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  1. #621
    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    Ignoring lower geared fire mages for a second, because this nerf does a lot more to bring the geared players in line than it does to nerf the low geared fire mages.

    This nerf as absoloutely extreme as it seems is still not enough to even bring fire to middle of the pack due to scaling (this means you still may see co effiient nerfs).

    The only way to slow the extreme scaling that fire has with temp haste buffs on combust is to make combustion no longer generate extra ticks.

    The problem that you have here is that with them leaving the haste scaling in you literally cant keep both ends of the scale in check, and what really sucks for fire is that now you will probably spend all t16 trying to get back to where you are at t15 hc tf levels. (Combustion will never get as strong as it is now either with that nerf)
    This feeling just sucks. We all know that Fire scaling gets out of control towards the end of an expansion. I don't think most people are complaining that Fire got nerfed, I think most of us are upset that it is on our only DPS cooldown. The one cooldown that the entire spec rolls all of its abilities into and then can't cast again for 2min. Taking out non-AT combust into account(maybe 60k on average) will hit for less than our bombs do. It just doesn't feel like a CD, it feels like another DoT on a 2min timer.

    I hate the feeling that we have to play another spec until we get the gear to play another spec, especially if we hate one or another. The feeling atm is that we will have to respec, at least at the beginning of the tier. For progression, I figure people will respec to help out there team. And if you have to respec after months of getting gear that is completely worthless for the 2 other specs we have. Reforging and gemming will help to a degree but Arcane/Fire require completely different secondaries. And if Fire will scale out of control at 570 ilvl, we will be rolling on Fire gear while playing Arcane/Frost. So for months we are playing one spec(with sub-optimal itemization) just to gear up another spec just to get to the same numbers we had the tier previous. It is very annoying.

  2. #622
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    Aside from stat priorities, I wonder what this change does to the Combustion glyph. It seems a lot less mandatory now.

  3. #623
    Pandaren Monk Myz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    I like it. Now I can stop hearing from everyone how arcane will suck in siege cause of movement against fire.
    How come? It still will.

  4. #624
    Btw, just did an LFR and this is Fire with 100% Crit.

    http://imgur.com/a/JInqw

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...pcast/advanced

    506 ilvl, 165k dps

  5. #625
    Epic! Valanna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Btw, just did an LFR and this is Fire with 100% Crit.

    http://imgur.com/a/JInqw

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...pcast/advanced

    506 ilvl, 165k dps
    100% crit?
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Trolling will result in the loss of your forum posting privileges, and the removal of your genitals with my teeth while I hum Oasis songs.

  6. #626
    >506 ilvl, 165k dps

    165K on a fight where you can do some huge combustion spreads to a lot of ads. Single target is what is relevant.

  7. #627
    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    Ignoring lower geared fire mages for a second, because this nerf does a lot more to bring the geared players in line than it does to nerf the low geared fire mages.

    This nerf as absoloutely extreme as it seems is still not enough to even bring fire to middle of the pack due to scaling (this means you still may see co effiient nerfs).

    The only way to slow the extreme scaling that fire has with temp haste buffs on combust is to make combustion no longer generate extra ticks.

    The problem that you have here is that with them leaving the haste scaling in you literally cant keep both ends of the scale in check, and what really sucks for fire is that now you will probably spend all t16 trying to get back to where you are at t15 hc tf levels. (Combustion will never get as strong as it is now either with that nerf)
    Any coefficient nerfs to pyro or fireball and fire is down the drain for most fights.. Fire in the middle is really dog, we have seen that over and over, the spec is severly handicapped when it comes to certain parameters on a fight..

    Even with this nerf, it's better to play Arcane(with new RoP range) or Frost on most fights. That is how severe this nerf is.

    And Arcane scales even better than Fire.

  8. #628
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Even with this nerf, it's better to play Arcane(with new RoP range) or Frost on most fights. That is how severe this nerf is.

    And Arcane scales even better than Fire.
    Don't bring further nerfs to the class by highlighting Arcane's strength, please!

  9. #629
    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    Aside from stat priorities, I wonder what this change does to the Combustion glyph. It seems a lot less mandatory now.
    Glyphed combustion will still line up with other cooldowns as well as the ICD trinkets in SoO, so it will be good if not mandatory still.

  10. #630
    Well, I sure miss the excitement when combustion was coming off CD, knowing perfectly well that with a little bit of luck and some preperation your damage would skyrock. That was the 'good old days'. Now those 'epic' seconds before combustion comes of CD, just feels like a lot of work incoming, for very little payback.

    Combustion is the trademark of fire, it's what makes(made) fire fun, challenging and rewarding every 1.5 minutes between all the fireballs and pyroblasts. Combustion is how we forgive fire's simple rotation.

    Today I respeced arcane. Not because of spite or anger towards the ongoing combustions nerf, or even the fact that fire will propably still do great numbers in next tier. But simply because the spec has become boring to play. Arcane at least offers me something different from the spec I've played for so many years now.

  11. #631
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crysie View Post
    I can't really think of any other solution that would tone down the higher geared people than nerfing the lower geared ones, but then combustion is going to be just too weak with this change. It just becomes a weak CD, like how Power Infusion once was (still is in some scenarios)

    Once people start getting geared from SoO, Fire will show its colors once again for sure though.
    Buffing Fireball would be perfect because at lower gear levels, you cast a LOT more Fireballs than you would with an additional 20-30% Crit.

    While this would also buff (compensate partially) the higher geared Mages, it would even greater buff the lower geared ones.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Btw, just did an LFR and this is Fire with 100% Crit.

    http://imgur.com/a/JInqw

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...pcast/advanced

    506 ilvl, 165k dps
    Because Primordius is relevant to an average fight where you don't get random ass buffs that scale differently with every spec.

    At least try if you're going to give us some data.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dissemoen View Post
    Combustion is the trademark of fire, it's what makes(made) fire fun, challenging and rewarding every 1.5 minutes between all the fireballs and pyroblasts. Combustion is how we forgive fire's simple rotation.
    Let's be honest here. Fun? Yeah, if you got a good one. Rewarding? Also fun if you got a good one (Nothing but tears and agony if you got a shitty one), but CHALLENGING? Come on. Don't kid yourself. There is not a damn thing that is HARD about Combustion (let alone all of Fire).

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  12. #632
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Buffing Fireball would be perfect because at lower gear levels, you cast a LOT more Fireballs than you would with an additional 20-30% Crit.

    While this would also buff (compensate partially)
    I can imagine, the problem is that your working under the illusion that Fire actually needs any compensation.

    With the amount of gear readily available now i think its safe to say no one will actually stay in low gear for long and that is no reason to let the higher geared mages do stupid damage compared to everyone else.

    Like i already stated you could still lose prob 10% of your effective dps and stay middle of the pack, thats using gear values from TotTnot even SoO.

    Unless ofc you assume that mages should be the number one damage dealers in which case yes i can imagine you feel you need compensation.

    The interesting number pass will either be the next one or the one after, this was just the rough draft.
    Last edited by AjayxD; 2013-08-13 at 09:59 PM.

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  13. #633
    Quote Originally Posted by Dekadez View Post
    How come? It still will.

    Lol what? Arcane will be at a point where it does more dmg than fire st. The movement will reduce arcanes dmg slightly, putting it on fires level.

    I go up against our fire mage VERY well st right now.

    Plus we'll retain our multi-dotting prowess, your combustion spread will be a little weaker.

    Unlike your combustion we don't scale to infinity. Just scale consistently.

  14. #634
    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    I can imagine, the problem is that your working under the illusion that Fire actually needs any compensation.

    With the amount of gear readily available now i think its safe to say no one will actually stay in low gear for long and that is no reason to let the higher geared mages do stupid damage compared to everyone else.

    Like i already stated you could still lose prob 10% of your effective dps and stay middle of the pack, thats using gear values from TotTnot even SoO.

    Unless ofc you assume that mages should be the number one damage dealers in which case yes i can imagine you feel you need compensation.
    Oh please, portal back to your warlock forums. What do mages bring to the raid that is not already covered by another class? Nothing. If we don't bring the deeps then why bring a mage?

    The problem with nerfing combustion imo is that the already bad actual AoE, not cleaving, becomes even worse.

  15. #635
    Honestly i don't want to play arcane again... it just sucks in progress. I hated it in T14 to tell other people to do special jobs that required movement because i had to stand still to not loose massive amounts of DPS.

    In the end we will always end up playing fire during progress because its king to be able to move with only a small DPS-loss. A fact that also increases survivablity.

  16. #636
    Zero chance fire doesn't get some sort of compensation to other spells or a less brutal nurf to combustion. And yes I think mages should be very close to the top considering the lack of raid utility they bring.

  17. #637
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liebchen View Post
    Honestly i don't want to play arcane again... it just sucks in progress. I hated it in T14 to tell other people to do special jobs that required movement because i had to stand still to not loose massive amounts of DPS.

    In the end we will always end up playing fire during progress because its king to be able to move with only a small DPS-loss. A fact that also increases survivablity.
    That isn't a requirement, that's you being lazy and not working out how to optimize your own play to compensate for movement.

    Fire almost certainly will not be king for progress. It will still be viable/strong, sure, however it simply won't be king. That's just your opinion and considering your earlier statement about Arcane I think it's just that you'd prefer to play Fire over Arcane.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azyel View Post
    Oh please, portal back to your warlock forums. What do mages bring to the raid that is not already covered by another class? Nothing. If we don't bring the deeps then why bring a mage?

    The problem with nerfing combustion imo is that the already bad actual AoE, not cleaving, becomes even worse.
    This argument is getting tiring now. If you really think the Combustion change will stop Mages being strong you either haven't done the maths for it or you're incapable of playing Arcane/re-speccing.
    The truth is that, unless you're in a world-leading guild, the spec you play really doesn't matter, and Arcane's plenty strong enough to play for Progression.

    When Combustion makes Fire so hard to beat on cleave, the AoE factor from the nerf (though how you distinguish cleave from AoE is amusing IMO) is just an unavoidable result. Personally I don't think Fire Mages have AoE, at all. Combustion spreading isn't AoE IMO as it's on limited targets.

  18. #638
    Quote Originally Posted by Azyel View Post
    The problem with nerfing combustion imo is that the already bad actual AoE, not cleaving, becomes even worse.
    Me playing a warlock has nothing to do with taking an interest in balance among specs, but that part of the statement is fair, but blizzard wont address that until 6.0 which is kinda sad.

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  19. #639
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    I can imagine, the problem is that your working under the illusion that Fire actually needs any compensation.
    I mean, if you think it's okay for a DPS spec to lose its last DPS cooldown and be given no compensation... By all means.

    - Your Infernal and Doomguard now deal 150k damage over 30s, and can be cast once every 3 minutes
    - Dark Soul? Yeah, that increases your damage by 5% for 10s. Spec doesn't matter, only 5%.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    Me playing a warlock has nothing to do with taking an interest in balance among specs, but that part of the statement is fair, but blizzard wont address that until 6.0 which is kinda sad.
    It does if you blindly think Fire not being compensated by this is okay.

    We no longer have a DPS cooldown outside of the pull. Comb now does < 300k damage (when glyphed) if you get a 60k Ignite. That's pathetic.

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  20. #640
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    I mean, if you think it's okay for a DPS spec to lose its last DPS cooldown and be given no compensation... By all means.

    - Your Infernal and Doomguard now deal 150k damage over 30s, and can be cast once every 3 minutes
    - Dark Soul? Yeah, that increases your damage by 5% for 10s. Spec doesn't matter, only 5%.
    Doomguard is almost as weak at the moment, no joke. As Arcane w/ ~80% Mastery 1 Living Bomb application does more damage than a Doomguard does. It's a laughable 10M CD.

    I get why people are pissed, I do. Combustion has gone from something that defined the spec to something that now will probably just be an "addon" of it. It sucks having your only CD nerfed to such an extent it's such a laughable DPS gain, but it's just the nerf they decided to go with. Numbers are showing that Fire should still be competitive so I don't get why all this crap about Mages suddenly being shit is coming from.
    Last edited by Cycobi; 2013-08-13 at 10:36 PM.

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