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  1. #381
    I'm on a relatively high-end computer and my computer sometimes freezes up in combat, almost always in LFR or on world bosses. It seems everyone agrees that its main cause is recount churning all the numbers of everyone's damage and healing this expansion (Stampede making it even worse, partially due to a glitch). With 40+ man world bosses and bigger numbers, this was the biggest issue right at launch, before Recount optimized its routines, if you guys remember that. Recount is better optimized now and whatnot. However, as damage and healing gets bigger, it will keep getting slightly worse.

    Eventually, the average person will not have a processor powerful enough to run a real-time DPS/HPS logger like Recount.

    Thus, I am for an item squish whenever Blizzard feels it is appropriate. If it means I freeze up less? Definitely.

  2. #382
    Deleted
    Big numbers break immersion. Humans are bad at relating to big numbers, which isn't surprising as we encounter and use small quantities all the time. Anyone new coming to this game must look in dis belief at the ludicrous numbers being used.

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by Geodew View Post
    Eventually, the average person will not have a processor powerful enough to run a real-time DPS/HPS logger like Recount.
    Which is a problem why exactly? For the most part, these addons add little to the game anyway. It might actually improve the game for many by getting rid of "look-i'm-better" recount posters.
    Quote Originally Posted by NigelGurney View Post
    Big numbers break immersion. Humans are bad at relating to big numbers, which isn't surprising as we encounter and use small quantities all the time. Anyone new coming to this game must look in dis belief at the ludicrous numbers being used.
    Bullshit. Humans deal just fine with them, and the immersion breaking isn't any worse than that of there being numbers at all.

  4. #384
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by PureColour View Post
    It doesn't matter. It will still take the same amount of time to kill Raid bosses in PVE and players in PVP. The only things that will be come easier, are soloing older content(Which is awesome).
    Of course it matters. Not only is it a matter of tastefulness, it's also a question of visibility. Numbers in the sixth or seventh digits (or more, at this rate) are incredibly untidy and fit poorly into user interfaces. Each expansion more or less triples stuff like health, damage and item stats. At this rate, the numbers are already so high that they don't function optimally with UIs and with a gameplay structure that employs a lot of fast, rapidly-scrolling information. A numbers squish is absolutely necessary -- overdue, in fact; it should have happened in MoP.

  5. #385
    That's easily solvable through simple UI adjustions. No need to do a squish.

  6. #386
    Legendary! MasterHamster's Avatar
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    Eventually, the average person will not have a processor powerful enough to run a real-time DPS/HPS logger like Recount.
    I think you vaaaastly overestimate the computing power needed to store numbers.
    And freezing? I think your computer has some bigger issues than an addon logging numbers

    Anyway, regarding the squish. There still hasn't been anyone to explain how they can do a squish without making max levels relatively weaker (soloing) than a lowbie, since 1-60 would require far less of a squish (if any) than the expansions.

    As I mentioned earlier, if we reduced everything by a factor of 10 for simplicity, classic Ragnaros would have 110k health. Max levels have lost 90% power, but the lower you go in levels, the less power has been lost. Level 60s soloing 60 raids? Point being that a non-linear squish (how ironic) would cause some very odd side-effects. And for what...

    Seriously, I'd rather see some UI slider that could reduce numbers as you level (0% visual number reduction at level 60, 3% at 61, 90% at 90) that'd mitigate the surges in numbers caused by the itemlevel inflation as you jump expansions.
    Numbers appear smaller without risking balance issues. I wish I knew how the internal squish worked, because I doubt it was anything but max level testing.
    Last edited by MasterHamster; 2013-07-06 at 10:53 AM.
    Active WoW player Jan 2006 - Aug 2020
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    Nothing lasts forever, as they say.
    But at least I can casually play Classic and remember when MMORPGs were good.

  7. #387
    I've always been a fan of the Item Squish, and I think it'll be a good thing if it does occur.

    One of the main arguments against the Item Squish is simply that numbers don't matter, pretend they're smaller. Well, numbers do matter, and the same could be said in reverse, why not pretend your 100 Crit was 100,000?

    I much prefer the numbers of late Burning Crusade through to Wrath of the Lich King. Cataclysm saw the inflation of our Health artistically to help slow down PvP, but it hasn't worked, and sadly they've retained that artificial increase in Health, and carried it over to some other areas as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    I think you vaaaastly overestimate the computing power needed to store numbers.

    And freezing? I think your computer has some bigger issues than an addon logging numbers
    I think you seriously under-estimate just how much processing is going on behind the scenes. Some fights are already causing issues, such as Lei-Shen / Heroic Sha of Fear when using abilities like Stampede. The fact is, the numbers are getting too high for lore purposes, the fact that each expansion we become exponentially more powerful is just stupid. More powerful yes, but at this point in time, we're far more powerful then Deathwing, and only last year he was a catastrophic threat to Azeroth!

    The numbers are also getting too high for some computers. Many of them could do with upgrading, but even those with decent computers have reported some FPS / Issues on certain fights where the numbers are coming out of their ying-yangs!

  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    The numbers are also getting too high for some computers. Many of them could do with upgrading, but even those with decent computers have reported some FPS / Issues on certain fights where the numbers are coming out of their ying-yangs!
    Those problems almost always pop up when there's a whole lot going on. Which is completely unrelated to the numbers being big.
    Calculating two numbers takes far more processing power than calculating one number that is twice the size.

  9. #389
    I personally want an item-squish. I hate it when I crit for 2.9 million damage. It feels utterly stupid. I also hate pumping out 300k HPS and spiking 1 million HPS too.

  10. #390
    Deleted
    I agree that it is weird to have numbers like we do.

    At the same time I find it hilarious how much more stats have changed in only 4 expansions. If only they didn't make the stat change quite so ludicrous in Cataclysm. Perhaps we'd now only be seeing numbers we saw halfway through Cataclysm rather than what we see now.

  11. #391
    Deleted
    If it was implemented properly I really only see it simplifying theory crafting and the like. Yes, its fun to feel like you grow more powerful each expansion but at what point does it become too bloated?

  12. #392
    Deleted
    Numbers don't get bloated.
    They just get larger.
    Last edited by mmoc7805351bd4; 2013-07-06 at 11:38 AM.

  13. #393
    Legendary! MasterHamster's Avatar
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    I think you seriously under-estimate just how much processing is going on behind the scenes.
    I don't shrug off the gigantic amount of calculations that is being carried out every second...
    It's just that another digit in an integer doesn't make a nanosecond of a difference.
    The game would not run faster just because you reduced the numbers by 99%, it's still integers being compared and calculated.

    And lore reasons? Come on. Only thing you need for the narrative is bosses being vastly more powerful than a player of the appropriate level. Then after an expansion, gameplay reasons overshadow such things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    The numbers are also getting too high for some computers. Many of them could do with upgrading, but even those with decent computers have reported some FPS / Issues on certain fights where the numbers are coming out of their ying-yangs!
    You'd have to go back a few decades to find a computer that would noticeably slow down just because numbers are adding additional digits.

    At the same time I find it hilarious how much more stats have changed in only 4 expansions. If only they didn't make the stat change quite so ludicrous in Cataclysm. Perhaps we'd now only be seeing numbers we saw halfway through Cataclysm rather than what we see now.
    And you know why they did that? Because t7 was cleared in Sunwell gear.
    Either stats jump or things gets weird.
    Last edited by MasterHamster; 2013-07-06 at 11:53 AM.
    Active WoW player Jan 2006 - Aug 2020
    Occasional WoW Classic Andy since.
    Nothing lasts forever, as they say.
    But at least I can casually play Classic and remember when MMORPGs were good.

  14. #394
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Paladinne1 View Post
    I agree that it is weird to have numbers like we do.
    Weird?

    ... Hm.

    Maybe it's my interest in astronomy, but I can't get over how pathetic is seems to me, when people can't handle numbers with more digits than they have on one hand. Pathetic in light of the vast numbers other people have no problem juggling. The numbers in WoW are NOT large. They're not even impressive. Not even weird. In my book.

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by Geodew View Post
    Eventually, the average person will not have a processor powerful enough to run a real-time DPS/HPS logger like Recount.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    I think you seriously under-estimate just how much processing is going on behind the scenes. Some fights are already causing issues, such as Lei-Shen / Heroic Sha of Fear when using abilities like Stampede. The fact is, the numbers are getting too high for lore purposes, the fact that each expansion we become exponentially more powerful is just stupid. More powerful yes, but at this point in time, we're far more powerful then Deathwing, and only last year he was a catastrophic threat to Azeroth!

    The numbers are also getting too high for some computers. Many of them could do with upgrading, but even those with decent computers have reported some FPS / Issues on certain fights where the numbers are coming out of their ying-yangs!
    Do you understand how a processor works?

  16. #396
    Deleted
    Weird?

    ... Hm.

    Maybe it's my interest in astronomy, but I can't get over how pathetic is seems to me, when people can't handle numbers with more digits than they have on one hand. Pathetic in light of the vast numbers other people have no problem juggling. The numbers in WoW are NOT large. They're not even impressive. Not even weird. In my book.
    I didn't mean it like that. The 'weird' bit was mainly to describe how rapid the jump was, (we went form tanks having 50-60k HP to having 160k to then having 500k). I don't actually care what the numbers are; like I said, I enjoy seeing the big numbers from time-to-time (particularly when it comes to self-healing >.<).

  17. #397
    That's not weird at all. It about triples each step.

    Weird would be going 10k -> 50k -> 150k -> 2.9M.

  18. #398
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Bullshit. Humans deal just fine with them, and the immersion breaking isn't any worse than that of there being numbers at all.
    That must be why people who deal with large numbers as their profession use scientific notation and limit the significant figures... (even when not having to manually write the numbers).

    What this limitation is actually about is countable numbers. Numbers like how many apples are in a bunch. These are the types of numbers human brains are wired to understand and conceptualize because processing these amounts are experienced all the time. I forget what the limit is, but beyond a certain amount, our brains turn to mush. I think it's like 30-40 where a human brain starts to have trouble distinguishing between amounts. Like if someone shows you 5 objects, your brain can easily and quickly determine there to be 5 objects. If someone shows you 100 objects, your brain can't process that and you have to count them or make a guess. Or if someone shows you 2 sets, 1 with 38 objects and another with 40 objects, your brain can't quickly determine which has more. There have been countless studies on this.

    Similarly, there is something called the subitizing limit, which is about 4. It's the number of objects the brain can determine quickly at a glance when they are flashed briefly. This is very relevant to UI design in terms of objects on the screen and how many digits the numbers presented have.

    There are also studies on the limits of working memory. On average, humans have a working memory capacity of 7 ± 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    That's easily solvable through simple UI adjustions. No need to do a squish.
    Like the UI adjustments Blizzard already did with K's and M's? Turns out, Blizzard doesn't see that as a long-term solution and the squish is still on the table.

  19. #399
    Deleted
    I'm pretty sure Blizzard said it is going to happen, but the item squish didn't happen this expansion because of the talent changes, and it felt too weird to do both at the same time.

    There comes a point when the current client can't handle the numbers if I'm correct (the other reason for item squish).

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Actually, it will do the exact opposite. It will make soloing harder, while having no practical effect on current content.
    Unless we actually run into serious problems with CPU load, there is no real reson to bother with it.
    This. THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS. Frigging stop it with the stupid item squish garbage already, dammit. Stop trying to make it difficult to solo old content.

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