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  1. #761
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solidpat View Post
    You guys should review your math tables. Species is right.

    13M damage combustion represents 50% of ignite. 100% of ignite would thus be 26M. And thus 20% = 5.2M, in other words 13M * 0.4
    I did, after I typed out a repsonse to Vynestra. Species was right. I was trying to to type out my response on my phone(despite having a laptop right next to me) and I was a bit slow on the review process as a result.
    Last edited by Methusula; 2013-08-19 at 06:10 PM.

  2. #762
    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    I don't understand why you and others are focusing on Combustion damage in a vacuum and ignoring everything else.

    A lot of speccs are getting buffed. RPPM trinkets are getting nerfed, which while they effect everyone, hit Fire hardest due to the double dipping nature of Combustion.

    As I've said fight mechanics are changing and need to be learned. Then there's the fact that Fire's crit scaling is leveling out AND there isn't as much crit to be gained this tier. Many changes I didn't even mention, and you want to just port over some numbers from ONE change like there is ANYTHING valid to conclude from it. Sorry, but this is a faulty example and shows us nothing useful.

    I'm sure you cherry picked the Twins fight too because the numbers could better support your case.

    That fight has a lot of adds that can have Combustion cleaved onto them and inflate the value of Combustion. I can sometimes get a huge chunk of my damage from Combustion if the stars align(trinket procs, HU+HS,AT, Pyro crits, tank pulling a fresh group of adds over).
    Twins was the fight I actually looked at it..lol


    And it was normal twins btw.

    And if you only have 13m combustion with lots of cleaving....lol

    And I'm focusing on combustion damage because fire mages are going bat-shit crazy that they're gonna be the bottom of the charts when they won't be...

  3. #763
    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    A lot of speccs are getting buffed. RPPM trinkets are getting nerfed, which while they effect everyone, hit Fire hardest due to the double dipping nature of Combustion.
    Not true. Fire had a lot less haste than pretty much all other speccs so fire is the specc losing nearly no DPS via RPPM.

    The problem with trinkets not proccing does every specc have and with combustion nerfed, it's anyways not as important anymore to perfectly burst.

  4. #764
    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    I don't understand why you and others are focusing on Combustion damage in a vacuum and ignoring everything else.

    A lot of speccs are getting buffed. RPPM trinkets are getting nerfed, which while they effect everyone, hit Fire hardest due to the double dipping nature of Combustion.

    As I've said fight mechanics are changing and need to be learned. Then there's the fact that Fire's crit scaling is leveling out AND there isn't as much crit to be gained this tier. Many changes I didn't even mention, and you want to just port over some numbers from ONE change like there is ANYTHING valid to conclude from it. Sorry, but this is a faulty example and shows us nothing useful.

    I'm sure you cherry picked the Twins fight too because the numbers could better support your case.

    That fight has a lot of adds that can have Combustion cleaved onto them and inflate the value of Combustion. I can sometimes get a huge chunk of my damage from Combustion if the stars align(trinket procs, HU+HS,AT, Pyro crits, tank pulling a fresh group of adds over).
    We clearly have different views concerning our live combustions and our 5.4 combustions. The connection we are making is "hey our combustion hits for XX million damage on live. So our combustions should be around XX million damage when 5.4 goes live." That is all. You are the one trying to dig deeper.

    So I'm done replying to your posts...

    Edit: I don't think I have done Normal Twins. Are there adds? Even if there are I doubt they survive more than 2-3 ticks.

  5. #765
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    Not true. Fire had a lot less haste than pretty much all other speccs so fire is the specc losing nearly no DPS via RPPM.

    The problem with trinkets not proccing does every specc have and with combustion nerfed, it's anyways not as important anymore to perfectly burst.
    Ok, I don't even know where to begin with this one. I don't even know what you're trying to say in that last paragraph. And I actually undersold the value of RPPM trinkets for Fire. Combustion double dips on it's own, and on top of that, many of our spells do as well. Fireball and Pyroblast initial damage, larger Ignites, Combustion initial damage, and of course, the Combustion DoT which is a percentage of the larger ignites built from additional spell power/crit from trinket procs.

    There is a reason Fire tends to come out of the gate with massive Combustions and then come back down to earth as the fight progresses. The pull is disproportionately important for Fire Mages. When we have procs and trinkets up, our initial Combustion can make or break our entire fight. It's the combination of the trinket nerf and Combustion nerf that will bring Fire down, not simply the Combustion nerf.

  6. #766
    But that's not more than others do. I've simmed a lot of characters and actually in T15 hc bis, many speccs lost a lot more than fire.

    And as combustion doesn't deal that much damage anymore, it's not as important as now. So optimizing burst is not that important.

  7. #767
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    But that's not more than others do. I've simmed a lot of characters and actually in T15 hc bis, many speccs lost a lot more than fire.

    And as combustion doesn't deal that much damage anymore, it's not as important as now. So optimizing burst is not that important.
    If your're referring to "many speccs" with regard to RPPM, I'd love to see your results. Even then, "many speccs" were buffed in a way that more than compensates for the RPPM change.

  8. #768
    Fire's sustained even without combustion is above average compared to all the other DPS.

    We are taking live numbers and chopping the -30% off combustion to result in a nerf of 60%. However this does not account for Combustion's ability to get better in time. Left untouched, Combustion was going to contribute to a much bigger % of our total DPS, due to increased stats. All of our stats affect Combustion, it is a very unique spell, and most likely the one that scale the most in the game. So thinking it will not scale further in 5.4 is a mistake.

    I definitely do not see Combustion taking a 60% nerf. With our current numbers, lets say Combustion accounts for 20% of our DPS. A 60% nerf would mean that Combustion would be 8% of our total DPS, which is what people are expecting right now.

    I think it is more reasonable to assume that Combustion would have been 30% of our total damage in in 5.4. Applying the -30% to ignite, that would mean combustion would contribute to 12% of our total damage. That represents a 40% nerf based on live numbers.

    Looking at the upcoming trinkets, I still feel Combustion will be a very powerful spell. Comparing it to wet noodles is just unrealistic. I was initially upset when I saw the nerf the next day. But looking at what's coming, I realize I was overacting for that day.

  9. #769
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Species View Post
    We clearly have different views concerning our live combustions and our 5.4 combustions. The connection we are making is "hey our combustion hits for XX million damage on live. So our combustions should be around XX million damage when 5.4 goes live." That is all. You are the one trying to dig deeper.

    So I'm done replying to your posts...

    Edit: I don't think I have done Normal Twins. Are there adds? Even if there are I doubt they survive more than 2-3 ticks.
    You inserted yourself into this. I was responding to Vynestra who WAS comparing Fire now as it stands in the DPS pecking order to where it stands in 5.4 while only using Combustion in a vacuum to do so. That is the issue I had. I see that he was using normal Twins. I have no problem with you being done replying to my posts. You didn't add anything of value to the conversation anyway.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Solidpat View Post
    Fire's sustained even without combustion is above average compared to all the other DPS.

    We are taking live numbers and chopping the -30% off combustion to result in a nerf of 60%. However this does not account for Combustion's ability to get better in time. Left untouched, Combustion was going to contribute to a much bigger % of our total DPS, due to increased stats. All of our stats affect Combustion, it is a very unique spell, and most likely the one that scale the most in the game. So thinking it will not scale further in 5.4 is a mistake.

    I definitely do not see Combustion taking a 60% nerf. With our current numbers, lets say Combustion accounts for 20% of our DPS. A 60% nerf would mean that Combustion would be 8% of our total DPS, which is what people are expecting right now.

    I think it is more reasonable to assume that Combustion would have been 30% of our total damage in in 5.4. Applying the -30% to ignite, that would mean combustion would contribute to 12% of our total damage. That represents a 40% nerf based on live numbers.

    Looking at the upcoming trinkets, I still feel Combustion will be a very powerful spell. Comparing it to wet noodles is just unrealistic. I was initially upset when I saw the nerf the next day. But looking at what's coming, I realize I was overacting for that day.
    This is largely true. Fire does pretty well without factoring on Combustion. The only issue I see is that Combustion is the sole CD for Fire. There is a psychological component to consider when a spec's only CD gets nerfed.

    I have no doubt Fire will at the very least, be competitive in 5.4. I'm a little concerned about how the nerf will feel, but it is a minor issue.

  10. #770
    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    You inserted yourself into this. I was responding to Vynestra who WAS comparing Fire now as it stands in the DPS pecking order to where it stands in 5.4 while only using Combustion in a vacuum to do so. That is the issue I had. I see that he was using normal Twins. I have no problem with you being done replying to my posts. You didn't add anything of value to the conversation anyway.

    - - - Updated - - -



    This is largely true. Fire does pretty well without factoring on Combustion. The only issue I see is that Combustion is the sole CD for Fire. There is a psychological component to consider when a spec's only CD gets nerfed.

    I have no doubt Fire will at the very least, be competitive in 5.4. I'm a little concerned about how the nerf will feel, but it is a minor issue.
    Fuck what I said earlier, do you really think the shit you posted contributed to the thread in any way? Fire isn't the only spec is one CD. Arcane has 1 CD as well and it sure as shit doesn't do as much damage as Combustion.

    Also "There is a psychological component to consider." Had to lol at that one.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Shangalar; 2013-08-22 at 11:22 AM.

  11. #771
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Species View Post
    Fuck what I said earlier, do you really think the shit you posted contributed to the thread in any way? Fire isn't the only spec is one CD. Arcane has 1 CD as well and it sure as shit doesn't do as much damage as Combustion.

    Also "There is a psychological component to consider." Had to lol at that one.
    Calm your tits, dude.

    Yes, what I said contributed. I was pointing out the fallacy of Vynestra's conclusion in regards to comparing Fire now and in 5.4. You jumped into the conversation and claimed the point of the debate was something else entirely despite having nothing to do with it.

    I'm glad you are aware Arcane has one CD as well. Tell me is it getting nerfed? No, because it is designed completely differently.

    You seem to think I am on some crusade for Fire when all I was doing is pointing out the error in Vynestra's logic.

    Get over yourself.

  12. #772
    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    Calm your tits, dude.

    Yes, what I said contributed. I was pointing out the fallacy of Vynestra's conclusion in regards to comparing Fire now and in 5.4. You jumped into the conversation and claimed the point of the debate was something else entirely despite having nothing to do with it.

    I'm glad you are aware Arcane has one CD as well. Tell me is it getting nerfed? No, because it is designed completely differently.

    You seem to think I am on some crusade for Fire when all I was doing is pointing out the error in Vynestra's logic.

    Get over yourself.
    I thought you were Methusula, Champion of Fire. That's my bad...

  13. #773
    Arcane will probably suffer as much as fire with the rppm nerf -- I've always found rppms to proc more as fire than arcane anyway, this change won't really help it. Especially since arcanes second stat is haste.

    So that'll put fire and arcane nerf levels on par rppm wise, then nerf combustion...we'll have to see who's ahead by how far..but gear scaling will change it...


    We won't know til live..But I still forsee fire doing well.

  14. #774
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    Arcane will probably suffer as much as fire with the rppm nerf -- I've always found rppms to proc more as fire than arcane anyway, this change won't really help it. Especially since arcanes second stat is haste.

    So that'll put fire and arcane nerf levels on par rppm wise, then nerf combustion...we'll have to see who's ahead by how far..but gear scaling will change it...


    We won't know til live..But I still forsee fire doing well.
    I think Fire will be perfectly viable, as will Arcane. Gotta wait and see if they adjust Arcane's numbers at all. I'm not so sure about Frost though.

  15. #775
    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    I think Fire will be perfectly viable, as will Arcane. Gotta wait and see if they adjust Arcane's numbers at all. I'm not so sure about Frost though.
    I'm honestly only expecting one more ptr push that's marked as a release candidate at this point. I know they may have a few more changes tuning wise, not sure if they'll touch arcane or not.


    Our fire mage said he's gonna stay fire, I don't see a reason to switch. And if arcane is THAT op they'll nerf it, I don't think it'll be the case. Movement will still hurt arcane even with the rop buff.

  16. #776
    They should be close number wise. Fire will still probably be the go to spec because of scorch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    I'm honestly only expecting one more ptr push that's marked as a release candidate at this point. I know they may have a few more changes tuning wise, not sure if they'll touch arcane or not.
    I agree. We have had the same PTR build for several days so they have to be nearing the end of testing. They will probably do a final number pass after they finish 25m testing.
    Last edited by Species; 2013-08-20 at 06:12 AM.

  17. #777
    Quote Originally Posted by Species View Post
    They should be close number wise. Fire will still probably be the go to spec because of scorch.
    That's my opinion as well. At 54x ilvl like everybody is right now arcane will do more damage than fire (frost don't think so), but for progression movement and mechanics are more important than dps. With fire you have mobility, with arcane u don't (ice floes and nothing is the same).
    Last edited by blaxter; 2013-08-20 at 06:10 AM.

  18. #778
    Quote Originally Posted by blaxter View Post
    That's my opinion as well. At 54x ilvl like everybody is right now arcane will do more damage than fire (frost don't think so), but for progression movement and mechanics are more important than dps. With fire you have mobility, with arcane u don't (ice floes and nothing is the same).
    ice floes and the new rop will help immensely, and definitely keep it competitive with fire, even in movement. The combustion nerf makes that possible though...However cleave fights arcane will have a ridiculous edge over fire.

  19. #779
    If you have to move every few seconds, or constantly, rop change won't help. Have you tested bosses on ptr?

  20. #780
    Quote Originally Posted by blaxter View Post
    If you have to move every few seconds, or constantly, rop change won't help. Have you tested bosses on ptr?
    Yeah i've tested a few. But it helps a little. And despite scorch allowing you to dps some on the move it's still not optimal, ice floes paired with timing of your bomb and arcane barrage will still be minimal dps loss compared to not dpsing at all. And can almost stay up with scorching if done properly.

    Still think people are making it out to be worse than it actually is, but we'll see when it hits live as I've said before.

    Arcane's standing still st dmg will definitely be ahead of fire that's for sure, and the way it should be always. So anytime standing still helps make up for movement. That's how they get onto more equal ground.

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