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  1. #581
    Fire #1 Jin rokh 702798 DPS
    Demo 1# Jin rokh 487082 DPS

    I could say #1 Fire is 44.28% higher than #1 demo wl, so where is the point with these numbers?
    People keep doing the mistake of looking at top parses to justify their argument. Do you not just understand that this is unfair to mages, especially the low ones ? Fire is a very high RNG spec and because of that it will produce MANY very high results, and MANY very low results. Showing us the average of ONLY the top parses is at least suspicious from your part. At least, if you want to be more objective, you should show us raidbots of ALL PARSES.

    This isnt even funny anymore.

  2. #582
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    Quote Originally Posted by sornok View Post
    People keep doing the mistake of looking at top parses to justify their argument. Do you not just understand that this is unfair to mages, especially the low ones ? Fire is a very high RNG spec and because of that it will produce MANY very high results, and MANY very low results. Showing us the average of ONLY the top parses is at least suspicious from your part. At least, if you want to be more objective, you should show us raidbots of ALL PARSES.

    This isnt even funny anymore.
    I´m sad for you that you didn´t get the context. Maybe you should read previous posts to get an idea what I wanted to say with my post

  3. #583
    Bloodsail Admiral Frost1129's Avatar
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    Pete was using those numbers to say exactly what you just did snork - That looking at numbers on Jin'Rokh from high parsing people and then trying to make conclusion is a bad idea and will lead to bad conclusions.

  4. #584
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    Exactly, thank you Frost. I'm not a native English speaker, so sometimes my arguments seems not to be clear or something sounds like an insult, but I´m a friendly person : )

  5. #585
    Pete was using those numbers to say exactly what you just did snork - That looking at numbers on Jin'Rokh from high parsing people and then trying to make conclusion is a bad idea and will lead to bad conclusions.
    Ok then my apologies. Btw, am I the only one who likes this change ? If overall dps is still competitive and we do not rely so much on combustion anymore, is a good thing to avoid such comparisons as the one above. And now they will have a reason to give us real aoe.

  6. #586
    Bloodsail Admiral Frost1129's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sornok View Post
    Ok then my apologies. Btw, am I the only one who likes this change ? If overall dps is still competitive and we do not rely so much on combustion anymore, is a good thing to avoid such comparisons as the one above. And now they will have a reason to give us real aoe.
    This really doesn't do anything to lower how much we need combustion damage. If anything, low geared mages are now pressed harder to get those good combustions since a low-balled combustion is going to be really, really bad. If this nerf puts low combustions in the range of being completely trivial it'll probably have to be reverted a bit or risk destroying lower geared mages.

    Since there are finally fire changes, I'll get my butt over to the PTR tonight and see what I can do on live vs. with this change in current gear. We'll see how much of a change this actually is.

    Reasons these kinds of changes are bad ways to balance fire overall is due to the nature of fire DPS right now. We essentially have damage from FB, Pyro, Ignite, and Combustion. Ignore mage bomb, all specs have and use it. Crit feeds into every single one of those damage sources, multiple times. It also works to inflate mastery through ignite and combustion. This is the core issue that needs to be addressed, and just flat nerfing something like combustion will never solve that issue. It will always hurt low geared mages, while high tier mages will survive due to ridiculous crit ratings allowing for the non-nerfed DPS components to prop-up the nerfed portion.

    I'd also like to add that combustion to a ridiculous amount of our opening damage. People can tell when you don't get a good one, it's that much. Unless you have a bunch of crit to roll pyro! constantly once this nerfed combustion is done ticking, you're prolly gonna have a bad time.
    Last edited by Frost1129; 2013-08-13 at 04:57 PM.

  7. #587
    well...glad I've been picking up that arcane gear the past few lockouts. While fire needs to be brought in line this is not the way to do it, cutting combustion by 30% seems overkill and while in BiS gear might bring us in line...we all know that BiS gear doesn't actually matter since you don't progress in it

  8. #588
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Man, I could have sworn GC said 100 times Fire won't scale out of control. Also coulda sworn that everyone who did testing found all specs to be near similar.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  9. #589
    with this Change I'm realy worried about you average joe normal mode geared Mage. Granted the Top Hearoic geared mages scale way out of Proportion and an Nerf in that Area was justified, this nerf alone will absolutely kill low geared fire mages. There has to be a buff to kompensate somewhere within the normal Rotation. The Point that concerns me the most though is that I don't think the numbers Blizzard will get from the PTR will be accurate. How many Mages with low gear actually bother with PTR testing? It's the Heroic Raiders you will typicaly find on the PTR and therefor the Statistics will not be accurate. I think something similar might have happened with the 5.2 PTR where blizzard had to buff mages accross the borard after 5.2 went live. And what is the ilevel of the PTR premades anyway and does your average Joe normal mode raiding Mage on live actually reach those numbers? Undergeared Characters are simply underrepresented on the PTR and therefor Blizzard might not be able to see gear related Problems.

  10. #590
    Bloodsail Admiral Frost1129's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    well...glad I've been picking up that arcane gear the past few lockouts. While fire needs to be brought in line this is not the way to do it, cutting combustion by 30% seems overkill and while in BiS gear might bring us in line...we all know that BiS gear doesn't actually matter since you don't progress in it
    The reduction is a 60% nerf to the damage combustion will be doing.

  11. #591
    Quote Originally Posted by IronheadHaynes View Post
    with this Change I'm realy worried about you average joe normal mode geared Mage. Granted the Top Hearoic geared mages scale way out of Proportion and an Nerf in that Area was justified, this nerf alone will absolutely kill low geared fire mages. There has to be a buff to kompensate somewhere within the normal Rotation. The Point that concerns me the most though is that I don't think the numbers Blizzard will get from the PTR will be accurate. How many Mages with low gear actually bother with PTR testing? It's the Heroic Raiders you will typicaly find on the PTR and therefor the Statistics will not be accurate. I think something similar might have happened with the 5.2 PTR where blizzard had to buff mages accross the borard after 5.2 went live. And what is the ilevel of the PTR premades anyway and does your average Joe normal mode raiding Mage on live actually reach those numbers? Undergeared Characters are simply underrepresented on the PTR and therefor Blizzard might not be able to see gear related Problems.
    I will go test this stuff out on the PTR later on today on a dummy and let you know. I figure I am about what you would consider a viably geared but low geared fire mage. (I'm blaming you dark animus)

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  12. #592
    Quote Originally Posted by IronheadHaynes View Post
    with this Change I'm realy worried about you average joe normal mode geared Mage. Granted the Top Hearoic geared mages scale way out of Proportion and an Nerf in that Area was justified, this nerf alone will absolutely kill low geared fire mages. There has to be a buff to kompensate somewhere within the normal Rotation. The Point that concerns me the most though is that I don't think the numbers Blizzard will get from the PTR will be accurate. How many Mages with low gear actually bother with PTR testing? It's the Heroic Raiders you will typicaly find on the PTR and therefor the Statistics will not be accurate. I think something similar might have happened with the 5.2 PTR where blizzard had to buff mages accross the borard after 5.2 went live. And what is the ilevel of the PTR premades anyway and does your average Joe normal mode raiding Mage on live actually reach those numbers? Undergeared Characters are simply underrepresented on the PTR and therefor Blizzard might not be able to see gear related Problems.

    In my opinion Blizz SHOULD balance around Hc raiders and 2200+ pvpers. I think they ACTUALLY balance around 1000-1500 pvp and LFR though.

    The mage changes for 5.4 bring all top end geared mages more into line. Frost always was the spec for low gear, challenge modes etc but it doesn't scale as well as fire & arcane. It still won't. Arcane is ok with scaling and fire was off the charts. This brings all the top end mages far more into line, and I for one am glad of that.

  13. #593
    If Combustion is the only nerf, Fire will be fine in 5.4.

    Let's look at Vykina's log on Twins (purely single target fight): http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-na...s=9731&e=10164

    60% nerf on Combustion means he would do 10% less damage, which still puts him ahead of everyone else except the warlock and tank. So with the Combustion nerf, Fire is equal to other specs at 550 ilvl, but Fire still has the best scaling out of all DPS specs, so with 580 ilvl Fire will continue to dominate as #1.

  14. #594
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    If Combustion is the only nerf, Fire will be fine in 5.4.

    Let's look at Vykina's log on Twins (purely single target fight): http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-na...s=9731&e=10164

    60% nerf on Combustion means he would do 10% less damage, which still puts him ahead of everyone else except the warlock and tank. So with the Combustion nerf, Fire is equal to other specs at 550 ilvl, but Fire still has the best scaling out of all DPS specs, so with 580 ilvl Fire will continue to dominate as #1.
    Weird how he wasn't even #1 and you continue to say he will be #1.

    Everyone needs to understand that you never look at Top parses for Fire because they're just purely lucky based on your pre-Combustions. Even being the top Mages in the world know that not every pre-Comb is going to be going your way.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  15. #595
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Weird how he wasn't even #1 and you continue to say he will be #1.

    Everyone needs to understand that you never look at Top parses for Fire because they're just purely lucky based on your pre-Combustions. Even being the top Mages in the world know that not every pre-Comb is going to be going your way.
    Ignore damage on the Lurkers.

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-na...s=9731&e=10164
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-na...s=9731&e=10164

    The Combustion nerf will actually reduce RNG. If "stars aligned" Combustion does 20 mil damage and your "no crits ever" Combustion does 5 million damage, that's a 15 mil difference. Now apply the 60% nerf and Combustion's contribution to your DPS drops significantly, so the gap between best Combustion parse and crappy Combustion parse will become much smaller.

  16. #596
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    The Combustion nerf will actually reduce RNG. If "stars aligned" Combustion does 20 mil damage and your "no crits ever" Combustion does 5 million damage, that's a 15 mil difference. Now apply the 60% nerf and Combustion's contribution to your DPS drops significantly, so the gap between best Combustion parse and crappy Combustion parse will become much smaller.
    Except now all Combustions will simply be on the lower end, nerfing the average Fire Mage to a significantly lower level. It's about a 5-6% DPS loss on ST, and a much greater one on multi-target, close-range, cleave (like Council).

    Regardless though, so glad I'm okay with going Frost and was planning to already.


    PS: Fire wasn't that high (average-wise, not top-wise) on fights that don't give damage buffs (sadly, Blizzard decided to trap Fire this tier by giving us MANY fights with damage buffs). It's funny how that could almost seem deliberate.

    Not many people seem to understand that Fire can "Double Dip" on Damage Done/Taken buffs/debuffs. Bigger Pyroblasts = Bigger Ignites = Bigger Combustions (that benefit from said damage buffs a second time; same with Ignite)
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2013-08-13 at 05:58 PM.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  17. #597
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    the gap between best Combustion parse and crappy Combustion parse will become much smaller.
    That's what they were going for, nerfing our dps but also a second objective of lessening the skill gap when it comes to Combustion. Lore felt it was too complicated, though I'd disagree. Now it's a very bland spec.

    btw, thread title needs an update!

  18. #598
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Ignore damage on the Lurkers.

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-na...s=9731&e=10164
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-na...s=9731&e=10164

    The Combustion nerf will actually reduce RNG. If "stars aligned" Combustion does 20 mil damage and your "no crits ever" Combustion does 5 million damage, that's a 15 mil difference. Now apply the 60% nerf and Combustion's contribution to your DPS drops significantly, so the gap between best Combustion parse and crappy Combustion parse will become much smaller.
    It is a net 10% DPS loss from his single target encounter, which seems quite large for a single target fight

  19. #599
    The combustion nerf will not reduce RNG, but I understand what you are trying to say. the nerf will just make it less punishing when you get fucked by RNG.
    Last edited by Species; 2013-08-13 at 06:07 PM.

  20. #600
    Bloodsail Admiral Frost1129's Avatar
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    Nothing about this change reduces RNG. This just makes good combustions not cause huge DPS swings for high geared mages (since it's going to be a much lower portion of their damage. They have a ton of Pyro! / high ignites to carry them through the new shit combustions). Lower geared mages will be completely dominated without getting an amazing combustion now though. They don't have the high number of Pyro!s or the consistently higher ignite ticks that a high tier mage does.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Ignore damage on the Lurkers.

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-na...s=9731&e=10164
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-na...s=9731&e=10164

    The Combustion nerf will actually reduce RNG. If "stars aligned" Combustion does 20 mil damage and your "no crits ever" Combustion does 5 million damage, that's a 15 mil difference. Now apply the 60% nerf and Combustion's contribution to your DPS drops significantly, so the gap between best Combustion parse and crappy Combustion parse will become much smaller.
    This also means without another source of significant damage low geared mages will be crippled unless they get an amazing combustion, where as before they could get decent to amazing and still be fine. The swing will go from 5-20mil, to 2-8mil. So getting an amazing combustion now is hardly better than a really shitty one before. If you thought fire mages were struggling now without amazing gear, they'll be completely screwed now. Even with stars-aligned combustions, it'll hardly be better than the worst combustions right now.

    They basically did exactly what they said they didn't want to - nerf high end mages at the cost of low end ones. Because the changes that wouldn't do that would take a lot of time, effort, and iteration (something they put into Frost instead)
    Last edited by Frost1129; 2013-08-13 at 06:14 PM.

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