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  1. #781
    Quote Originally Posted by blaxter View Post
    If you have to move every few seconds, or constantly, rop change won't help. Have you tested bosses on ptr?
    Yes it will, you can already game your RoP movement like mad, mnaking it that much bigger will just let you do so many more things, movement is hardly an issue on live, it will be a non issue in 5.4.

  2. #782
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blaxter View Post
    If you have to move every few seconds, or constantly, rop change won't help. Have you tested bosses on ptr?
    The "problem" with movement and RoP was the re-casting, not the movement loss, so actually the RoP change helps massively.

    As a matter of fact, yes, I've tested every single boss on the PTR. With the exception of Iron Juggernaut and maybe Immerseus (last time I tested it RoP change wasn't implemented) Arcane works fine and is, in fact, stronger than Fire in a few cases.

  3. #783
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    ice floes and the new rop will help immensely, and definitely keep it competitive with fire, even in movement. The combustion nerf makes that possible though...However cleave fights arcane will have a ridiculous edge over fire.
    Just seeing this makes me cringe. I see it happening but it kinda sucks. Is Fire just going to be movement and incredible scaling from now on? The nerf to combustion will nerf Fire's cleave. Is that a good thing? That used to be Fire's niche. We have to build up somewhat on ST and our AE is just horrible. Now it seems Arcane with still be the turret spec, but they have great AE and now better cleave than Fire with a 4 stack Barrage timed correctly.

    I can play all 3 specs but I prefer Fire. I have preferred Fire since Wrath even with all the ups and downs. I am saddened to think that Fire is just going to be the movement spec. If we are just that spec that doesn't really do much except freedom on movement intense fights I think that is just horrible design. I get that Fire scaling is out of control but that just means once you get to that certain ilvl you will just take over with your normal rotation and a subpar dps CD. That just sounds horrible for Fire moving forward(unless they actually do something different in 6.0). Just play another spec until you get heroic gear needs to go away.

  4. #784
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaelan View Post
    Just play another spec until you get heroic gear needs to go away.
    This issue is what I hope they focus on for 6.0. It's going to require a redesign of both fire (so lower geared fire mages don't suck completely) and frost (so capping 2 out of 3 secondary stats doesn't happen with normal mode gear).

  5. #785
    Mechagnome Zatetic's Avatar
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    I just hopped on the ptr to try out things, havent been on since the icicles were implemented. I love the RoP change. That essentially solves all of arcanes problems. So much space to move around in. Not many bad things are that large.

    I felt like I was doing more damage with more than the 9k haste breakpoint than i was sitting on it though. Hopefully our gearing allows excess haste.

  6. #786
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    After testing Immerseus last night as Arcane I really see few issues about it. Juggernaut the main offender at the moment.

  7. #787
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    After testing Immerseus last night as Arcane I really see few issues about it. Juggernaut the main offender at the moment.
    Siegecrafter is also a main offender. Maybe more in 10m than 25m but still

  8. #788
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pandacally View Post
    Siegecrafter is also a main offender. Maybe more in 10m than 25m but still
    Siegecrafter was fine on 25M, considering that's all I care about there's my answer to that

  9. #789
    Curious about this combustion nerf. Where does it put this spell on the priority list? Is it even worth trying to chain crit pyros for the big combust anymore?
    Quote Originally Posted by Validity View Post
    If rogues become shit, all they can become is a different type of shit.

  10. #790
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkm View Post
    Curious about this combustion nerf. Where does it put this spell on the priority list? Is it even worth trying to chain crit pyros for the big combust anymore?
    It still is and it'll still be top priority. You just don't need to fret about it so much.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  11. #791
    This thread needs to be renamed

    "Finally fire nerfs, frost gets nerfed after buffs too. Arcane still unscathed"

  12. #792
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    You could argue Arcane was buffed with the RoP change. Technically, all 3 specs COULD use it, and it is possible there may be situations where it will be optimal for the other 2 specs. This change does however, have a disproportionate benefit for Arcane.

  13. #793
    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    You could argue Arcane was buffed with the RoP change. Technically, all 3 specs COULD use it, and it is possible there may be situations where it will be optimal for the other 2 specs. This change does however, have a disproportionate benefit for Arcane.
    Technically using rop is a dmg increase over invocation. Since it's half the cast time. That's if you stand in it constantly, and after 5.4 it is much easier.

    I wouldn't say it's better for arcane just because it's the only one we use, because fire mages could pump extra dps out of it being able to scorch within the larger area..

    Technically fire and frost can get a lot of benefit out of it as well.


    However I do see what you are saying, and it's a complete flaw in design on blizzards part that we're forced to use one talent over another because we wouldn't be viable without it. It's hard to put an actual # on how much it'll increase our dps out-put, and I wouldn't mind a small nerf tbh. If it happens I won't be upset, and I know if it does happen it won't be anything major.

    If arcanes damage IS too high, then by all means nerf it. I just wish the fire mages saw nerfs through my eyes. If the damage is too high, then it deserves a nerf, even if it is the spec i'm playing.

  14. #794
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    Technically using rop is a dmg increase over invocation. Since it's half the cast time. That's if you stand in it constantly, and after 5.4 it is much easier.

    I wouldn't say it's better for arcane just because it's the only one we use, because fire mages could pump extra dps out of it being able to scorch within the larger area..

    Technically fire and frost can get a lot of benefit out of it as well.


    However I do see what you are saying, and it's a complete flaw in design on blizzards part that we're forced to use one talent over another because we wouldn't be viable without it. It's hard to put an actual # on how much it'll increase our dps out-put, and I wouldn't mind a small nerf tbh. If it happens I won't be upset, and I know if it does happen it won't be anything major.

    If arcanes damage IS too high, then by all means nerf it. I just wish the fire mages saw nerfs through my eyes. If the damage is too high, then it deserves a nerf, even if it is the spec i'm playing.
    The added benefit for Arcane that I was referring to is that they have the worst mobility and anything to increase general Mage mobility will impact Arcane the most. Then there is also the fact they are pigeon-holed into RoP already because it provides the most mana return.

    The only benefit Fire and Frost would see is the scenario where they don't leave the rune for the entire duration, in which case they get an extra gcd every minute.

    Not sure what you mean about Fire Mages being able to pump out extra dps while in the rune. Invocation allows you to scorch anywhere in the whole room within range of the boss. The only benefit as I said, is the extra gcd in a perfect situation.

    The difference with Fire nerfs, is they almost always impact actual game play, not just numbers. I don't have a huge problem with this nerf since it will have less impact on how the spec plays than others might have.
    Last edited by Methusula; 2013-08-22 at 08:24 PM.

  15. #795
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matuka View Post
    white T6 priest set
    Nice spam.

  16. #796
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    If arcanes damage IS too high, then by all means nerf it. I just wish the fire mages saw nerfs through my eyes. If the damage is too high, then it deserves a nerf, even if it is the spec i'm playing.
    Fire mages might see nerfs through your eyes if you hadn't gone on record 2 weeks before CALLING specifically for Fire to get nerfed so that you could play your favorite spec. I think we all knew a nerf was incoming, it just seems heavy handed on the signature spell(60% seems way too much at first glance) and one real DPS cooldown that Fire has. But it was inevitable I think. It just scales too well with all our stats. I think most people were expecting another Pyroblast nerf. As big of a problem that Combustion is, Pyro is still 35-40% of my average total damage on fights(maybe not fights like Council though).

  17. #797
    Bloodsail Admiral Frost1129's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    If arcanes damage IS too high, then by all means nerf it. I just wish the fire mages saw nerfs through my eyes. If the damage is too high, then it deserves a nerf, even if it is the spec i'm playing.
    Wat? Most people were in agreement that fire needed a nerf. Granted - A lot of initial data was obtained when the Amp trinket was absolutely game-breaking and heavily inflated Fire DPS. But still, people recognized that fire was scaling very well and should be brought in line. I think the only thoughts going through (reasonable) people's minds now are

    a) How much has the nerf really hurt fire. I.E. is it too low now? and
    b) With Combustion being our only real "fire" CD, what does this change do to damage the identity of the spec and how it feels to play?

    Some other questions might be how Frost is scaling with the new mastery changes (I haven't read much into Frost, I really dis-like it's current play style) and if Arcane may need some minor reductions to keep it in line, since it also scales well and now has had the burden of perfect RoP placement removed.

    I don't think either of these questions will be answered fully until the patch is released and the majority of mages here have a chance to raid and experience what Fire is in 5.4 vs. 5.3. But for now we can speculate! And speculate we have

  18. #798
    Hows the new frost mastery going to affect us pvp wise, doesn't look very bursty.

  19. #799
    Making it less bursty was entirely the point

  20. #800
    Also, re-thinking arcane's burstyness will help on quite a few fights. I know it'll help with immerseus, which'll be a joke anyway...But you can burn adds down quicker.

    Same with the third boss, when you go into your own realm it's multiple mobs. Fire needs a build up where as arcane can just blow it up. So just thinking off the first few fights it'll be helpful but not a must.

    I think a few other bosses it may help too, will need to re-look at a few.

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