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  1. #321
    High Overlord Huevos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    I never say it don't fuck up with star alignment but Blizzard have already respond to this.
    The glyph in it-self is DPS neutral. If you want to keep it aligned, go without it and it will be aligned and you will have more combustion but less burst (I know it's a little dps loss).
    They can change it back to combustion every 60s and 90s with glyph. Or 45s/90s, or simply remove the glyph.

    It's not the first time that Blizzard break intentionally alignment. The Frost T14 change IV cooldown so it can only be aligned with AT one time per fight.

    There's a great change that all of this change in few day.

    (edit: And yes, I was trolling you. read my tweet, I have said the timer was strange, 2 day ago or something like this)
    It's not a small dps loss to unglyph it, it is a very significant dps loss. Using the glyph shifts half of your combustion ticks pre-haste into the AT combustion sequences, which are substantially more powerful because they line up with 3 minute cooldowns (berserking for trolls) and your 1.5 minute cooldown, PoM, but also lets you get off longer pyro chains, make better use of potions, bloodlust, and other buffs, and makes your opener much stronger when you can essentially guarantee buffs.

    If you think glyph of combustion is dps neutral you either don't play fire or you play fire very poorly.

  2. #322
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    In fact, you explaining it badly.
    The glyph is really really good because you can have a double damage combustion (for double cooldown) just after AT chain pyro resulting in Big ignite. The only 2 important thing is the fact that the glyph increase damage by 100% and that it can be lined with AT.

    And this is why Blizzard want to cut it. Crit is so big in importance that even with only 2 minor change, the result is a huge nerf.
    Why did you prefer?
    having a big RNG resulting in very big damage or very bad result (max-min is around 130k for 200k+ dps) and having to wait for heroic gear for being playable.
    or did you prefer to have less RNG with more average damage but the possibility to play fire from the start.

    The second possibility is what lead Blizzard. They decide to revert all this change for something else. They do the same with Frost mastery, and we still waiting for the solution.
    The answers is 42
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    Nathyiel, TempteÐ (sargeras-EU) - @Nathyiel

  3. #323
    I await the next set of fire nerfs on the ptr. CHOO CHOO all aboard the fire nerf train :3.

    Also called the "Arcane buff train".


    But seriously, do we really think it's gonna be a CM nerf?

    I am slightly convinced it's gonna be a CM nerf and a flat damage nerf for combustion, fireball and pyro.


    I'd really like to see maybe a change to fire where it only does 150% dmg as a crit, rather than 200%.


    Or something like crit strike after a certain threshold CM no longer multiplies but starts to increase crit dmg or some crap. idk T_T
    Last edited by Vynestra; 2013-07-17 at 08:04 PM.

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    I await the next set of fire nerfs on the ptr. CHOO CHOO all aboard the fire nerf train :3.
    The amount of intra-class hate from some Mages on this board is baffling to me. Do you get some sense of personal satisfaction shitting all over others' chosen spec? If the parade of nerfs you've conjured up should actually happen to Fire, would it somehow make you a better player?

    I don't know if you're aware, but you can both play and enjoy playing Arcane WITHOUT hoping another spec is rendered unplayable.

  5. #325
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by awildpidgeyappears View Post
    The amount of intra-class hate from some Mages on this board is baffling to me. Do you get some sense of personal satisfaction shitting all over others' chosen spec? If the parade of nerfs you've conjured up should actually happen to Fire, would it somehow make you a better player?

    I don't know if you're aware, but you can both play and enjoy playing Arcane WITHOUT hoping another spec is rendered unplayable.
    I was going to respond with something similar. He has made it obvious with countless posts over the past few weeks that he hates fire. Great. Not all of us do. Not all of us care if he does.

    @Vynestra, STOP IT!
    Originally Posted by spaace
    I'm REALLY starting to get annoying with all the ignorance on these forums lately.

  6. #326
    High Overlord Huevos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    In fact, you explaining it badly.
    The glyph is really really good because you can have a double damage combustion (for double cooldown) just after AT chain pyro resulting in Big ignite. The only 2 important thing is the fact that the glyph increase damage by 100% and that it can be lined with AT.

    And this is why Blizzard want to cut it. Crit is so big in importance that even with only 2 minor change, the result is a huge nerf.
    Why did you prefer?
    having a big RNG resulting in very big damage or very bad result (max-min is around 130k for 200k+ dps) and having to wait for heroic gear for being playable.
    or did you prefer to have less RNG with more average damage but the possibility to play fire from the start.

    The second possibility is what lead Blizzard. They decide to revert all this change for something else. They do the same with Frost mastery, and we still waiting for the solution.
    If this was in response to what I said I'm not sure how you can think I explained it "badly" when you basically just restated most of what I said and did a complete 180 after you first stated it was "dps neutral".

    Anyway, I prefer to have less RNG, if I'm understanding what you're trying to ask. But Blizzard isn't going to fix fire in a way that makes it playable from the start in 5.4. It scales far too well, and they aren't going to be able to fix it to the degree it needs to be fixed without making it horrible in low level gear. Fire's problems stem from its core mechanics, which they won't touch in a minor version patch.

  7. #327
    High Overlord Bopcommander's Avatar
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    Easiest way to nerf us, though it will not happen in this expansion is the removal of our lvl 90 talents. No more mana management talents. Bring us down in line with all of the other classes where their lvl 90 talents do approx 3% to 7%. That's not going to help with the scaling issue, but if you took a flat 15% spell damage off fire, it would be a big nerf across the board, and replaced it with an a talent that may buff single target dps, aoe damage, or a mixture of both as a 3rd option.

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by awildpidgeyappears View Post
    The amount of intra-class hate from some Mages on this board is baffling to me. Do you get some sense of personal satisfaction shitting all over others' chosen spec? If the parade of nerfs you've conjured up should actually happen to Fire, would it somehow make you a better player?

    I don't know if you're aware, but you can both play and enjoy playing Arcane WITHOUT hoping another spec is rendered unplayable.

    First of all no it's not about me being a better player, it's about me being able to play the spec I like and it actually being viable. Right now as it stands fire is way too strong. If I want to be brought to my raids in 5.4 right now I'd have to be fire. If there are no changes or the changes are not that great, and nothing to balance out arcanes lack of movement I may be FORCED to go a spec I HATE because blizzard can't balance their damned classes.

    Let me ask you how would you feel if you played fire the whole expansion and absolutely HATE arcane and can't stand it, but arcane does over 100k more dps than fire, would you sit there and be like "Oh well dps doesn't matter when we're hitting enrage times, I am just gonna lolololohavefun and play the spec I want!" If you are a progression raider I HIGHLY doubt that'd be your response.

    It's easy to fling mud when your spec is the one sitting pretty, while mine is the one that easily may be un-viable next patch. You can't really talk unless your sitting in mine, or other arcane mages shoes. I hate fire, as it's obvious. It's going to steamroll arcane because arcane has no movement whatsoever, I want to play the spec I really like and enjoy in raids without it being un-viable. Right now fire and arcane are about neck and neck. If they could find a way to keep it that way I'd be pretty damn happy. That's why I am asking for nerfs, so fire is brought down to the level of arcane.

    That's not even including all the movement next tier. How is arcane supposed to survive the heavy movement fights? With an un-sure future for my spec and class I am hoping that arcane will be somewhat viable, amongst heavy movement and that fire will not only be adjusted by that arcane will be given something to move.


    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    I was going to respond with something similar. He has made it obvious with countless posts over the past few weeks that he hates fire. Great. Not all of us do. Not all of us care if he does.

    @Vynestra, STOP IT!
    Stop it? Stop worrying I am going to have to drop my spec next tier, and go fire. And play a spec I hate if I want to raid? If I want to help my raid progress? No. I won't stop it. I am damn passionate about this game and raiding. And I want the spec I play to atleast be viable, and for that to happen arcane needs buffs to movement, and fire needs nerfs.

  9. #329
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    I wonder what you are basing this on. Are you just using anecdotal observations to to assess Fire's OP-ness? From what I've seen, there are several classes that are doing comparable dps to Fire. I also have seen pretty good performance from Arcane. If your post history is to be believed, you yourself have been doing very well as Arcane.

    You seem to have done a 180 on your stance on where Arcane is. It seems like you play the victim when it suits you, but then claim to put out great dps as Arcane and you actually do more dps than you do as Fire.

    So which is it Vynestra? Is Fire OP, or are the two specs competetive?
    Originally Posted by spaace
    I'm REALLY starting to get annoying with all the ignorance on these forums lately.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    I wonder what you are basing this on. Are you just using anecdotal observations to to assess Fire's OP-ness? From what I've seen, there are several classes that are doing comparable dps to Fire. I also have seen pretty good performance from Arcane. If your post history is to be believed, you yourself have been doing very well as Arcane.

    You seem to have done a 180 on your stance on where Arcane is. It seems like you play the victim when it suits you, but then claim to put out great dps as Arcane and you actually do more dps than you do as Fire.

    So which is it Vynestra? Is Fire OP, or are the two specs competetive?


    Right now they're competitive, but next patch the scaling, even in full bis gear this patch is where fire starts to pull ahead of arcane. Now add the exponential scaling fire has it's going to pull ahead. I saw an arcane mage with the trinkets lust 2 set 4 set etc, doing REALLLY good on a target dummy. Then I saw a fire, who didn't have the trinkets proc right away, who didn't really have anything line up doing just as much...without having the line up arcane had.

    I know that once fire gets the stars to align, like I have seen with combustions on the ptr it's just blowing arcane out of the water.

    ONTOP of that, not only will the damage be higher BUT arcane lacks movement. And as vykina has said 5.4 is very high movement in it's fights.

    So right now both are viable, however next tier is what I am talking about. So don't get an attitude with me you are using my words from this patch and putting them forth like I said those things about next patch. Those are two VERY different things.

  11. #331
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    Right now they're competitive, but next patch the scaling, even in full bis gear this patch is where fire starts to pull ahead of arcane. Now add the exponential scaling fire has it's going to pull ahead. I saw an arcane mage with the trinkets lust 2 set 4 set etc, doing REALLLY good on a target dummy. Then I saw a fire, who didn't have the trinkets proc right away, who didn't really have anything line up doing just as much...without having the line up arcane had.

    I know that once fire gets the stars to align, like I have seen with combustions on the ptr it's just blowing arcane out of the water.

    ONTOP of that, not only will the damage be higher BUT arcane lacks movement. And as vykina has said 5.4 is very high movement in it's fights.

    So right now both are viable, however next tier is what I am talking about. So don't get an attitude with me you are using my words from this patch and putting them forth like I said those things about next patch. Those are two VERY different things.
    Ok, so you're actually just bitching about a patch that isn't out yet. Got it. Never mind the fact that they already confirmed that they are nerfing Fire, and haven't even gotten to the numbers yet. TO THE GROUND!!!
    Originally Posted by spaace
    I'm REALLY starting to get annoying with all the ignorance on these forums lately.

  12. #332
    Mechagnome Frost1129's Avatar
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    Lacking movement is going to kill arcane more than fire being a better DPS scaling spec will. You'd have to buff arcane an insane amount to make it do competitive DPS while also constantly moving / recasting RoP.

    You don't need buffs, you need an arcane spec that isn't a "turret" design. I don't see that changing, since its always been that way. It's the spec you chose. Arcane is the turret spec. You apparently like that. Deal with it not being best for progression due to it's weaknesses, or play another spec. This whole "I like spec X, it should be competitive all the time" shit is ridiculous. Unless you want all of our specs to be the same shit with different colors this will never happen. They are going to have inherient advantages and disadvantages. Fights or tiers are going to favor specs which can deal with them the best. Arcane can't handle movement. SoO is high in movement. Guess what's not gonna happen? Arcane mages being brought into progression environments that care about clearing content in a timely manner.

    I still haven't seen any numbers posted anywhere in regards to fire vs. X spec or Y class DPS. Where the hell are you people finding these things?

    Also: mages (and most classes) are pigeon-holed into one spec on a regular basis for DPS. The fact we can even play each of our three specs in one tier is completely unheard of. I used to be happy to have add mechanics that let me fuck around with arcane after playing fire for years. Raids aren't about what you care about playing, they're about working together as a team and using your class to it's utmost to kill bosses and get dem purplz. If arcane sucks, bring something better - If it's fire or frost, it doesn't matter. Personal preference doesn't come into play.
    Last edited by Frost1129; 2013-07-17 at 09:42 PM.

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    Ok, so you're actually just bitching about a patch that isn't out yet. Got it. Never mind the fact that they already confirmed that they are nerfing Fire, and haven't even gotten to the numbers yet. TO THE GROUND!!!

    Still doesn't fix the issue of arcane having no movement.


    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    Lacking movement is going to kill arcane more than fire being a better DPS scaling spec will. You'd have to buff arcane an insane amount to make it do competitive DPS while also constantly moving / recasting RoP.

    You don't need buffs, you need an arcane spec that isn't a "turret" design. I don't see that changing, since its always been that way. It's the spec you chose. Arcane is the turret spec. You apparently like that. Deal with it not being best for progression due to it's weaknesses, or play another spec. This whole "I like spec X, it should be competitive all the time" shit is ridiculous. Unless you want all of our specs to be the same shit with different colors this will never happen. They are going to have inherient advantages and disadvantages. Fights or tiers are going to favor specs which can deal with them the best. Arcane can't handle movement. SoO is high in movement. Guess what's not gonna happen? Arcane mages being brought into progression environments that care about clearing content in a timely manner.

    I still haven't seen any numbers posted anywhere in regards to fire vs. X spec or Y class DPS. Where the hell are you people finding these things?

    Why have 3 specs per class if one is ever going to be the absolute best? Why not just take the other two specs away, and just force everyone to play the one spec because that's basically what your saying and what they're doing. Honestly, WHY have 3 specs if only one is good for raiding, pvp? okay frost. Two specs. Remove arcane.

    Seriously, if we're not going to have specs that can compete on the same level, then why have them at all? It has been mentioned arcane be using IW next patch instead of RoP for certain fights. It's just annoying that once again, I am forced another spec because blizzard has made piece of shit lvl 90 talents that are restricting arcanes movement.

    Arcane isn't the issue here, it's really the 90 talents that they've said they are revamping just not til next xpac. So I guess I'll have to deal with a patch where arcane will be neglected, kinda like it's been all expansion. Yes it's been viable, but it doesn't mean it hasn't been neglected. Arcane hasn't really been the focal attention of the devs at all, except for the scorch weaving nerf. I don't get how blizzard is just going to let it slide and say fuck arcane, oh and fuck frost too. You are gonna play fire and your gonna like it. What bullshit.
    Last edited by Vynestra; 2013-07-17 at 09:43 PM.

  14. #334
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    Still doesn't fix the issue of arcane having no movement.
    This "issue" for the purposes of this conversation, is you calling for Fire nerfs because you don't like it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You could very easily have ignored Fire and lobbied for better tools for Arcane. No one would have a problem with that.
    Originally Posted by spaace
    I'm REALLY starting to get annoying with all the ignorance on these forums lately.

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    This "issue" for the purposes of this conversation, is you calling for Fire nerfs because you don't like it.
    Wow. You mustn't have read anything I have said. One of the first ways to keep arcane viable is making it so fire doesn't as lore put it "scale to infinity" Most people in here acknowledge fire is extremely strong and needs a nerf. I don't want fire nerfed because I don't like it, I want it nerfed so I can play what I do like. If I have to play fire, then I'd prefer it not be nerfed, but I would much rather have it nerfed and be able to play arcane.


    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    This "issue" for the purposes of this conversation, is you calling for Fire nerfs because you don't like it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You could very easily have ignored Fire and lobbied for better tools for Arcane. No one would have a problem with that.

    Unfortunately that just isn't going to happen. Arcane isn't going to magically be given better tools in 5.4. What WILL happen is fire nerfs that are confirmed. So let me hop on the bandwagon of what will happen rather than hoping for something that in no way shape or form will happen.

  16. #336
    Mechagnome Frost1129's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    Still doesn't fix the issue of arcane having no movement.

    Why have 3 specs per class if one is ever going to be the absolute best? Why not just take the other two specs away, and just force everyone to play the one spec because that's basically what your saying and what they're doing. Honestly, WHY have 3 specs if only one is good for raiding, pvp? okay frost. Two specs. Remove arcane.

    Seriously, if we're not going to have specs that can compete on the same level, then why have them at all? It has been mentioned arcane be using IW next patch instead of RoP for certain fights. It's just annoying that once again, I am forced another spec because blizzard has made piece of shit lvl 90 talents that are restricting arcanes movement.

    Arcane isn't the issue here, it's really the 90 talents that they've said they are revamping just not til next xpac. So I guess I'll have to deal with a patch where arcane will be neglected, kinda like it's been all expansion. Yes it's been viable, but it doesn't mean it hasn't been neglected. Arcane hasn't really been the focal attention of the devs at all, except for the scorch weaving nerf. I don't get how blizzard is just going to let it slide and say fuck arcane, oh and fuck frost too. You are gonna play fire and your gonna like it. What bullshit.
    Why do hunters have MM? Why do rogues have anything but whatever the fuck spec they are forced to play? Because there is more to WoW than just raiding and progression. Environments where people do have the ability to choose the spec they enjoy the most. That's not what raiding is about. Raids shouldn't be designed around every spec being viable. And every spec shouldn't be so similar that they have the same pros and cons for a raiding environment. You bring what's best out of what you have to raids. Go play LFR and flex raiding if you want to just do whatever the fuck you want and ignore the other people in your team working towards a goal.

    Nerfing fire also won't let you play arcane. If SoO is even worse than ToT movement wise there is no way fire will be nerfed enough to make arcane competitive. Fire will still be king, especially on movement heavy fights. It just won't be god-mode and taking other DPS spots.
    Last edited by Frost1129; 2013-07-17 at 09:50 PM.

  17. #337
    I am Murloc! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    Wow. You mustn't have read anything I have said. One of the first ways to keep arcane viable is making it so fire doesn't as lore put it "scale to infinity" Most people in here acknowledge fire is extremely strong and needs a nerf. I don't want fire nerfed because I don't like it, I want it nerfed so I can play what I do like. If I have to play fire, then I'd prefer it not be nerfed, but I would much rather have it nerfed and be able to play arcane.
    A "nerf" will never fix Fire. Fire needs a FIX because it also needs to be BUFFED at low gear levels (and this has been true of the past TWO expansions as well, Frostfire spec in 3.0-3.1 being an exception because it was more or less an "elementalist" if you will)

    The problem though is they also need to fix Frost, too, as it's on the opposite side of the spectrum.

    Arcane also needs a mobility fix as it's the least mobile caster in the game, currently.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    Why have 3 specs per class if one is ever going to be the absolute best? Why not just take the other two specs away, and just force everyone to play the one spec because that's basically what your saying and what they're doing. Honestly, WHY have 3 specs if only one is good for raiding, pvp? okay frost. Two specs. Remove arcane.
    While I agree Arcane needs a mobility fix, DPS wise it's in a great spot if you can manage to stand still a lot (read: Play in a 25m group). Fire's too good and Frost is too shit. Arcane is fine DPS-wise (but like the other two specs, could definitely use tweaking to increase QoL).

    No need to get so hostile towards people.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    Nerfing fire also won't let you play arcane. If SoO is even worse than ToT movement wise there is no way fire will be nerfed enough to make arcane competitive. Fire will still be king, especially on movement heavy fights. It just won't be god-mode and taking other DPS spots.
    In addition to this, if they actually bother fixing Frost, I'd even say it too could outDPS Arcane. It sure is more mobile.

    Retired Veteran Raider: [T14] 10/16H, [T15] 12/13H, [T16] 7/14H
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  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    It's easy to fling mud when your spec is the one sitting pretty, while mine is the one that easily may be un-viable next patch. You can't really talk unless your sitting in mine, or other arcane mages shoes.
    Well, actually, I was there. It was called 5.1. So I can talk. The difference between you and I is that, during the heyday of Scorch-weaving, I wasn't in here clamoring for nerfs to Arcane so that Fire would shine.

    I play whatever spec will help my raid out the most. First it was Fire, then it was Arcane, then it was Frost, and now it's Fire again. Was I having the most fun ever when I was playing a less-preferred spec? No. But I did what I needed to do to help my raid team progress. And, at the end of the day, for me raiding is the most fun.

    Carry the banner for Arcane buffs all you want—no one is going to fault you for that. But you can accomplish that without hoping that someone else's preferred spec becomes garbage.

  19. #339
    High Overlord Huevos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    This "issue" for the purposes of this conversation, is you calling for Fire nerfs because you don't like it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You could very easily have ignored Fire and lobbied for better tools for Arcane. No one would have a problem with that.
    I'm not trying to antagonize anybody here, but it seems to me his desire to see fire nerfed is only to bring it in line with arcane, and since the priority will always be performance over playing your favorite spec, I understand why he's asking for fire nerfs.

    The fixes arcane needs aren't for output, they're for QoL and sustainable dps (mobility). Fire needs significant damage nerfs because of the way it scales. I don't think anyone that's been paying attention to this thread can really argue against either of those points.

    And FWIW I prefer fire. Would I love to see no nerfs for fire? Of course, who wouldn't enjoy their spec being overpowered? But it's not good for the game, and I'd like to have the option to change things up every once in a while. I'd never do that though if fire doesn't get changed, and neither would any mage that cares about their performance.

  20. #340
    I am Murloc! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    It's easy to fling mud when your spec is the one sitting pretty, while mine is the one that easily may be un-viable next patch.
    Fire in Firelands, Fire in 5.1 (after Friday's Hotfix)/early 5.2 (pre-geared), Frost in 5.3 (post-geared)

    Arcane is the one spec I don't want to play and I can definitely say Arcane has had more "shining" time than Fire or Frost all through Cataclysm (all 3 tiers it was good), and all of MoP thus far.

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