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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    Basically proving my point, the whole stat inflation got out of whack beginning with Wrath.
    Doesn't prove shit. He killed it beacuse he could shadowstep a placable object and make the boss spend 1minute+ pathing around the instance to get to him.

    Stop talking about shit you are clearly clueless about.

  2. #202
    Pandaren Monk rederoin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keilden View Post
    Why does everyone who don't want the squish say stuff like: "Its just numbers why do you care?"
    If they didn't care about numbers like they say why are they against the squish?
    It takes development time.

  3. #203
    Pandaren Monk Rizendragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rederoin View Post
    It takes development time.
    Lol that is a pretty weaksauce argument. Especially since it'll be an expansion that brings it to fruition. They start working on the next expansion before the current one is out. That's at least 2 years of development time. With how large their teams are it shouldn't be very difficult for Blizzard to work something out to bring numbers to a more manageable level.
    Originally Posted by Bashiok
    The dishonest are want to identify dishonesty, even where it doesn't exist.

  4. #204
    My only beef with the current situation of wow is that as you level a new character it feels very much like an Asian mmo with how quickly everything scales.

  5. #205
    Pandaren Monk rederoin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizendragon View Post
    I was pointing out where it happened, how it happened, and why it should have been addressed already. It will help alleviate the bloat during an expansion. Right now if you're a fresh 90 and you were to go against a fully geared heroic raider you'd be doing 1/4th of his damage, and we're not even done with the expansion yet. That isn't how character progression should work really. This kind of disparity lends a hand to arena and pvp imbalances and it really puts the curve high for fresh alts and brand new players coming to the game mid-late expansion.
    A freshly dinged 80 did around 2k dps, while hc raiders at 80 could reach around 16k~ dps.

    So what changed?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizendragon View Post
    Lol that is a pretty weaksauce argument. Especially since it'll be an expansion that brings it to fruition. They start working on the next expansion before the current one is out. That's at least 2 years of development time. With how large their teams are it shouldn't be very difficult for Blizzard to work something out to bring numbers to a more manageable level.
    But its not needed yet. It might be needed in 10 or 15 years or so, but not right now.


    Why waste development time on a visual change that could cause a huge backslash?

  6. #206
    Im curious why, even after the item squish, that last red line rises so drastically faster than the rest, why can't it only rise a small amount like the rest....Yes though I really hope the item squish comes in the next expansion.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by rederoin View Post
    It takes development time.
    Blizzard seems to be waymore limited on artists as on system designers or programmers.

    But since approx. half of the Titan team joind WoW again, they will have enough manpower to get everything done and find the time for the item squish.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alesa View Post
    Im curious why, even after the item squish, that last red line rises so drastically faster than the rest, why can't it only rise a small amount like the rest....Yes though I really hope the item squish comes in the next expansion.
    Because there has to be a gap between the last expension gear and the new one, or there would be no reason to upgrade from the latest raidtiersets to the new heroic dungeon items.

  8. #208
    Pandaren Monk Rizendragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rederoin View Post
    A freshly dinged 80 did around 2k dps, while hc raiders at 80 could reach around 16k~ dps.

    So what changed?
    Wrath actually changed the status quo in regards to this. The stat disparity occurred because of the switch to 4 raiding formats and essentially making the difference in the bottom end of the tier to the top end being 26ilvls instead of 13. So we essentially had 6 tiers of gear in 4 raids. Without this we would have ended at 252 and around 8k DPS. Cata wouldn't have had to be as absurd as it was to compensate and hard reset the gear. It has lead to this happening mid PvP season:

    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...-in-a-day-now/

    Quite simply the stat inflation is bad for the health of the game and is broken as it is.
    Originally Posted by Bashiok
    The dishonest are want to identify dishonesty, even where it doesn't exist.

  9. #209
    The reason that the squish is so shunned, it's because people don't understand what it actually is.

    Imagine that you have 500k health and you do 100k dps.
    A random boss from the old content you LOVE to solo hits you for 10000 average and he has 2 million health.
    With your 100k dps you will kill him in 20 seconds and he will damage you for a total of 200000 damage, so you're left with 300k, which is 60%.

    Now imagine that now you have 5000 health, and you do 1000 dps.
    A random boss from the old content you still LOVE to solo now hits you for 100 damage and he has 20000 health.
    With your new 1000 dps you kill him in the same 20 seconds and he will damage you for a total of 2000 damage, so you're left with 3000 health, which is the same 60%.

    So tell me, what's so different about these two cases?

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Rizendragon View Post
    Wrath actually changed the status quo in regards to this. The stat disparity occurred because of the switch to 4 raiding formats and essentially making the difference in the bottom end of the tier to the top end being 26ilvls instead of 13. So we essentially had 6 tiers of gear in 4 raids. Without this we would have ended at 252 and around 8k DPS. Cata wouldn't have had to be as absurd as it was to compensate and hard reset the gear. It has lead to this happening mid PvP season:

    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...-in-a-day-now/

    Quite simply the stat inflation is bad for the health of the game and is broken as it is.
    I was about to write that but didn't find the right words, so fully agree.


    Basically Itemshquish doesn't make more than jst erase the huge gaps between gear and tiers of past content.

    Nothing more. So I don't understand why people complain about it, it just takes the game back to earth with numbers people can comprehend easier and which are easier to read and compare.

    Or do you realy find it fund to compare 23098 haste against 13987 masters + 14986 crit
    I personally woudl rather compare 212 haste against 103 mastery + 123 crit.
    Last edited by Talime; 2013-07-04 at 04:17 PM.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrantWave View Post
    Hm, true. By quite a significant exponent too. Showing how even using the (in comparison) tiny Int is still 2,000* off should get an idea of just how much this isn't an issue.

    Also, as Blizz have noted that caps are being reached, I'm using the lower common value for calculations.

    If we turn around and use Floats:

    Current max cap: 3.402823466 E + 38. Let's say, somehow, we break that.
    Let's now use a Double. New cap: 1.7976931348623158 E + 308
    first of all, it has been shown on raden that health uses signed 4 byte integers.

    second of all, using float for something like this is the dumbest idea ever.

  12. #212
    Pandaren Monk rederoin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizendragon View Post
    Wrath actually changed the status quo in regards to this. The stat disparity occurred because of the switch to 4 raiding formats and essentially making the difference in the bottom end of the tier to the top end being 26ilvls instead of 13. So we essentially had 6 tiers of gear in 4 raids. Without this we would have ended at 252 and around 8k DPS. Cata wouldn't have had to be as absurd as it was to compensate and hard reset the gear. It has lead to this happening mid PvP season:

    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...-in-a-day-now/

    Quite simply the stat inflation is bad for the health of the game and is broken as it is.
    You haven't explained why it is bad for the health of the game.

  13. #213
    Pandaren Monk Rizendragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theronus View Post
    The reason that the squish is so shunned, it's because people don't understand what it actually is.

    Imagine that you have 500k health and you do 100k dps.
    A random boss from the old content you LOVE to solo hits you for 10000 average and he has 2 million health.
    With your 100k dps you will kill him in 20 seconds and he will damage you for a total of 200000 damage, so you're left with 300k, which is 60%.

    Now imagine that now you have 5000 health, and you do 1000 dps.
    A random boss from the old content you still LOVE to solo now hits you for 100 damage and he has 20000 health.
    With your new 1000 dps you kill him in the same 20 seconds and he will damage you for a total of 2000 damage, so you're left with 3000 health, which is the same 60%.

    So tell me, what's so different about these two cases?
    The problem is that it wouldn't be a flat decrease across every thing it would close the gap on old content, but I don't think it would close it as drastically as people fear. At worst you'd need 3 people to go into MC after the squish to kill stuff. We used to do 15 man raids on Mannoroth in Wrath for fun. That is something I miss personally, because soloing raids just feels lame.
    Originally Posted by Bashiok
    The dishonest are want to identify dishonesty, even where it doesn't exist.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by asdfsaf View Post
    first of all, it has been shown on raden that health uses signed 4 byte integers.

    second of all, using float for something like this is the dumbest idea ever.
    First of all I have no idea of what raden is.

    Second how do you think that you handle spells coefficient like Hammer of Wrath?

  15. #215
    Pandaren Monk rederoin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizendragon View Post
    The problem is that it wouldn't be a flat decrease across every thing it would close the gap on old content, but I don't think it would close it as drastically as people fear. At worst you'd need 3 people to go into MC after the squish to kill stuff. We used to do 15 man raids on Mannoroth in Wrath for fun. That is something I miss personally, because soloing raids just feels lame.
    So you know it will affect the gameplay. I hope you also know many people acteally enjoy solo'ing raids for the challenge(tbc 25/wrath 10-man in cata, wrath-25 man/cata 10-man in cata).

    So why should blizzard add in a visual change(its nothing more than that untill it starts affecting the performance). That will remove content from certain players? It makes no sense.

  16. #216
    Pandaren Monk Rizendragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rederoin View Post
    You haven't explained why it is bad for the game.
    The link pretty much sums it up. The stat disparity between a fresh 90 and a geared 90 is now out of hand. They have had to put in systems to hyperspeed people to catch up. It isn't good for the game in the long run. Previously you had people that would sub for long terms and work at gearing without being stomped into oblivion until you got a fair amount of gear, but now there is no reason to set foot into an arena until you are fully geared in current season's gear. In Wrath my ilvl200 gear was still effective into season 7 before I noticed a big drop off in survivability; which coincidentally is around the same time the stat bloat started...
    Originally Posted by Bashiok
    The dishonest are want to identify dishonesty, even where it doesn't exist.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Rizendragon View Post
    The link pretty much sums it up. The stat disparity between a fresh 90 and a geared 90 is now out of hand. They have had to put in systems to hyperspeed people to catch up. It isn't good for the game in the long run. Previously you had people that would sub for long terms and work at gearing without being stomped into oblivion until you got a fair amount of gear, but now there is no reason to set foot into an arena until you are fully geared in current season's gear. In Wrath my ilvl200 gear was still effective into season 7 before I noticed a big drop off in survivability; which coincidentally is around the same time the stat bloat started...
    Where exactly do they get stomped?

  18. #218
    Pandaren Monk rederoin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizendragon View Post
    The link pretty much sums it up. The stat disparity between a fresh 90 and a geared 90 is now out of hand. They have had to put in systems to hyperspeed people to catch up. It isn't good for the game in the long run. Previously you had people that would sub for long terms and work at gearing without being stomped into oblivion until you got a fair amount of gear, but now there is no reason to set foot into an arena until you are fully geared in current season's gear. In Wrath my ilvl200 gear was still effective into season 7 before I noticed a big drop off in survivability; which coincidentally is around the same time the stat bloat started...
    I'm purely talking about PvE here.

    PvP can be fixed by other means than a squish. In other words, its not affect the health of the game. The difference between freshly dinged players and fully hc geared players has always been rather big.

  19. #219
    Pandaren Monk Rizendragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rederoin View Post
    So you know it will affect the gameplay. I hope you also know many people acteally enjoy solo'ing raids for the challenge(tbc 25/wrath 10-man in cata, wrath-25 man/cata 10-man in cata).

    So why should blizzard add in a visual change(its nothing more than that untill it starts affecting the performance). That will remove content from certain players? It makes no sense.
    Because this is a multi-player game at the core. Soloing old raids is a relatively new thing If you wanted to go back and do a quick farm run of OS at this point you might as well go in by yourself, but previously you would have found a group to do it. It's helping ruin the community by limiting party socialization which isn't the point of an MMO at all. That's a hallmark of a single player game. If i wanted a single player game I'd get a PS3 and play CoD or some such...
    Originally Posted by Bashiok
    The dishonest are want to identify dishonesty, even where it doesn't exist.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Rizendragon View Post
    Because this is a multi-player game at the core. Soloing old raids is a relatively new thing If you wanted to go back and do a quick farm run of OS at this point you might as well go in by yourself, but previously you would have found a group to do it. It's helping ruin the community by limiting party socialization which isn't the point of an MMO at all. That's a hallmark of a single player game. If i wanted a single player game I'd get a PS3 and play CoD or some such...
    Because getting weaker as time passes is part of a RPG? If I wanted to play a game with static numbers I'd play CoD too.

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