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  1. #381
    Meh I'm in favor of it but if it doesn't come oh well. I remember getting 10k crits for the first time. It was all "ZOMG NUMBARS!" now its just "Oh look I crit for 200k again. /yawn". But thats just me.
    It has been scientifically confirmed that if Eiffel was green; he would in fact die.

  2. #382
    "again" is the operative word, here. Anything becomes boring when it becomes routine. You didn't care a whole lot about 10k crits either once they became commonplace.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Unless they're on the receiving end of that gear discrepancy when someone globals them.
    Which has become irrelevant due to the PvP changes.

  3. #383
    I just don't see any valid reasons posted agains't the squish outside "MUH BIG NUMBARZ" and "Small numbers are "lame" (wat?"). It currently causes scaling issues, issues that will only become bigger as expansions are released. Balance feels borked, and honestly the game felt better when max level characters weren't olympian gods compared to everyone else. Pretty sure an entire 25man raid of lvl 89 players wouldn't be able to take an heroic ToT geared player by now (would also be a fun test).

    There's 0 downsides to squishing numbers. Upgrades will be more noticable and everything will feel more logical. They even said they wouldn't touch your ability to solo old raids (even if i think allowing that to happen was a massive mistake, guess its like so many other wrong design turn that you just can't back from anymore).

  4. #384
    Pandaren Monk Rizendragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    We're not even remotely close to that.


    What problem? That graph doesn't show any problems. Just two exponential and one linear graph. Exponential growth by itself is no more of a problem than linear growth is.
    The so-called "ideal" MMO would get serious problems with upgrades feeling pointless by expansion 4, though.

    I also don't see why you think people would get angry about getting bigger upgrades. They tend to react with the opposite feeling to that.
    It shows a scaling issue. That's something I haven't seen anyone that is against the squish actually address. The PvP changes haven't fixed scaling between geared players and entry level players. Being 1 season behind shouldn't put you at an almost automatic loss like it does now.
    Originally Posted by Bashiok
    The dishonest are want to identify dishonesty, even where it doesn't exist.

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by Zergal View Post
    It currently causes scaling issues, issues that will only become bigger as expansions are released. Balance feels borked, and honestly the game felt better when max level characters weren't olympian gods compared to everyone else.
    That's due to iLvl differences within the expansion and has nothing to do with the squish.

    At it's most basic, Blizzard wants to implement the squish by essentially ignoring raid gear for quest progression, but only up to the second to last expansion. After that, it's business as usual. As the scaling issues are due to gear progression during an expansion, not between expansions, they won't be affected by this at all.
    Pretty sure an entire 25man raid of lvl 89 players wouldn't be able to take an heroic ToT geared player by now (would also be a fun test).
    I doubt that. They'd probably turn him into a fine mist, fast. All the gear in the world doesn't help you when you can't act.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizendragon View Post
    It shows a scaling issue. That's something I haven't seen anyone that is against the squish actually address. The PvP changes haven't fixed scaling between geared players and entry level players. Being 1 season behind shouldn't put you at an almost automatic loss like it does now.
    Which is due to item level differences within a single expansion. Which a squish won't affect. You want Blizzard to lower the iLvl difference between tiers, because that's the only thing that affects scaling on the gear side.

    Also, as said before, exponential growth is not an "issue" by itself.

  6. #386
    Banned The Penguin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Solo'ing raids is not an intended part of the game.

    Also:
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Will an item level squish affect our ability to solo older content? If it doesn't, I have no problem with it.
    The goal is it will not affect your ability to solo older content. (Source)
    Completely disagree. It was also already committed to, read the article "Fourty to the Power of One."

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Lukahn View Post
    Completely disagree. It was also already committed to, read the article "Fourty to the Power of One."
    On the entire internet, Google only comes up with 1 result (even with proper spelling) and it has nothing to do with anything.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  8. #388
    Dreadlord Geodew's Avatar
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    I'm on a relatively high-end computer and my computer sometimes freezes up in combat, almost always in LFR or on world bosses. It seems everyone agrees that its main cause is recount churning all the numbers of everyone's damage and healing this expansion (Stampede making it even worse, partially due to a glitch). With 40+ man world bosses and bigger numbers, this was the biggest issue right at launch, before Recount optimized its routines, if you guys remember that. Recount is better optimized now and whatnot. However, as damage and healing gets bigger, it will keep getting slightly worse.

    Eventually, the average person will not have a processor powerful enough to run a real-time DPS/HPS logger like Recount.

    Thus, I am for an item squish whenever Blizzard feels it is appropriate. If it means I freeze up less? Definitely.

  9. #389
    Big numbers break immersion. Humans are bad at relating to big numbers, which isn't surprising as we encounter and use small quantities all the time. Anyone new coming to this game must look in dis belief at the ludicrous numbers being used.

  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by Geodew View Post
    Eventually, the average person will not have a processor powerful enough to run a real-time DPS/HPS logger like Recount.
    Which is a problem why exactly? For the most part, these addons add little to the game anyway. It might actually improve the game for many by getting rid of "look-i'm-better" recount posters.
    Quote Originally Posted by NigelGurney View Post
    Big numbers break immersion. Humans are bad at relating to big numbers, which isn't surprising as we encounter and use small quantities all the time. Anyone new coming to this game must look in dis belief at the ludicrous numbers being used.
    Bullshit. Humans deal just fine with them, and the immersion breaking isn't any worse than that of there being numbers at all.

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by PureColour View Post
    It doesn't matter. It will still take the same amount of time to kill Raid bosses in PVE and players in PVP. The only things that will be come easier, are soloing older content(Which is awesome).
    Of course it matters. Not only is it a matter of tastefulness, it's also a question of visibility. Numbers in the sixth or seventh digits (or more, at this rate) are incredibly untidy and fit poorly into user interfaces. Each expansion more or less triples stuff like health, damage and item stats. At this rate, the numbers are already so high that they don't function optimally with UIs and with a gameplay structure that employs a lot of fast, rapidly-scrolling information. A numbers squish is absolutely necessary -- overdue, in fact; it should have happened in MoP.

  12. #392
    That's easily solvable through simple UI adjustions. No need to do a squish.

  13. #393
    Eventually, the average person will not have a processor powerful enough to run a real-time DPS/HPS logger like Recount.
    I think you vaaaastly overestimate the computing power needed to store numbers.
    And freezing? I think your computer has some bigger issues than an addon logging numbers

    Anyway, regarding the squish. There still hasn't been anyone to explain how they can do a squish without making max levels relatively weaker (soloing) than a lowbie, since 1-60 would require far less of a squish (if any) than the expansions.

    As I mentioned earlier, if we reduced everything by a factor of 10 for simplicity, classic Ragnaros would have 110k health. Max levels have lost 90% power, but the lower you go in levels, the less power has been lost. Level 60s soloing 60 raids? Point being that a non-linear squish (how ironic) would cause some very odd side-effects. And for what...

    Seriously, I'd rather see some UI slider that could reduce numbers as you level (0% visual number reduction at level 60, 3% at 61, 90% at 90) that'd mitigate the surges in numbers caused by the itemlevel inflation as you jump expansions.
    Numbers appear smaller without risking balance issues. I wish I knew how the internal squish worked, because I doubt it was anything but max level testing.
    Last edited by MasterHamster; 2013-07-06 at 10:53 AM.
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  14. #394
    Elemental Lord Hyve's Avatar
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    I've always been a fan of the Item Squish, and I think it'll be a good thing if it does occur.

    One of the main arguments against the Item Squish is simply that numbers don't matter, pretend they're smaller. Well, numbers do matter, and the same could be said in reverse, why not pretend your 100 Crit was 100,000?

    I much prefer the numbers of late Burning Crusade through to Wrath of the Lich King. Cataclysm saw the inflation of our Health artistically to help slow down PvP, but it hasn't worked, and sadly they've retained that artificial increase in Health, and carried it over to some other areas as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    I think you vaaaastly overestimate the computing power needed to store numbers.

    And freezing? I think your computer has some bigger issues than an addon logging numbers
    I think you seriously under-estimate just how much processing is going on behind the scenes. Some fights are already causing issues, such as Lei-Shen / Heroic Sha of Fear when using abilities like Stampede. The fact is, the numbers are getting too high for lore purposes, the fact that each expansion we become exponentially more powerful is just stupid. More powerful yes, but at this point in time, we're far more powerful then Deathwing, and only last year he was a catastrophic threat to Azeroth!

    The numbers are also getting too high for some computers. Many of them could do with upgrading, but even those with decent computers have reported some FPS / Issues on certain fights where the numbers are coming out of their ying-yangs!

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    The numbers are also getting too high for some computers. Many of them could do with upgrading, but even those with decent computers have reported some FPS / Issues on certain fights where the numbers are coming out of their ying-yangs!
    Those problems almost always pop up when there's a whole lot going on. Which is completely unrelated to the numbers being big.
    Calculating two numbers takes far more processing power than calculating one number that is twice the size.

  16. #396
    I personally want an item-squish. I hate it when I crit for 2.9 million damage. It feels utterly stupid. I also hate pumping out 300k HPS and spiking 1 million HPS too.

  17. #397
    The Patient Paladinne1's Avatar
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    I agree that it is weird to have numbers like we do.

    At the same time I find it hilarious how much more stats have changed in only 4 expansions. If only they didn't make the stat change quite so ludicrous in Cataclysm. Perhaps we'd now only be seeing numbers we saw halfway through Cataclysm rather than what we see now.
    [sic]

  18. #398
    If it was implemented properly I really only see it simplifying theory crafting and the like. Yes, its fun to feel like you grow more powerful each expansion but at what point does it become too bloated?

  19. #399
    Numbers don't get bloated.
    They just get larger.
    Last edited by LazyJones; 2013-07-06 at 11:38 AM.
    If you chose rock as a weapon, in order to beat a pair of scissors, don't start whining when you get pwn'd by a piece of paper.

  20. #400
    I think you seriously under-estimate just how much processing is going on behind the scenes.
    I don't shrug off the gigantic amount of calculations that is being carried out every second...
    It's just that another digit in an integer doesn't make a nanosecond of a difference.
    The game would not run faster just because you reduced the numbers by 99%, it's still integers being compared and calculated.

    And lore reasons? Come on. Only thing you need for the narrative is bosses being vastly more powerful than a player of the appropriate level. Then after an expansion, gameplay reasons overshadow such things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    The numbers are also getting too high for some computers. Many of them could do with upgrading, but even those with decent computers have reported some FPS / Issues on certain fights where the numbers are coming out of their ying-yangs!
    You'd have to go back a few decades to find a computer that would noticeably slow down just because numbers are adding additional digits.

    At the same time I find it hilarious how much more stats have changed in only 4 expansions. If only they didn't make the stat change quite so ludicrous in Cataclysm. Perhaps we'd now only be seeing numbers we saw halfway through Cataclysm rather than what we see now.
    And you know why they did that? Because t7 was cleared in Sunwell gear.
    Either stats jump or things gets weird.
    Last edited by MasterHamster; 2013-07-06 at 11:53 AM.
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