:45 AM.

  15. #15
    Mages will outdamage hunters in SoO by quite a bit. Warlocks and Mages are on their own level right now, but a lot of that is due to fight mechanics and multi-dotting/exploiting procs. If you want to play a raid-viable class, a mage is a safe bet. Though they aren't always the top damage class, they're typically damn near the top and I can't really think of a period of time where mages weren't viable and above average.

  16. #16
    See now that is proof, now i will admit i was wrong. I was wrong. And truth be told i don't take a condescending attitude with everyone only people that do it to myself or that i see do it to others. Now if you accused me of holding on to animosity you would be pretty close to right.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenbud View Post
    Now your you're just reaching for shit to argue. A rough 10% nerf isn't going to gib fire for progression in the slightest and its just going to go up from there...just like every other tier. And everyone cares about BiS or Method and the like would never raid again after they clear because its the last tier of the expansion so gear means dick
    It's a 10% nerf to fire with the combustion change alone? I find that doubtful to say the least. Early sims still had mages as arcane and then fire holding the #1 and 2 spots on almost all sim charts. I know a sim isn't a real fight, but still. Not to mention a 10% nerf to fire's overall damage in current BiS gear would still put fire at like 3rd overall.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulestu View Post
    Warlocks and Mages are on their own level right now.
    Id say Rogues are right up there as well, going to be even more so next tier.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulestu View Post
    It's a 10% nerf to fire with the combustion change alone? I find that doubtful to say the least. Early sims still had mages as arcane and then fire holding the #1 and 2 spots on almost all sim charts. I know a sim isn't a real fight, but still. Not to mention a 10% nerf to fire's overall damage in current BiS gear would still put fire at like 3rd overall.
    Not sure what your point is. My post says fire will be do well regardless of the nerf which is a 60% nerf to a Fire Mages #2/3 damage. From the Math and testing I have seen to equates to around 10% overall damage reduction.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulestu View Post
    It's a 10% nerf to fire with the combustion change alone? I find that doubtful to say the least. Early sims still had mages as arcane and then fire holding the #1 and 2 spots on almost all sim charts. I know a sim isn't a real fight, but still. Not to mention a 10% nerf to fire's overall damage in current BiS gear would still put fire at like 3rd overall.
    I'd say 10% is pretty close. It's a 60% nerf to something that is anywhere from 15% to 30% of our overall damage depending on the fight. Averaged out, I'd say it's pretty close.

  20. #20
    Fair enough, but fire mages also tend to scale pretty damn well compared to most other classes. Also, as I said above that, a 10% nerf to current fire performance would drop fire to about 3rd, at the worst.

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