Still no Fire Nerfs and Frost Gets a New Mastery. Further updates at p22

[Pyromelter]

I understand lack of regen/RoP is a clear dps loss, but when in durumu's maze you aren't spamming 4 stack of ab, your spamming arcane barrage, missles, living bomb. Your not really losing a lot of mana so when you come out of the maze your pretty high. Yes our fire mage beats me on durumu every week

But I can beat him or compete on jin'rokh, I usually beat him on h horridon, usually h tortos (they put me on the boss for it however), on h megaera I barely beat him, h ji-kun I am on nests 80% of the fight so...Can't compare but I'd probably beat him because arcane does really well on that fight. And he does have some more gear than me.

I see even with movement fights arcane can compete very well with fire and beat it.



Arcane doesn't scale too well, arcane scales CONSISTENTLY. Fire scales too well at the end tier gear, where as arcane just..consistently scales well. It's not going to get nerfed because heavy movement will bring it's dps down to fire/frost once fire is nerfed. However I do forsee arcane still being very viable. Obviously we need to wait but I'd be willing to bet A LOT on it. Against all of the naysayers I do believe arcane will come out very competitive with fire. I'm sure you can come up with every counter arguement to anything I say but at the end of the day, fire hasn't been nerfed yet, mage changes aren't 100% done. Damage pass hasn't happened. We need to wait, we can predict, we can argue but we do really need to wait....And see arcane be viable :3.

Edit: I just wish the devs would do something about arcanes movement, rather than ignore it. It's annoying to see fire and frost getting a spotlight and arcane literally just completely ignored at this point, still. I'm hoping there are other changes to help with movement. I still think even if we don't get them we can still be viable it'd just be more difficult, and you'll need to play very strategically with ice floes and RoP.

I'm not saying arcane isn't viable by any means. There are arcane mages on WoL with very high dps scores, and arcane last I checked simmed higher than fire in BiS T15. What I am saying is that I do not believe Ice Floes is such a large buff that it brings them up to par with fire mages (durumu being a prime example of this). I'm guessing you're in a 25man guild as well (with 2 mages), that gives a raid much more flexibility to plant you in a spot and have you ignore certain mechanics for a dps gain. In a 10man environment, arcane is just a really tough slog (although maybe you are in a 10man with an arcane and fire mage /shrug).

I'm not sure about your statement on arcane scaling, but I have no data to back it up other than the old simcraft all-class results page which I don't trust. That said, if arcane is able to beat fire on a ST fight, I would argue it scales at least very well, if not insanely well like fire.

[Vynestra]

I'm not saying arcane isn't viable by any means. There are arcane mages on WoL with very high dps scores, and arcane last I checked simmed higher than fire in BiS T15. What I am saying is that I do not believe Ice Floes is such a large buff that it brings them up to par with fire mages (durumu being a prime example of this). I'm guessing you're in a 25man guild as well (with 2 mages), that gives a raid much more flexibility to plant you in a spot and have you ignore certain mechanics for a dps gain. In a 10man environment, arcane is just a really tough slog (although maybe you are in a 10man with an arcane and fire mage /shrug).

I'm not sure about your statement on arcane scaling, but I have no data to back it up other than the old simcraft all-class results page which I don't trust. That said, if arcane is able to beat fire on a ST fight, I would argue it scales at least very well, if not insanely well like fire.

On live it beats it. Ptr is a different story. Arcane can't keep up with fire in tier 16 gear. Fire scales too ridiculously at that point

[Mastamage]

I understand lack of regen/RoP is a clear dps loss, but when in durumu's maze you aren't spamming 4 stack of ab, your spamming arcane barrage, missles, living bomb

No need to even clear your stacks. I have no problem going into and out of the maze with 4 stacks and using AE or LB to proc missiles. I never once clear and just take the melee maze and use missiles as I have time, AE if I don't get a proc to keep stacks.

[Vynestra]

Okay I figured it's time to bump this up -- With the tuning pass around the corner and GC saying that warlock and mage dps is too high, but that they don't want to hotfix nerf us...Does that spell nerfs for us now D:?


We'll see if fire does finally get nerfed or if they leave mages alone like they've kinda been doing except for frost..We'll see.

I'm excited for the tuning to begin, it signifies the end of the ptr cycle for sure. I feel like this cycle has been going on forever.

[Vakna]

Okay I figured it's time to bump this up -- With the tuning pass around the corner and GC saying that warlock and mage dps is too high, but that they don't want to hotfix nerf us...Does that spell nerfs for us now D:?


We'll see if fire does finally get nerfed or if they leave mages alone like they've kinda been doing except for frost..We'll see.

I'm excited for the tuning to begin, it signifies the end of the ptr cycle for sure. I feel like this cycle has been going on forever.

We've got ages left of the PTR cycle yet man, haven't even touched 25man normal testing let alone heroic, and still got some flr and flex wings to test yet.

[Vynestra]

We've got ages left of the PTR cycle yet man, haven't even touched 25man normal testing let alone heroic, and still got some flr and flex wings to test yet.

They did 25m all under 2 weeks last time, up to the weekend before tot went live they did 25m -- 25m is typically like all of the heroic 25m guilds doing it, most testers can't mustera 25m together. Regardless, it will all hopefully end within a month. They're 8/14 heroic boss-count wise and they could literally finish that next week.

[ssviolett]

They did 25m all under 2 weeks last time, up to the weekend before tot went live they did 25m -- 25m is typically like all of the heroic 25m guilds doing it, most testers can't mustera 25m together. Regardless, it will all hopefully end within a month. They're 8/14 heroic boss-count wise and they could literally finish that next week.

I believe we will see 5.4 in ~3-4 weeks, early september.
As for fire GC stated somewhere an idea to impliment scaling factor to Critical Mass - you need more crit for the next % (cant provide source though).

[Quilm]

I believe we will see 5.4 in ~3-4 weeks, early september.
As for fire GC stated somewhere an idea to impliment scaling factor to Critical Mass - you need more crit for the next % (cant provide source though).

I don't think they will fix CM scaling till next xpac, and seeing how arcane is preforming very well and ahead for overall parses there seems no need to nerf fire atm, imo fire will go live 5.4 the same way it is in 5.3 and base dmg nerfs will prob be made thru hotfixes depending if the numbers get out of control

[Tiga]

The message from Twitter is pretty clear: don't compare your DPS to what mages and warlocks are capable in 5.3, because they are too high. The nerfs are coming - they just haven't hit the PTR yet.

[NeverStop]

IMO Combustion is the ability that needs nerfing. It just scales too well, especially when you have every proc on the pull. Having a lot of mages trivializes DPS checks for shared health council fights like Dark Shamans. Something is wrong when your first Combustion does more damage than all your other Combustions combined.

[MrExcelion]

Coffee with the Devs: Dissecting Patch 5.4 Class Changes

Mage (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)

We didn’t think Mages needed many changes overall. One goal of ours was to fix Frost Mastery, which we felt was increasingly making them difficult to tune in PvP. When you take a spec with high burst and good control and then give them Mastery that links the two together, you’re bound to have trouble. The new Mastery, called Icicles, spreads the burst out over a few seconds but in a novel way that doesn’t feel too similar to, say, Ignite. As a consequence, we removed the mechanic where Frostbolt buffs other spells and just let those spells do higher damage to begin with. As of this writing, we haven’t made any mechanical changes to Fire, though if you saw any earlier patch notes, we experimented with a few. Long term, we still have concerns about the interplay between Alter Time and Combustion, and we still have concerns about Fire scaling with Critical Strike, but we’re not convinced either of these problems is so egregious that it needs to be fixed in Patch 5.4.

In terms of talents, we increased the damage of the bomb tier, and buffed Ice Flows and Temporal Shield, which were underutilized. Long term, we still think the level-90 tier needs some work, but we were concerned that attempting to replace two or three of these talents for Patch 5.4 would lead to a lot more iteration before they felt good again. But we did ease the restrictions on Rune of Power. Since it didn’t feel like a crisis, we think more dramatic change is better saved for an expansion, when we have more time to consider new visuals, test, and get feedback.

[Frost1129]

If the new mastery fixed frost is still up in the air I think. Looking forward to some of the mages around here showing what it's effect on raiding is once 5.4 is up. I know I sure as hell won't be frost, heh.

From their statement it seems like the earlier PoM nerf was to target the power of AT + combustion, less to hit PoM and it feeding into combustion. Once we get high enough crit levels I could see PoM being much less of an influence in combustion than it currently is now. Don't know how they are going to fix AT feeding into combustion. If they completely removed it working with HS + HU it'd be a huge nerf to both DPS and to how the spec feels overall - adding in more randomness.

"[W]e still have concerns about Fire scaling with Critical Strike" made me laugh pretty hard. We designed every mechanic for fire around critting, and are now concerned that fire is scaling to well with crit.

On their comments about TS, I was under the impression almost every raiding mage took TS? I use it on the vast majority of fights. I guess I was over generalizing that thought though if they thought not enough mages were taking it.

[MrExcelion]

I use Ice Barrier on Heroic Lei Shen, and Flameglow was useful on a couple of fights with constant aoe or where TS wasn't really necessary. With the 25% scaling nerf to Flameglow for PVP reasons that talent lot of its potency though. The 15% upfront mitigation buff to TS encroaches on the niche that Ice Barrier once held, and it'll take a scenario where I'm not DPSing at all, like LS, to consider taking Ice Barrier, unless I absolutely need that little extra bit of upfront mitigation.

Personally I think they buffed TS so it sees more use in PVP. Most of the time our talents get nerfs for PVP but that's a rare exception imo. As it stands right now TS is already the best talent in that tier on nearly every fight.

[NeverStop]

TS beats Ice Barrier only if the damage won't 1 shot you and the absorb from IB is greater than the 15% damage reduction from TS. TS has the advantage that it's off the GCD so you don't lose DPS by casting it.

[Vynestra]

We'll see if fire and arcane get hit with das nerf hammer...I am not sure why they would buff frost to basically the levels of arcane and fire, then nerf arcane and fire and leave frost high? It doesn't make sense. I don't think we'll see nerfs for mages, just buffs for everyone else b/c of the rppm change. The rppm change nerfs both fire and arcane.

[gallamann]

That RPPM change hurts frost too.

[Imnick]

Nothing surprising there really, that's about the direction I thought they were going in.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

On their comments about TS, I was under the impression almost every raiding mage took TS? I use it on the vast majority of fights. I guess I was over generalizing that thought though if they thought not enough mages were taking it.

Not really. Ice barrier gave you more of a health buffer, which is generally what you need during early progression without as much gear. TS had the issue that it didn't save you from dying for the attack you shield. It slowly healed you up after the event, which was usually sniped by healers anyway. TS wouldn't save you from being not topped off and about to take interrupting jolt or a semi-close thunderstruck.

[unholyness]

I believe we will see 5.4 in ~3-4 weeks, early september.
As for fire GC stated somewhere an idea to impliment scaling factor to Critical Mass - you need more crit for the next % (cant provide source though).

Yes and then he tweeted that it would effect too many lower geared mages as they attempt to balance high end geared fire mages so it was scrapped. In fact, If you follow his tweet he has said numerous times that they don't think they will be a scaling problem with Fire at all.

- - - Updated - - -

IMO Combustion is the ability that needs nerfing. It just scales too well, especially when you have every proc on the pull. Having a lot of mages trivializes DPS checks for shared health council fights like Dark Shamans. Something is wrong when your first Combustion does more damage than all your other Combustions combined.

That only seems like a problem for players who still play Frost but for progression guilds it is great to have a good Fire mage or more in their 25man, how is that bad?

[Kuni Zyrekai]

That only seems like a problem for players who still play Frost but for progression guilds it is great to have a good Fire mage or more in their 25man, how is that bad?

Think about it from a balance point. They have to balance for guilds without access to 17 fire mages, yet there will be those that bring 17 fire mages to entirely trivialize the encounter. In addition, other classes like to compete with each other. Having fire doubling or more everyone else's damage is boring.