Still no Fire Nerfs and Frost Gets a New Mastery. Further updates at p22

[voltaa]

Okay, so anyone playing around on testing numbers @ PTR, realistically, how big (or rather, how small) is the chance of frost being the FotM spec for 5.4 progression? I don't really wanna go fire with upcoming combustion nerf (yeah, I totally want my main dps cd to hit like wet noodles, fml) and I heard arcane will be pain in the butt with all the movement in siege, so I just wanna know if there's a point in subscribing for the next patch. And if not FotM, how much of a setback would that be to my raidgroup to actually go frost?

Frost being FoTM? I'd say slim to none on that, though for a normal mode guild that will only end up killing maybe half the heroics, or one that just clears normal, frost will likely be a viable option. Arcane is not as much of a pain as people make it out to be, don't listen to all the hype about how movement destroys arcane dps and that this tier is too movement heavy, people say the same thing every tier, and every tier arcane continues to dominate. I don't know what kind of guild you are in but since you aren't on the ptr testing these things for yourself I think it's safe to assume you aren't pushing for top US or EU rankings or server firsts and are more looking just to have a good time raiding. So if my assumption is correct (feel free to correct me) then frost will not be a huge setback for you, frost is still good dps (currently) at about 550 ilvl, and depending on how the final numbers come out, if they are anywhere close to how they are now, frost should be just fine.

[Vynestra]

I took our fire mages dmg on twins tonight, removed 60% of combustion. Still beat me and was #2 in overall dmg, still.


Yeah......I'm not seeing this as a huge nerf.

[Methusula]

I took our fire mages dmg on twins tonight, removed 60% of combustion. Still beat me and was #2 in overall dmg, still.


Yeah......I'm not seeing this as a huge nerf.

Did they fix Combustion doing 100% of Ignite yet? I don't think so. Your calculation will be way off without factoring that.

[Species]

Did they fix Combustion doing 100% of Ignite yet? I don't think so. Your calculation will be way off without factoring that.

I don't think he is talking about the PTR.

[Methusula]

I don't think he is talking about the PTR.

You're probably right. That actually makes it even worse though since there are a number of changes that will happen once 5.4 hits. Comparing things without factoring that in isn't going to paint a very clear picture.

[Sereas]

I don't think Vynestra is talking about PTR here. Twins are likely Twin Consorts. Nevertheless he's right. I also tried it and did calculate out 60% of my combustion damage on live and still was top on MANY fights (e. g. Lei Shen, speaking of 10 men here)

[Methusula]

I don't think Vynestra is talking about PTR here. Twins are likely Twin Consorts. Nevertheless he's right. I also tried it and did calculate out 60% of my combustion damage on live and still was top on MANY fights (e. g. Lei Shen, speaking of 10 men here)

This simply doesn't work. There are new mechanics in SoO. Nearly every spec is being adjusted in some way or impacted by changes in some way. There are too many variables to just take what you see now and port it over while factoring only one change out of all the things being adjusted.

[Species]

This simply doesn't work. There are new mechanics in SoO. Nearly every spec is being adjusted in some way or impacted by changes in some way. There are too many variables to just take what you see now and port it over while factoring only one change out of all the things being adjusted.

I understand where you are coming from but that is just not true. Do these new mechanics prevent you from standing still for 15 seconds while you set up your initial combustion? They literally changed 1 thing for fire and now you are saying no comparisons can be made?

[Methusula]

I understand where you are coming from but that is just not true. Do these new mechanics prevent you from standing still for 15 seconds while you set up your initial combustion? They literally changed 1 thing for fire and now you are saying no comparisons can be made?

Yes, because Fire isn't the only thing getting changed. Frost got a completely new mastery and is still being tuned. Arcane could still receive tuning.

And new mechanics do actually need to be learned. We will need to learn where and when to move, boss vulnerability, add phases, and a number of other mechanics will be new and can favor one spec over another. It is very short sighted to try and compare Fire now sans 60% Combustion damage to what we can expect in 5.4 without taking everything into account.eiving

And if you factor in other classes, many of them are receiving buffs. So couple a nerf to Fire with buffs to other classes/specs, Fire will not automatically get ushered to the top of the meters.

[Species]

Yes, because Fire isn't the only thing getting changed. Frost got a completely new mastery and is still being tuned. Arcane could still receive tuning.

And new mechanics do actually need to be learned. We will need to learn where and when to move, boss vulnerability, add phases, and a number of other mechanics will be new and can favor one spec over another. It is very short sighted to try and compare Fire now sans 60% Combustion damage to what we can expect in 5.4 without taking everything into account.eiving

And if you factor in other classes, many of them are receiving buffs. So couple a nerf to Fire with buffs to other classes/specs, Fire will not automatically get ushered to the top of the meters.

We can get a rough picture of the difference between our "live" combustion and our "5.4" combustion.
We are simply looking at combustion and giving it a "5.4 value" and then comparing our dps to other classes. It is by no mean 100% accurate but it shouldn't be completely ignore and brushed to the side. I understand numbers are not final and everyone is getting number tweaks but doing this gives us a rough idea on what to expect.

Has anyone done PTR testing and looked at what our combustion ticks would be if it wasn't nerf'ed?

[syandell86]

PTR comb is still broken and it does 100% ignite. It can't be tested until that's fixed.

[Erolian]

What kind of accurate tuning could they possibly do to arcane at this point that will receive proper testing with a week until the patch launches? Assuming its the 27th

[voltaa]

What kind of accurate tuning could they possibly do to arcane at this point that will receive proper testing with a week until the patch launches? Assuming its the 27th

Aside from maybe changing some coefficients on blast or missiles, or maybe adjusting our base mastery...not much. As I have stated here before it would be hard to actually nerf arcane at this point, as the interaction between mastery and bombs is what makes it so powerful, so the most they could really do is nerf our single target which at the moment doesn't seem to be too out of control

[ssviolett]

Combustion Nerf isn't a big deal, the crit we will be getting within a week or two of the patch will make up plenty. With the nerf it's actually more forgiving if you do a weak combustion. For example, a really good combustion in 5.4 will be a weakish one now, the difference won't be noticed. Taking into account Frost's shitty scaling, and new horrid changes and Arcane's improved but still eh movement, fire will still be worth playing. It will take off like crazy once you get some heroic pieces.

Taking scaling into account I suppose Fire will underperform at the beginning of 5.4 (say 530-540 ilvl), and overperform at higher ilvls (550-560). Numbers arent set in stone yet, but I believe it is worth to start as arcane or frost with t16 normals, and switch to fire for heroic progress. Onky thing that makes me really sad panda is mage aoe, since our cleave ability was heavily nerfed ...

[Vynestra]

I was talking about live not PTR.


Our fire mage had 92m dmg, 13m of that was combustion.

So 13m x .60 = 7.8m

92m - 7.8m = 84.2m

Seems like a huge nerf, but when our second highest dmg for the fight was 86m....Not really.


Regardless fire will still be the top dps despite the SUPER over the top reactions to the nerf. People are WAY over-reacting. Yeah arcane may pull ahead for a little, but once fire gets some more gear it'll be fine.

[Delath]

On fights where it's even dps and no dmg increases, yeah fire beats me typically. Although twins I never do too well on...not sure why.

A lot of repositioning in phase 2 and 3

[ColbaneX]

I think they should just remove Arcane so Mages actually have to TRY to achieve high numbers. (Death to Arcane! Fire/Frost ftw!)

[voltaa]

I think they should just remove Arcane so Mages actually have to TRY to achieve high numbers. (Death to Arcane! Fire/Frost ftw!)

Sarcasm? Or...

[Vynestra]

Sarcasm? Or...

I'm going to bed. 8 more days til the patch, if it's pushed an extra week I may die. Literally, die. Night all. Should be ptr maint tomorrow and a week full of raid testing..maybe..Not sure how they're gonna fit it all. If they announced the 27th as a supposed date, I'm sure they have a plan.

[ColbaneX]

Sarcasm? Or...

Yes it is sarcasm. I just hate how Fire relies on an RNG system, (with Frost to a lesser extent as well) while Arcane's tough job is "mana management" which is mostly fixed by lvl 90 talents. At least Icicles pushes Frost more into the realm of "actual scaling" due to better gear directly leading to more power, than it is now with a mastery that for most part doesn't work in PvE.