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  1. #41
    Of course i'm very happy with the glyph, but it's just a silly way to admit that there is some problem with target switching for rogues and most comes from combo points being on the target.

    I used to think like you, combo points are one of our signatures! but it just does not work anymore since many classes have similar resources but without the bad bits of it. I'm not saying they should simply put them on player, that would be the easy-lazy solution, but they should do something more than a glyph, something more imaginative that keeps that uniqueness and that flavor without making us feel that we have the old obsolete version of the shiny new resource system that many others have.

  2. #42
    I don't like them.

    Let me rephrase that - they're nice. But do they not completely disregard the reason we even had the glyph-changes we had going from Cata to MOP? So we go from having a few mandatory glyphs, to having lots of irrelevant and useless glyphs, and back to having a few mandatory glyphs... How does that make sense?

    Not to mention that these glyphs are mostly the fixes we've called for since the start of MOP - CP's on the rogue and the "removal" of Sanguinary Vein... And as we all foresaw, here they are, as band-aids...

  3. #43
    The fix is easy though, just make the points feel like they are still on target by making no UI changes (still around the portrait), this way its like you're using the redirect glyph, just without having to waste a gcd (when in reality the CP are on you).

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Wootylicious View Post
    Recuperate should be baseline passive..
    They should all be baseline passive lol...

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Tolkien View Post
    The fix is easy though, just make the points feel like they are still on target by making no UI changes (still around the portrait), this way its like you're using the redirect glyph, just without having to waste a gcd (when in reality the CP are on you).
    Too bad we have to push another button to transfer combo points contributing to the button bloat, i have no idea of how i could play without naga.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    Rogues have that skill of being able to target switch and pump rupture on multiple targets, keeping up poisons on multiple targets etc. Does it really matter that much if CPs are on the target instead of on you with redirect on GCD now. I think, personally, they've just solved the problem with rogues without redesigning the class.
    The main thing that annoys me about it is the fact that so many mobs in raids when they die they disappear and so do your combo points. I wouldn't really care if it wasn't for that but that's pretty annoying with how often it happens.
    Last edited by wow; 2013-07-05 at 04:53 PM.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by D3athsting View Post
    Too bad we have to push another button to transfer combo points contributing to the button bloat, i have no idea of how i could play without naga.
    A G500 Logitech :P I have 50 keybinds just on my mouse with CTRL/ALT/SHIFT variations and I still have room for more. It's also way more comfortable than the Naga mouse IMO.

    Kind of sucks all this stuff isn't baseline. :/ Sanguinary Vein is pretty much required for PVP. I thought they were trying to avoid the whole "Requirement" thing?

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zafire View Post
    A G500 Logitech :P I have 50 keybinds just on my mouse with CTRL/ALT/SHIFT variations and I still have room for more. It's also way more comfortable than the Naga mouse IMO.

    Kind of sucks all this stuff isn't baseline. :/ Sanguinary Vein is pretty much required for PVP. I thought they were trying to avoid the whole "Requirement" thing?
    I also have a G500 but I don't use the mouse macro's because I don't know how to use it. I honestly just use MWU, MWD, MM and the two side buttons as binds as well as using ALT/Shift for them too. 90% of my binds are on the keyboard. Slice and Dice being on MWD is very comfortable though. I feel like some abilities are just meant to be mouse buttons.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    They are very nice additions indeed.

    Standard setup i would take is:
    - vendetta/AR/hemo depending on spec
    - FoK
    - Feint.

    The first glyph is more or less brainless - it adds utility/raw dps to the specific spec.
    FoK is useful apart for aoe also for when you don't have sunder applications in your raid - a gcd for FoK is surely better than a gcd for expose armor.
    Feint + elusiveness for the best dmg reduction we have.
    I was wondering how they were going to get rid of Expose armor. They are looking for ways to chuck buttons; and this is a pretty obvious skill to do away with. I figured they'd bake it into something; FoK makes a lot of sense and gives us some utility. Smart design, IMO. However, god help me if I miss a FoK application since I actually must put up expose armor for my raid. I'll have to start again and build to 3.

    Love glyph of redirect. I bet this is their way of seeing how much of an impact 0 recharge redirect will have. It's about time. I don't think they will give us combo points on a rogue but a redirect like this would be fantastic.

    I'd probably take the redirect glyph becuase every time I do a freakin' AoE pack i seem to lose track of my combo points.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Demeia View Post
    I was wondering how they were going to get rid of Expose armor. They are looking for ways to chuck buttons; and this is a pretty obvious skill to do away with. I figured they'd bake it into something; FoK makes a lot of sense and gives us some utility. Smart design, IMO. However, god help me if I miss a FoK application since I actually must put up expose armor for my raid. I'll have to start again and build to 3.
    I think you are making a rather significant mistake here. As as pointed out earlier (shadowboy I think?), the glyph that adds WA to FoK is inferior to the glyph of EA and certainly won't replace it. The FoK glyph was likely added due to hunter's having the only AE WA debuff. In single target, 25 energy for 3 WA charges and 1 cp is leagues better than 105 energy for 3 WA charges and 3 cp. 80 energy > damage from 3 casts of FoK.

    Now on a fight with a lot of AE to make use out of AE WA, you would probably not take both the fok glyph and the EA glyph, so that would be 75 energy for 3 cp versus 105 for 3cp and damage from 3 casts of FoK which is probably worth just FoK'ing.
    Last edited by Sesshou; 2013-07-06 at 10:02 PM.

  11. #51
    Finally we get to keep up SV with hemo again, it only took them like 8 months.
    Last edited by Lemons; 2013-07-07 at 12:58 AM.

  12. #52
    It is funny with the glyph of redirect, since Vanilla people have been caterwauling for combo points to stack on a rogue, blizzard have said no on every occasion, citing that its the central mechanic of rogues to build up momentum against a target, and unleash the final attack etc etc.

    They have been such strong opponents of it for so long, that if they were to give it to us people would go on and on and on about how long it took them to much such a simple decision, the glyph accomplishes that, without them having to admit CPs work better as a resource on the rogue.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinob1 View Post
    I can't see it anywhere specified. I'm wondering what the chances are that the redirect glyph is a minor glyph. 5-10%?
    None of these would be minor glyphs. Minor glyphs are cosmetic or, in rare cases, offer a second but equivalent way of doing something.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    I don't like them.

    Let me rephrase that - they're nice. But do they not completely disregard the reason we even had the glyph-changes we had going from Cata to MOP? So we go from having a few mandatory glyphs, to having lots of irrelevant and useless glyphs, and back to having a few mandatory glyphs... How does that make sense?
    I brought that up a little but... which of these are mandatory?

    The SV glyph probably is. Not because you want to drop rupture from your rotation, but because it will absolutely prevent any time of being on boss without rupture, and even give us better ramp up.

    But, combat already has a mandatory glyph. Mutilate kind of does- I don't even use the vendetta glyph (it makes the first vendetta weaker because your big threat stuff applies in a smaller window, like opening trinkets and blades, and I don't know if the catch up is guaranteed, shadowcraft or not), but many rogue just use it and consider it as such. Adding one to sub isn't the worst thing ever.

    I would say that the feint glyph is so strong that I never drop it unless I'm in some situation where I need cheat death or leeching poison- but I have a reasonably high uptime for feint, so the glyph is honestly a dps glyph for me.

    But do the others really feel mandatory? How many fights this tier would you definitely use the redirect glyph?


    I also remember hearing how the smoke bomb glyph was going to be mandatory when smoke bomb gained the raid cooldown usage. While I certainly actually USE the glyph now, I don't consider it such.




    The redirect glyph seems too powerful for a glyph, though. Even if it doesn't feel mandatory, it's still like, "here's a one minute ability, down to 0". Either the base cooldown on redirect needs to be smaller, or the magnitude of the glyph smaller, or honestly both.



    I also predicted, based on this philosophy, that a later PTR patch will take these "too good" glyphs and attach a "but you get stabbed in the arse" feature to them. For instance, redirect may incur a small energy cost, making it a choice (or a large energy cost, making it a shit choice for bad players only, but we'll see). The SV glyph in particular runs the risk of letting a bad sub pve rogue run only slice and dice, taking away the meat of the spec (which to be fair, was rendered mostly into soypatty with MoP- it was a very thrilling spec to avoid collision in Cata, but is simpler now). It also is a buff to rogue PvP, which I think is probably needed. I QQed pretty much nonstop when they added this for PvP -and- PvE reasons- in PvP we are always CP starved, and the MoP changes added two whole things to maintain in PvP, while not actually doing much to nerf rogue PvP burst- giving us one season where we were absolute trash, then a half season where we had wild synergy with insta-gib mechanics (but they caught that halfway through, unlike the whole sucking for last season thing).


    So I think the SV glyph would get a nerf to the damage done by SV in total, such that it would be unattractive in PvE, and maybe iffy in PvP. But I hope it goes live like that, to be honest. It's very mother-may-I in PvP, and our sustained is so laughable because of that.
    Last edited by Verain; 2013-07-07 at 02:41 AM.

  14. #54
    I don't agree with your opinions about the redirect glyph. The glyph (or change) is long overdue. If they weren't going to make combo points on the player instead of the target, this is a good alternative and fine as is. It obviously wasn't competitive enough to be a talent, but as a glyph is perfect since we were lacking viable glyphs for PVE; especially as Assassination.

    I do not think they will nerf this. In-fact, I feel this is a bit of a bandaid. GC stated Rogues won't be totally reworked but they are looking at giving us attention going forward via class mechanics.
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  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post

    I also predicted, based on this philosophy, that a later PTR patch will take these "too good" glyphs and attach a "but you get stabbed in the arse" feature to them.
    The glyphs already have a downside to them you can't run everything you'd want at once and I'm pretty sure that the point in having that many that you'd want at once. And none of them are "too good" however the hemo glyph is something that should be baseline to the spec as it use to be and not a glyph a spec should function right baseline not because of a glyph.

    And before someone tries to compare with say the ar or vendetta glyphs those increase dps but don't really change the specs much overall. Yes the hemo glyph will increase dps on short lived targets and often target switches. But the big thing here is the hemo glyph changes how the spec plays in everything it does. Say you drop the ar glyph dps will go down but combat will still play the same from dailies to pvp to raiding. Hemo glyph changes how sub will play and feel in all of those.
    Last edited by wow; 2013-07-07 at 05:28 AM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Alesa View Post
    They should all be baseline passive lol...
    Particularly the Hemo one. No spec should have to Glyph just to make their main attack viable.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by achromatickang View Post
    Particularly the Hemo one. No spec should have to Glyph just to make their main attack viable.
    This will not actually up the dps of a properly played sub spec. Sub's main attack is backstab. Hemo is viable entirely without that- hemo's bleed means that you can and should press hemo sometimes, even if behind the boss. More importantly, you are ALREADY keeping hemo up (mostly without effort). And it will STILL be a dps gain to play just about the exact same as on live. I don't think you know what you are talking about.

    The glyphs already have a downside to them you can't run everything you'd want at once and I'm pretty sure that the point in having that many that you'd want at once.
    Many of our glyphs are things like "evasion lasts longer". Those are pretty niche. Then there's useless ones like "ambush has a 10 yard range", but there are also VERY good ones that come up time to time, such as "take 40% less physical when cloaked". I think the goal is that most of the glyphs be about in the range from glyph of evasion to glyph of cloak, with stuff like glyph of adren rush being kinda mistakes.

    And before someone tries to compare with say the ar or vendetta glyphs those increase dps but don't really change the specs much overall.
    Not only was that comparison already made in the post you were replying too, but also several times throughout the thread (including my first post IIRC).


    The hemo glyph doesn't change the spec much in pve. But it really changes it in pvp a lot.


    Hemo glyph changes how sub will play and feel in all of those.
    I disagree with raiding being much different. You'll still want to rupture.

    Here's my problem with the "it's supposed to be baseline" mentality.

    REMEMBER:

    Sub used to need to keep up recuperate and slice and dice. Rupture was ALSO a debuff that did poor damage, but you could maintain it indefinitely by landing a 5 point combo point somewhere before it ran out. SangV was pretty much always up, and a hemo assured it.

    This had some downsides. Rupture felt weak, because it was. SangV was just "rogue deals more damage", with the VERY minor caveat that you had to hit something with a bleed if solo.
    It had some things Blizzard probably thought were downsides, but no rogues. Slice and Dice could be dropped out of PvP entirely, meaning that rogues maintained a decently strong defensive buff full time, instead of just when they wanted to mitigate pressure. You had to nail the rupture refresh, which put a timer on you, but the bigger part was landing the recup and the slice optimally, which wasn't simple, so Blizzard had a spec that was harder to play than the other rogue specs (they MIGHT be ok with this).

    THEN we went into mop, which wrecked all this.

    First, the energy regen was moved to slice and dice, which is silly. This removed recup from our offensive rotation, replacing it with slice even in pvp. Second, they subtracted hemo and all other things besides tempest, rupture, and garrote. This meant that rupture replaced recuperate- now you needed both of those going to do acceptable damage. Rupture was also buffed- without it being an autorefresh, it's actually decent damage now.


    But if you JUST give back the SangV thing without anything else, you run the risk of PvE sub rogues being played in kinda derp mode without too much loss of dps. I think this is better than the current obnoxious burst window setup in PvP (you often get your sangV bonus from garrote, and your sustained is ass).


    Anyway, whatever, gimme the glyph if it goes that way. But I'd prefer that the older rotation be restored to some degree- though just make rupture worth pressing, thanks, don't make it crappy and bribe me with auto-refresh or castrated damage if it falls. Just make it be so much more than eviscerate that if you leave it out you do less damage BECAUSE RUPTURE DOES DAMAGE. See, that's a great model!

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    This will not actually up the dps of a properly played sub spec. Sub's main attack is backstab. Hemo is viable entirely without that- hemo's bleed means that you can and should press hemo sometimes, even if behind the boss. More importantly, you are ALREADY keeping hemo up (mostly without effort). And it will STILL be a dps gain to play just about the exact same as on live. I don't think you know what you are talking about.
    I'm actually thinking about PVP specifically. Those 4-8K Hemos just currently don't warrant the energy costs.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    I would say that the feint glyph is so strong that I never drop it unless I'm in some situation where I need cheat death or leeching poison- but I have a reasonably high uptime for feint, so the glyph is honestly a dps glyph for me.
    Out of interest which fights do you need that much feint uptime on? That glyph is useful for when you have a sustained barrage of AOE. But to be honest only 1 fight springs to mind. Ra-den.

    I like the glyph but I don't feel like I need it, same as glyph of sprint.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by achromatickang View Post
    I'm actually thinking about PVP specifically. Those 4-8K Hemos just currently don't warrant the energy costs.
    Well, this won't really change anything about that. You hemo in PvP primarily for CPs, and hemo will still be worth using. The big difference is that you'll be able to eviscerate a moderate health target instead of rupture them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    Out of interest which fights do you need that much feint uptime on?
    I press feint when there's gonna be aoe damage going out. No one NEEDS that kind of AoE reduction- otherwise you'd be forced to bring rogues- but if you want to take less damage, feint is a good button for that. If there's aoe around or damage going out that could result in a death, I will keep feint up for that part (certainly not the whole fight), as it increases the chances that healing will be more effective, and glyph of feint is a dps increase under those situations (because you spend less on feint).

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