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  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascylia View Post
    Maybe, over 200 Mio dmg, the dmg of the Proc ist almost the same.

    Everytime between 2,6% and 3%.
    For Arcane, Frost and Fire.

    The proc scale with Arcane mastery, but also with the critchance of fire.
    I didn't realize the proc could crit. You also don't have three optimal sets of gear for every spec either, unless of course you do but I wouldn't imagine anyone would have that many sets of gear as a mage. haste heavy for frost, crit heavy for fire and mastery heavy for arcane.

    You do have to realize however that if they can crit, that even if I have half of the crit fire has, my crits are going to do even way more than fires lol. If it's a 35k over 4 seconds for fire, if it crits its 70k. With arcane my non-crits are literally almost 70k. THEN if it crits... Plus if you have wushoolays or twoshoolays proc'd, or two int procs procc'd...Not only is the dmg going to be like 150k for an arcane mage over 4 seconds, but if it crits as well.

    Now the damage over 4 seconds I am not sure if it is 1 tick/second or how it's done. So in reality fire would get 2 tick crits probably to my 1.


    If that is the case quick math at 40k sp and 90 mastery (on ptr with raid buffs and the i553 gear lol)

    Fire 4 10k ticks, if you have 50% crit fully buffed then your gonna have 60k damage.

    Arcane 4 19k ticks, about 25% crit fully buffed it's going to be 95k damage.

    Lets say wushoolays and twoshoolays proc and you have about 35k more int so lets say 75k sp. Crit will go up a chunk too, but for the sake of simple napkin math we'll leave it at 50% and 25%.

    Fire 4 ticks of 18.75k with 50% crit you'll have 112.5k damage total

    Arcane 4 ticks of 35.63k with 25% crit you'll have 178k damage total

    I want to say the difference between test 1 and test 2, fire had a 35k difference in test 1, and test 2 a 65.7k difference. So with fire it does scale better, obviously though because that's fire. It scales better, always, even with legendary cloak procs. HOWEVER we'll never get to a point that fire exceeds arcane's cloak damage this tier because we're not going to hit hundreds and thousands of intellect which is what fire would need to pass arcane. Arcane scales consistently, fire exponentially. However the cloak proc is still better on arcane since it just does more damage flat out.

    However fire does proc more because of more damage...So I can see where fire catches up.

    So it evens out.

  2. #482
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    They have the same rppms, I think it just procs less than fire because less dmg/spells. Same with the current trinkets ive noticed. As fire you have way higher wushoolay/cha-ye/BoH up-time because more dmging spells, it ends up to proc more. However the rppms are the same.
    This doesn't make sense. RPPM is REAL Procs Per Minute. things like the number of damage events are factored in. A spec with fewer damage events will have higher rates to proc per event to even it out. You're contradicting yourself when you say they have the same RPPM, but one procs more.

  3. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    I understand lack of regen/RoP is a clear dps loss, but when in durumu's maze you aren't spamming 4 stack of ab, your spamming arcane barrage, missles, living bomb. Your not really losing a lot of mana so when you come out of the maze your pretty high. Yes our fire mage beats me on durumu every week

    But I can beat him or compete on jin'rokh, I usually beat him on h horridon, usually h tortos (they put me on the boss for it however), on h megaera I barely beat him, h ji-kun I am on nests 80% of the fight so...Can't compare but I'd probably beat him because arcane does really well on that fight. And he does have some more gear than me.

    I see even with movement fights arcane can compete very well with fire and beat it.



    Arcane doesn't scale too well, arcane scales CONSISTENTLY. Fire scales too well at the end tier gear, where as arcane just..consistently scales well. It's not going to get nerfed because heavy movement will bring it's dps down to fire/frost once fire is nerfed. However I do forsee arcane still being very viable. Obviously we need to wait but I'd be willing to bet A LOT on it. Against all of the naysayers I do believe arcane will come out very competitive with fire. I'm sure you can come up with every counter arguement to anything I say but at the end of the day, fire hasn't been nerfed yet, mage changes aren't 100% done. Damage pass hasn't happened. We need to wait, we can predict, we can argue but we do really need to wait....And see arcane be viable :3.

    Edit: I just wish the devs would do something about arcanes movement, rather than ignore it. It's annoying to see fire and frost getting a spotlight and arcane literally just completely ignored at this point, still. I'm hoping there are other changes to help with movement. I still think even if we don't get them we can still be viable it'd just be more difficult, and you'll need to play very strategically with ice floes and RoP.
    I'm not saying arcane isn't viable by any means. There are arcane mages on WoL with very high dps scores, and arcane last I checked simmed higher than fire in BiS T15. What I am saying is that I do not believe Ice Floes is such a large buff that it brings them up to par with fire mages (durumu being a prime example of this). I'm guessing you're in a 25man guild as well (with 2 mages), that gives a raid much more flexibility to plant you in a spot and have you ignore certain mechanics for a dps gain. In a 10man environment, arcane is just a really tough slog (although maybe you are in a 10man with an arcane and fire mage /shrug).

    I'm not sure about your statement on arcane scaling, but I have no data to back it up other than the old simcraft all-class results page which I don't trust. That said, if arcane is able to beat fire on a ST fight, I would argue it scales at least very well, if not insanely well like fire.

  4. #484
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromelter View Post
    I'm not saying arcane isn't viable by any means. There are arcane mages on WoL with very high dps scores, and arcane last I checked simmed higher than fire in BiS T15. What I am saying is that I do not believe Ice Floes is such a large buff that it brings them up to par with fire mages (durumu being a prime example of this). I'm guessing you're in a 25man guild as well (with 2 mages), that gives a raid much more flexibility to plant you in a spot and have you ignore certain mechanics for a dps gain. In a 10man environment, arcane is just a really tough slog (although maybe you are in a 10man with an arcane and fire mage /shrug).

    I'm not sure about your statement on arcane scaling, but I have no data to back it up other than the old simcraft all-class results page which I don't trust. That said, if arcane is able to beat fire on a ST fight, I would argue it scales at least very well, if not insanely well like fire.
    On live it beats it. Ptr is a different story. Arcane can't keep up with fire in tier 16 gear. Fire scales too ridiculously at that point

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    I understand lack of regen/RoP is a clear dps loss, but when in durumu's maze you aren't spamming 4 stack of ab, your spamming arcane barrage, missles, living bomb
    No need to even clear your stacks. I have no problem going into and out of the maze with 4 stacks and using AE or LB to proc missiles. I never once clear and just take the melee maze and use missiles as I have time, AE if I don't get a proc to keep stacks.

  6. #486
    Okay I figured it's time to bump this up -- With the tuning pass around the corner and GC saying that warlock and mage dps is too high, but that they don't want to hotfix nerf us...Does that spell nerfs for us now D:?


    We'll see if fire does finally get nerfed or if they leave mages alone like they've kinda been doing except for frost..We'll see.

    I'm excited for the tuning to begin, it signifies the end of the ptr cycle for sure. I feel like this cycle has been going on forever.

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    Okay I figured it's time to bump this up -- With the tuning pass around the corner and GC saying that warlock and mage dps is too high, but that they don't want to hotfix nerf us...Does that spell nerfs for us now D:?


    We'll see if fire does finally get nerfed or if they leave mages alone like they've kinda been doing except for frost..We'll see.

    I'm excited for the tuning to begin, it signifies the end of the ptr cycle for sure. I feel like this cycle has been going on forever.
    We've got ages left of the PTR cycle yet man, haven't even touched 25man normal testing let alone heroic, and still got some flr and flex wings to test yet.

    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    We've got ages left of the PTR cycle yet man, haven't even touched 25man normal testing let alone heroic, and still got some flr and flex wings to test yet.
    They did 25m all under 2 weeks last time, up to the weekend before tot went live they did 25m -- 25m is typically like all of the heroic 25m guilds doing it, most testers can't mustera 25m together. Regardless, it will all hopefully end within a month. They're 8/14 heroic boss-count wise and they could literally finish that next week.

  9. #489
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    They did 25m all under 2 weeks last time, up to the weekend before tot went live they did 25m -- 25m is typically like all of the heroic 25m guilds doing it, most testers can't mustera 25m together. Regardless, it will all hopefully end within a month. They're 8/14 heroic boss-count wise and they could literally finish that next week.
    I believe we will see 5.4 in ~3-4 weeks, early september.
    As for fire GC stated somewhere an idea to impliment scaling factor to Critical Mass - you need more crit for the next % (cant provide source though).

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by ssviolett View Post
    I believe we will see 5.4 in ~3-4 weeks, early september.
    As for fire GC stated somewhere an idea to impliment scaling factor to Critical Mass - you need more crit for the next % (cant provide source though).
    I don't think they will fix CM scaling till next xpac, and seeing how arcane is preforming very well and ahead for overall parses there seems no need to nerf fire atm, imo fire will go live 5.4 the same way it is in 5.3 and base dmg nerfs will prob be made thru hotfixes depending if the numbers get out of control

  11. #491
    The message from Twitter is pretty clear: don't compare your DPS to what mages and warlocks are capable in 5.3, because they are too high. The nerfs are coming - they just haven't hit the PTR yet.

  12. #492
    IMO Combustion is the ability that needs nerfing. It just scales too well, especially when you have every proc on the pull. Having a lot of mages trivializes DPS checks for shared health council fights like Dark Shamans. Something is wrong when your first Combustion does more damage than all your other Combustions combined.
    Last edited by NeverStop; 2013-08-12 at 05:01 PM.

  13. #493
    Coffee with the Devs: Dissecting Patch 5.4 Class Changes
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
    Mage (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)

    We didn’t think Mages needed many changes overall. One goal of ours was to fix Frost Mastery, which we felt was increasingly making them difficult to tune in PvP. When you take a spec with high burst and good control and then give them Mastery that links the two together, you’re bound to have trouble. The new Mastery, called Icicles, spreads the burst out over a few seconds but in a novel way that doesn’t feel too similar to, say, Ignite. As a consequence, we removed the mechanic where Frostbolt buffs other spells and just let those spells do higher damage to begin with. As of this writing, we haven’t made any mechanical changes to Fire, though if you saw any earlier patch notes, we experimented with a few. Long term, we still have concerns about the interplay between Alter Time and Combustion, and we still have concerns about Fire scaling with Critical Strike, but we’re not convinced either of these problems is so egregious that it needs to be fixed in Patch 5.4.

    In terms of talents, we increased the damage of the bomb tier, and buffed Ice Flows and Temporal Shield, which were underutilized. Long term, we still think the level-90 tier needs some work, but we were concerned that attempting to replace two or three of these talents for Patch 5.4 would lead to a lot more iteration before they felt good again. But we did ease the restrictions on Rune of Power. Since it didn’t feel like a crisis, we think more dramatic change is better saved for an expansion, when we have more time to consider new visuals, test, and get feedback.

  14. #494
    Bloodsail Admiral Frost1129's Avatar
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    If the new mastery fixed frost is still up in the air I think. Looking forward to some of the mages around here showing what it's effect on raiding is once 5.4 is up. I know I sure as hell won't be frost, heh.

    From their statement it seems like the earlier PoM nerf was to target the power of AT + combustion, less to hit PoM and it feeding into combustion. Once we get high enough crit levels I could see PoM being much less of an influence in combustion than it currently is now. Don't know how they are going to fix AT feeding into combustion. If they completely removed it working with HS + HU it'd be a huge nerf to both DPS and to how the spec feels overall - adding in more randomness.

    "[W]e still have concerns about Fire scaling with Critical Strike" made me laugh pretty hard. We designed every mechanic for fire around critting, and are now concerned that fire is scaling to well with crit.

    On their comments about TS, I was under the impression almost every raiding mage took TS? I use it on the vast majority of fights. I guess I was over generalizing that thought though if they thought not enough mages were taking it.

  15. #495
    I use Ice Barrier on Heroic Lei Shen, and Flameglow was useful on a couple of fights with constant aoe or where TS wasn't really necessary. With the 25% scaling nerf to Flameglow for PVP reasons that talent lot of its potency though. The 15% upfront mitigation buff to TS encroaches on the niche that Ice Barrier once held, and it'll take a scenario where I'm not DPSing at all, like LS, to consider taking Ice Barrier, unless I absolutely need that little extra bit of upfront mitigation.

    Personally I think they buffed TS so it sees more use in PVP. Most of the time our talents get nerfs for PVP but that's a rare exception imo. As it stands right now TS is already the best talent in that tier on nearly every fight.
    Last edited by MrExcelion; 2013-08-12 at 07:48 PM.

  16. #496
    TS beats Ice Barrier only if the damage won't 1 shot you and the absorb from IB is greater than the 15% damage reduction from TS. TS has the advantage that it's off the GCD so you don't lose DPS by casting it.

  17. #497
    We'll see if fire and arcane get hit with das nerf hammer...I am not sure why they would buff frost to basically the levels of arcane and fire, then nerf arcane and fire and leave frost high? It doesn't make sense. I don't think we'll see nerfs for mages, just buffs for everyone else b/c of the rppm change. The rppm change nerfs both fire and arcane.

  18. #498
    That RPPM change hurts frost too.

  19. #499
    Nothing surprising there really, that's about the direction I thought they were going in.

  20. #500
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    On their comments about TS, I was under the impression almost every raiding mage took TS? I use it on the vast majority of fights. I guess I was over generalizing that thought though if they thought not enough mages were taking it.
    Not really. Ice barrier gave you more of a health buffer, which is generally what you need during early progression without as much gear. TS had the issue that it didn't save you from dying for the attack you shield. It slowly healed you up after the event, which was usually sniped by healers anyway. TS wouldn't save you from being not topped off and about to take interrupting jolt or a semi-close thunderstruck.

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