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  1. #801
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    Also, re-thinking arcane's burstyness will help on quite a few fights. I know it'll help with immerseus, which'll be a joke anyway...But you can burn adds down quicker.

    Same with the third boss, when you go into your own realm it's multiple mobs. Fire needs a build up where as arcane can just blow it up. So just thinking off the first few fights it'll be helpful but not a must.

    I think a few other bosses it may help too, will need to re-look at a few.
    They added shields onto the adds on the third boss so no one can "just blow it up". Hurts Arcane more due to increased movement.

  2. #802
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    You could argue Arcane was buffed with the RoP change. Technically, all 3 specs COULD use it, and it is possible there may be situations where it will be optimal for the other 2 specs. This change does however, have a disproportionate benefit for Arcane.
    The only situation is 0 movement fights. RoP as Frost/Fire saves you about a global. For the complete mobility tradeoff, I'm 100% okay with never EVER bothering to touch that garbage spell.

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  3. #803
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    The only situation is 0 movement fights. RoP as Frost/Fire saves you about a global. For the complete mobility tradeoff, I'm 100% okay with never EVER bothering to touch that garbage spell.
    Lol, that is the only thing I hate about arcane is the rune.

    I hate invocation more though, I just have bad memories of being frost/fire and pulling lack-luster dps, and now being arcane with more gear and pulling amazing numbers.

  4. #804
    Stood in the Fire Ghoulthaz's Avatar
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    Does the new frost mastery mean that frostmages need to start stacking crit? To maximise the damage dealt by icicles, that is.

  5. #805
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghoulthaz View Post
    Does the new frost mastery mean that frostmages need to start stacking crit? To maximise the damage dealt by icicles, that is.
    Imo it just makes crit ever so slightly less useless, stacking mastery will net you more reliable damage from Icicles.

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  6. #806
    It seems RPPM got hotfixed, so I decided to do a quick Saturday morning test on a turnip target dummy for live vs. PTR. The gear isn't 100% identical...live has 1% more haste and about 250 more spell power vs. PTR has 1% more mastery. Same trinkets & spec (frost). PTR damage was about 7% lower than live.

    Even if the RPPM fix brings PvE Frost closer to its live DPS, it's a fix that will also damage for other specs and classes, so it doesn't help with spec & class balance.

    At least there's no raiding in my near future (other than LFR), so I'm not stressed about this.

  7. #807
    Stood in the Fire Ghoulthaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiga View Post
    It seems RPPM got hotfixed, so I decided to do a quick Saturday morning test on a turnip target dummy for live vs. PTR. The gear isn't 100% identical...live has 1% more haste and about 250 more spell power vs. PTR has 1% more mastery. Same trinkets & spec (frost). PTR damage was about 7% lower than live.

    Even if the RPPM fix brings PvE Frost closer to its live DPS, it's a fix that will also damage for other specs and classes, so it doesn't help with spec & class balance.

    At least there's no raiding in my near future (other than LFR), so I'm not stressed about this.
    Indeed. I'm finding the frost changes interesting, having to manage icicles properly for timed bursts.

    The only thing i'm fussed about is the removal of glyph of invisibility and replacing it with the glyph of rapid displacement that removes blink's ability to remove roots.

    Why didn't they just make the 40% speed increase part of the invisibility spell? Why nerf it? Rogues have a practically free 70% speed boost all the time, including a 25% boost to speed if they select a specific type of talent. Everyone seems to be moving more than mages at this point, and the slight buff to rune of power isn't really a fix.

  8. #808
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghoulthaz View Post
    Indeed. I'm finding the frost changes interesting, having to manage icicles properly for timed bursts.

    The only thing i'm fussed about is the removal of glyph of invisibility and replacing it with the glyph of rapid displacement that removes blink's ability to remove roots.

    Why didn't they just make the 40% speed increase part of the invisibility spell? Why nerf it? Rogues have a practically free 70% speed boost all the time, including a 25% boost to speed if they select a specific type of talent. Everyone seems to be moving more than mages at this point, and the slight buff to rune of power isn't really a fix.
    Felt like the invisibility glyph was mainly useless, people in pve didn't use it, people in pvp didn't use it..Gylph of displacement will be popular in both possibly.

  9. #809
    Epic! Valanna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    Felt like the invisibility glyph was mainly useless, people in pve didn't use it, people in pvp didn't use it..Gylph of displacement will be popular in both possibly.
    I used it on occassion, it's really nice in Troves for example. I can think of a few other major glyph that are more abysmal than invis ever was. AP, FFB, Remove Curse to name a few. It's not something I'll cry over, I just don't see why they had to remove one at all, and if so why not one of the actually useless ones.
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  10. #810
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghoulthaz View Post
    Indeed. I'm finding the frost changes interesting, having to manage icicles properly for timed bursts.

    The only thing i'm fussed about is the removal of glyph of invisibility and replacing it with the glyph of rapid displacement that removes blink's ability to remove roots.

    Why didn't they just make the 40% speed increase part of the invisibility spell? Why nerf it? Rogues have a practically free 70% speed boost all the time, including a 25% boost to speed if they select a specific type of talent. Everyone seems to be moving more than mages at this point, and the slight buff to rune of power isn't really a fix.
    Just kinda felt like chiming in on this one, I have to agree, I've got 1 of each class at 90, and mages feel like they have the worst what I would call "sustained" movement of anyone right now. Our "burst" movement is of course excellent with blink, but almost everyone else moves faster, or has ways of zipping around more frequently than we do. The one notable exception to that would probably be frost and blood death knights. Some classes may be arguably too mobile, I'm thinking specifically hunters, rogues, monks, and warriors. Warriors and monks are particularly kind of ridiculous with how many movement abilities they have.

    The mage glyph may end up helping out a bit, but I would hope it would still move us out of things like the sand traps in ToT. If it doesn't allow us to cast at all while snared/rooted, I would have a hard time using the glyph.

  11. #811
    Epic! Valanna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromelter View Post
    The mage glyph may end up helping out a bit, but I would hope it would still move us out of things like the sand traps in ToT. If it doesn't allow us to cast at all while snared/rooted, I would have a hard time using the glyph.
    You can still cast it, you just won't break the debuff.
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  12. #812
    After doing my final testing on the PTR, I must say I am a bit disapointed by Fire's performance relatively to Arcane. I am a big fan of Fire's rewarding aspect when we are able to align our stuff. But what hit me the most on the PTR, was that the fights no longer reward us with 2 aspects. The first one being the combustion damage. But the other one is simply the lack of modifiers we benefit from in TOT. Fights like : Jinrokh, Horrion, Council, Tortos, Ji-Kun and Primordius greatly contributed to Fire's impressive numbers. But such fights are much rarer in SOO.

    While on the other hand, Arcane got 2 buffs compared to Fire. The Rune of power being one, and the Mage bomb being another. A 10% Buff to our Mage bomb is doubled for Arcane.

    I was also a bit disapointed in the gain in crit rating with the new T16 gear. +2% overall crit... I was hoping for something al least over 5%-6%.

    I simply find that the trinket change, the encounter type change, the nerf to combustion and the low increase in crit rating does contribute to an important nerf to the spec unfortunately.

    I am not saying that Fire will be crap, but I am sure I am not the only one who seeks better than OK DPS. I play my mage to be top dps in my group, and not by a slim margin. I just don't feel it will be possible as Fire this time around.

    Any current Fire mages share my thoughts?

  13. #813
    Quote Originally Posted by Solidpat View Post

    Any current Fire mages share my thoughts?
    I agree. At the end of the tier fire will be on top, as usual, but for the start arcane will be much better even for cleave fights which were the niche of fire. I don't mention frost because the spec damage is a joke, going to woltk times.

  14. #814
    Quote Originally Posted by Solidpat View Post
    Any current Fire mages share my thoughts?
    Fire is outperforming arcane on the PTR right NOW (ie, beginning of the patch, not the end) on single target fights. The nerf to combustion really hurt the cleave numbers, but single target it is still golden. This is verified by Blatty, Vykina, Kuznam and Ataxus (not sure on him). With fire scaling I see no way for fire to not be top.

    As far as damage modifiers go, you are correct in stating there are less (much less) fights with them in SoO, however, I don't see how this is more detrimental to fire than it is arcane. Both get the same modifiers and damage boosts, so I see no advantage/disadvantage there. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong or missing something.

    I think my final thoughts are this: When played correctly and optimally, arcane can compete and even beat fire on a regular basis. However, the ability to maximize your dps by ABC is quite difficult with so much movement in SoO. This greatly increases the skill cap for arcane which IMHO will whittle down the number of top arcane mages. Fire is a bit more forgiving with scorch, but again, reliance on Combustion will now be detrimental overall which again increases the skill cap. Overall, I see the top level mages making arcane work and fighting with fire neck and neck due to their ability to ABC on movement based fights and get every single millisecond of dps possible onto the boss. I see arcane QUICKLY scaling off (more quickly than the normal skill cap curve) because the numbers will be high based on skill and not simply gear. Like I said before, Fire, while a bit more forgiving, will go down the same path with the Combustion nerf which causes mages who rely on competitive dps based on big burst (damage modifying fights for example) to modify and adapt to output more damage overall during fights.

    TL;DR - changes increased skill cap, going to be probably the most interesting patch (spec wise) we have seen for a while now

  15. #815
    Quote Originally Posted by Solidpat View Post
    While on the other hand, Arcane got 2 buffs compared to Fire. The Rune of power being one, and the Mage bomb being another. A 10% Buff to our Mage bomb is doubled for Arcane.
    When did the Mage Bomb buff happen? All I see looking at patch notes is PvP Mage Bomb buffs.

  16. #816
    You are right about the bomb, it is only against players, forgot about that.

    As for the scaling, I am not convinced that Fire scales better than Arcane at this point.

    Mastery: Hands down, Arcane is on top, especially now with the combustion nerf where mastery will be replaced by haste at any softcap level.

    Crit: Granted that crit is top for fire, but considering the crit scaling between tiers, you will see that that the delta gets smaller in time. In t14, the delta was at its peak, then in t15 it was lower than t14, and finally in t16 it will be even lower. When I say delta, i mean the increase in DPS by gaining 1% of crit. Between t15 and t16, gaining 2% crit will not do much to our DPS, thus a very low delta and lower scaling.

    Haste: It is fairly equal for both specs. Probably a bit higher as Arcane because it affects mana regen aswell, and thus it's mastery.

    As Vykina said, we will lose about 8% single target damage and 12% single target with modifiers. I like to take the Fire mages ranked 120-140, of both specs, chop off that % and compare numbers. Currently on live, that is already very close to equal, and that is knowing that fire has higher outliers, better trinket procs than in 5.4 and with Arcane having less mobility than in 5.4.

    The reason I said damage modifiers affected more fire was because of our ability to snapshot and Combust from there. That is a big hit to fire. If you take Tortos, we pulled a massive combustion on Tortos, and while the Turtles were underneath his neck we spreaded. We were able to maintain full Combustion DPS on Turtles and Tortos for the 20 secs. Arcane's burst moment would only last 2-3 secs, until the turtles leave.

    I just feel that all these changes put together, will impact our Fire spec more than we think in the long run.

  17. #817
    Quote Originally Posted by blaxter View Post
    I agree. At the end of the tier fire will be on top, as usual, but for the start arcane will be much better even for cleave fights which were the niche of fire. I don't mention frost because the spec damage is a joke, going to woltk times.
    That is odd because Blatty in BIS Arcane was pretty much destroyed in every fight by the other Fire mages in the group. In face he tweeted just the other day for Arcane buffs and how he needed to rethink what spec is he going to play next patch. HE again tweeted,'when Arcane is destroyed by fire..on single target' that he needed to rethink what spec to play which is good news for fire mages. He mentioned that Combustion damage is crap but with no haste break points for a while it will be nice crit,haste and mastery throwing a lot of pyro's.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Solidpat View Post
    You are right about the bomb, it is only against players, forgot about that.

    As for the scaling, I am not convinced that Fire scales better than Arcane at this point.

    Mastery: Hands down, Arcane is on top, especially now with the combustion nerf where mastery will be replaced by haste at any softcap level.

    Crit: Granted that crit is top for fire, but considering the crit scaling between tiers, you will see that that the delta gets smaller in time. In t14, the delta was at its peak, then in t15 it was lower than t14, and finally in t16 it will be even lower. When I say delta, i mean the increase in DPS by gaining 1% of crit. Between t15 and t16, gaining 2% crit will not do much to our DPS, thus a very low delta and lower scaling.

    Haste: It is fairly equal for both specs. Probably a bit higher as Arcane because it affects mana regen aswell, and thus it's mastery.

    As Vykina said, we will lose about 8% single target damage and 12% single target with modifiers. I like to take the Fire mages ranked 120-140, of both specs, chop off that % and compare numbers. Currently on live, that is already very close to equal, and that is knowing that fire has higher outliers, better trinket procs than in 5.4 and with Arcane having less mobility than in 5.4.

    The reason I said damage modifiers affected more fire was because of our ability to snapshot and Combust from there. That is a big hit to fire. If you take Tortos, we pulled a massive combustion on Tortos, and while the Turtles were underneath his neck we spreaded. We were able to maintain full Combustion DPS on Turtles and Tortos for the 20 secs. Arcane's burst moment would only last 2-3 secs, until the turtles leave.

    I just feel that all these changes put together, will impact our Fire spec more than we think in the long run.
    Vykina has been destroying Blatty in BIS on the PTR and when they also tried out the T16 w/trinkets, Fire is the best scaling spec in the game and will be the spec to play when 5.4 comes out also.

  18. #818
    Dreadlord
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    That was funny as hell! Somebody linked me a video with blatty cursing in french during a PTR test. He is entertaining to watch : ) His fail was, that he played with T16 4p and T15 rotation! I think there is nothing more to add.

    Iron Juggernault is a pure single target fight and 25m heroic tests showed arcane on top!

  19. #819
    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    That was funny as hell! Somebody linked me a video with blatty cursing in french during a PTR test. He is entertaining to watch : ) His fail was, that he played with T16 4p and T15 rotation! I think there is nothing more to add.

    Iron Juggernault is a pure single target fight and 25m heroic tests showed arcane on top!
    Yeah it's a fight by fight basis the poster above you doesn't really know what they're talking about so i'll leave it at that. arcane definitely destroys fire on many fights in siege, and the other way around. It depends the fight, arcane will however always be superior on cleave/add fights now since combustion was nerfed.


    Saying that fire is the best scaling spec of 5.4 and the way to go in 5.4...Maybe in full bis h gear when everything is dead? up until around that point, arcane will be competitive, very competitive. And some fights fire just won't be able to beat it. So get used to it now. (Aiming at the poster above you)

  20. #820
    your so biased for arcane its not even funny, even the top mages have proved that arcane isn't all its hyped up to be.

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