1. #2621
    Quote Originally Posted by barackohmama View Post
    What keeps players busy nowdays is not LFR, it's achivements. most ppl can get full LFR/VP gear, even playing just 1-2 hours a week, before next MoP patch arrives.
    Achievements? Heroic raiders are bitching that Achievements are not enough to make them feel special and you think that is supposed to keep 90% of the playerbase happy too? HAH! Your bucket has holes in it.

    And you mean after 6 whole months of running LFR with all the potential problems of LFR groups they can get a whole set of LFR gear!? Say it isnt so! How long should it take people to gear up? Longer than you?

  2. #2622
    Quote Originally Posted by barackohmama View Post
    It hurts the community and is slowly killing the game. It's a design flaw by blizzard. I'm not opposing or feeling better than ppl that do LFR, it's just that people don't see what it's doing to the game.
    Blizzard said(but I'm sure you'll call them liars) that the majority of folks running LFR are not normal\Heroic mode raiders, but people who never raided before. Yet it's the regular raiders, who shouldn't be in LFR to begin with, that bitch and cry so much about LFR.

    I personally love these arguments that people aren't earning their epics! I mean it's amazing the number of old men we have in WoW, because all I keep hearing is 'Back when I was your age, we had to walk up hill, in the snow, both ways, barefoot!" Though I imagine that in real life if I started tellling you how life was back in when I was your age, you'd just roll your eyes and say "get with the times"

  3. #2623
    Quote Originally Posted by Destinas View Post
    There were plenty of times in Wrath when I would do 25 man raids, and someone would say something racist or homophobic (knowing the target audience was in vent) or did things to get a laugh when it wasn't funny to anyone else. The community honestly hasn't changed, but now there are more ways to talk with more people. I see little difference between LFR and the way people acted when I would raid in Wrath or Cata as well. I knew plenty of people who acted like that in Vanilla and BC as well.
    The issue isn't whether it was like that before. It's that back then, that kind of behavior was looked down upon and shunned by people. Ever seen that one guy in trade chat, "XXX IS A NINJA HE STOLE THE LOOT FROM ILLIDAN." Compare the two reactions. Back in Vanilla and BC, that was a big deal. People actually stopped going to that person for anything. Wrath onwards, you not only saw this kind of toxic behavior grow, but people stopped caring. Trade chat actually started DEFENDING these people. ("He stole invincible? Shouldn't have let him be master looter dumbass.") LFG came around, and the toxic parts of the community were given the opportunity to fester, because you were essentially given a free pass to be a douchebag in any dungeon with no consequence. You'd never see these people again, so why care? That behavior festered and grew into raids. By the time LFR had come out, the trustworthy community had already broken down into small, segmented groups, and you were pretty much guaranteed to get screwed by everyone in LFG. So LFR was just a gathering of a LARGER group of these people, who could troll larger groups in less time. And as always, since tier drops from LFR, anyone who wants to be semi-good at the game DOES feel forced into it.

    Long story short: Yes, there was a toxic community before, but it was never allowed to fester like it has since the introduction of LFG and LFR.

  4. #2624
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Achievements? Heroic raiders are bitching that Achievements are not enough to make them feel special and you think that is supposed to keep 90% of the playerbase happy too? HAH! Your bucket has holes in it.
    Achievements aren't really important. Heroic raiders have metrics amongst themselves, that's why sites like wowprogress exist. I've never really got why players need to show off their 'betterness' to people who don't really care; especially with all the tools that have been developed by those who do care to spy on eachother anyway. :\

  5. #2625
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    I personally love these arguments that people aren't earning their epics! I mean it's amazing the number of old men we have in WoW, because all I keep hearing is 'Back when I was your age, we had to walk up hill, in the snow, both ways, barefoot!" Though I imagine that in real life if I started tellling you how life was back in when I was your age, you'd just roll your eyes and say "get with the times"
    They certainly have a bit of "get off my lawn" feel to them.

  6. #2626
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    I personally love these arguments that people aren't earning their epics! I mean it's amazing the number of old men we have in WoW, because all I keep hearing is 'Back when I was your age, we had to walk up hill, in the snow, both ways, barefoot!" Though I imagine that in real life if I started tellling you how life was back in when I was your age, you'd just roll your eyes and say "get with the times"
    Yeah, as I noted earlier back in my day, those heady days of TBC when everything was tinted a beautiful shade of rose, we lost battlegrounds, farmed Badges of Justice, and bought our epics from vendors. Sometimes even grab a sly BoE from the auction house. If you wanted to raid, it was Karazhan or Karazhan. But not for loot, the vendors and Heroic dungeons had better.

  7. #2627
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Achievements? Heroic raiders are bitching that Achievements are not enough to make them feel special and you think that is supposed to keep 90% of the playerbase happy too? HAH! Your bucket has holes in it.

    And you mean after 6 whole months of running LFR with all the potential problems of LFR groups they can get a whole set of LFR gear!? Say it isnt so! How long should it take people to gear up? Longer than you?


    It's a fact that many casuals like achivements. If you didn't know that, most achivements are not from heroic raids. I personally dont care about achivements but i've seen plenty of casuals with alot of achivement points. I have like 7k and some people that play a few hours per week have 10-15k

    You're saying LFR is what keeps casual people busy, while I say it's not. How long it should take? It can take one reset for what I care. It can actually drop better than heroic loot. Cause as ive been trying to say to you for I don't know how long. The gear and what not is not my concern. I don't look down on people that does LFR. My concern is what these things are doing to the game as a whole in the long run.

    "Potential problems with LFR groups"? yeah you're getting there...

  8. #2628
    A game with as many players as World of Warcraft has is always going to have significant disagreements between players, bad experience possibilities if you choose to group with random people you don't know, etc., etc.

    Find what you like to do and do that. Don't be concerned about what others do or want. You'll find your stress level will go down in the process.

    Oh, and if you want a better community-it starts with you. Positivity breed positivity. Negativity feeds on itself.

  9. #2629
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Ever seen that one guy in trade chat, "XXX IS A NINJA HE STOLE THE LOOT FROM ILLIDAN." Compare the two reactions. Back in Vanilla and BC, that was a big deal. People actually stopped going to that person for anything.
    And then it turned out he didn't ninja anything, but he dared question the all mighty raidleader's judgement, who happened to be an elitist jerk from a top end guild. BOOM, reputation gone.

  10. #2630
    Blademaster olioster's Avatar
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    Because they pay the same $15 as you do a month.

  11. #2631
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    Blizzard said(but I'm sure you'll call them liars) that the majority of folks running LFR are not normal\Heroic mode raiders, but people who never raided before. Yet it's the regular raiders, who shouldn't be in LFR to begin with, that bitch and cry so much about LFR.

    I personally love these arguments that people aren't earning their epics! I mean it's amazing the number of old men we have in WoW, because all I keep hearing is 'Back when I was your age, we had to walk up hill, in the snow, both ways, barefoot!" Though I imagine that in real life if I started tellling you how life was back in when I was your age, you'd just roll your eyes and say "get with the times"
    I saw it coming. "get with the times". Yeah i'm doing that and i'm seeing a dying game. Hopefully blizzard can come to their senses and make great game again(hint it involes doing your own game from imagination)

  12. #2632
    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    If it ruins the mystery for you, then don't do it. Seriously, I can't imagine why this is so hard for the hater crowd to grasp.
    To be fair, what seems hard for LFR lovers to grasp, is that you are somewhat forced to do it when first released. Normal and heroic guilds are going to have the expectation that if there exists a look at an encounter you better get in there and see it. And because LFR groups couldn't kill Lei Shen, they put 100% rune drop on him to encourage real raiders not focusing on him to still run at least the last wing of LFR to carry those groups.

    And the easiest way to demonstrate some of the points anti-LFR people make is to remove, Legendary items from LFR, remove epics from LFR, block players over a certain ilvl from doing LFR so there are no more carries, and just leave the people that love LFR because "they only have time to play the game without socializing and don't care about gear but want to see all the content". Let's see if there are any complaints then. I am certain LFR only players are in it for more than "seeing the content".

    So, fine, have LFR with blue's and no help from people that actually put more effort into the game than logging in and entering a random queue. You know, people that still participate in any remaining notion of community while actually in the game. LFR only works right now because normal and heroic raiders, and ex-normal and heroic raiders are in there carrying the people that stand in fire doing 40k dps or less, and have no idea what any of the fight mechanics even are because they do not matter. You just heal through it or wait until your determination buff is so high the boss falls over. LFR teaches people nothing about raiding, and just encourages people to bail on their group if a wipe upsets them, or be an idiot in chat, afk out. Why not? There are no consequences. That is the community LFR builds. Real nice.

    There is a really good reason time and effort are going into Flex raids and it isn't because LFR is so great. It's because Blizzard realizes while LFR is appealing and has benefit to casual players, it also weakens the community and hinders new players that may have wanted to do normal raiding from even trying. They want people to make friends, and play with friends. LFR doesn't by and large offer that.

    To address all the people going on and on about LFR crowd is the majority and Blizzard loves money.. well LFR crowd also tends to sub and unsub regularly. Normal and Heroic raiders still playing, have been paying their $15 for YEARS on end without breaks and should have a voice. Some have more than one account. Many of the ex-raiders now doing LFR probably wouldn't still be playing if you didn't have great memories of raiding in the past, and had only ever experienced LFR, and that is the biggest problem. LFR is not a good first experience.

  13. #2633
    Brewmaster caninepawprints's Avatar
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    OP, as a "more skilled player," why do you feel entitled to be the only kind of person who gets to experience raiding content?

    As an artist, would you only want 2% of your fans to see all your work? Or would you want all your fans to see as much of it as possible? This is the position Warcraft developers are coming from. They've created this great content, but only 2% of their playerbase (their percentage, not mine) is experiencing it. They want everyone to see it, and players appreciate it, too.

    There are far more players who like LFR than there are players who hate it. Unfortunately, the players who hate it are the loudest. Thankfully, Blizzard realizes this. LFR isn't going anywhere. Nobody is being forced to do it either. If you're perfectly happy in your raid groups, someone else doing LFR doesn't change your game play experience in any way. So why are you so angry about them seeing the content?

    Not all non-raiders are "unskilled" players. Many non-raiders are people who have a work schedule or other commitments that prevent them from showing up at set raid times. Other people had to take a break, fell behind the content, and then they weren't accepted into raiding guilds despite their skill because they didn't have the gear. Lack of gear often makes raid leaders assume the person also lacks skill. This is something I've experienced recently. The guild I raided with decided to quit the game when Throne of Thunder was released. I found another guild to join that has active members, but I chose to take a break from raiding so I could enjoy more flexibility. Now I'm interested in raiding again, but I found out I have to meet the minimum requirements of 510 ilvl and 110k DPS. I can reach the DPS requirements, but my ilvl is still a bit low (507). So I'm not able to get back into raiding like I want. At least, not with this guild. Since I hate joining new guilds and getting used to new people, I decided to stick with LFR. Were it not for LFR at this stage, I'd quit the game altogether, and many players are in that exact same position. This means Blizzard loses even more subscribers and money.

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  14. #2634
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by olioster View Post
    Because they pay the same $15 as you do a month.
    Hello page 1 - 132 nice to see you. I'm sure this single phrase has been said over 100 times in this thread by 100 different people.

    It's a pretty laughable retort considering it only entitles you to access to the servers.

    The person could be incompetent and incapable of obtaining the gear to even enter LFR. That doesn't entitle him to enter it until he meets said requirements. Though the scenarios is unlikely in your mind. It may very well happen.

  15. #2635
    The better question to the entire OP should be,"Why do 'skilled' players think that other players seeing the same content as them have any effect on their ability to play?" Yet another special snowflake thread talking about a false sense of accomplishment from playing a game. Really if you are that pathetic that you need validation of your life through a video game and are upset at the fact that every day joe schmoe people are playing in the same area as you then perhaps you need psychiatric help.
    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy." -Alexander Tytler

  16. #2636
    Quote Originally Posted by barackohmama View Post
    I saw it coming. "get with the times". Yeah i'm doing that and i'm seeing a dying game. Hopefully blizzard can come to their senses and make great game again(hint it involes doing your own game from imagination)
    Because clearly the game is dying because of LFR and the subs was not dropping before LFR came out......O WAIT they was dropping before LFR came out.

    Can you please come up with a better lie then LFR is killing WOW.
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  17. #2637
    Quote Originally Posted by barackohmama View Post
    You can queue up with friends yes. But how often do you queue up with 40 friends? Almost all LFR ive ever been in either involves insulting or no communication whatsoever.

    Forbidden fruit. no. But from personal experience and people I know that has been a round for a while says, it's esentially numbing down the game. I'm not saying anything here because I look down on players that does LFR, I'm saying it because I have concerns for a game I love being a casual or not.

    The mystery and excitement for the unknown in wow existed for many. But not everyone remembers the time before LFR.
    If you don't like it don't do it.

    You don't need 40 friends to enjoy socializing in LFR. I go in with 1 or 2 every time and I enjoy every run.

    The mystery exists in your head. If you are against things that ruin the mystery then I will expect you at the next anti-Youtube rally.

  18. #2638
    Quote Originally Posted by Choptimus View Post
    So LFR is more of a challenge compared to hc dungeons/scenarios/challenge modes?

    What?

    You said you miss out on a lot of fun challenges, but LFR gives you more. LFR is a fun challenge? If you want a casual paced challenge do challenge modes? Or have you got all golds already?

    LFR is not a fun challenge, if you consider it to be a fun challenge you are a bad player.
    Well, when an LFR wing opens up, I often see us wiping a couple of times. So it's not a complete cake walk. LFR in MoP is more difficult than HC dungeons, in my opinion. That said, it doesn't take long for either experience to become really easy. After that it's just something you farm every week for loot. I consider it a challenge on the basis that we do, in fact, wipe a few times the first week or so. If there was literally no challenge, there'd be no wipes at all. It follows that there must be a challenge of sorts, per definition. Furthermore, I enjoy LFR immensely, so it's indeed fun for me. That makes it a fun challenge (in the sense that I just explained).

    And no, challenge mode dungeons are more difficult, obviously. But I didn't say otherwise now, did I? I only mentioned dungeons and scenarios, which I believe are easier to complete than LFR. Even so, like I said, all of it is a cake walk after a short while.

    But you're missing my point. It's not about the challenge, it's about the experience.
    Challenge modes are fun and difficult to be sure, but they are essentially just a tough version of the 5-mans.
    LFR gives us a new environment to experience. And you get to play in a large group of players.
    So it's another experience entirely. And we get to participate in the story of the game, as it often culminates in the raid instances.

    To say that casual players such as myself shouldn't be given the opportunity to do raids in LFR mode because there are more difficult modes, is like saying we shouldn't be allowed into 5-mans either because there's now a challenge mode.

    A challenge may vary in difficulty. There is a challenge in entering a brand new LFR mode wing with a bunch of people who are as new to it as you. Not a hard challenge of course, but a challenge nonetheless. I'm not saying it compares to normal and heroic mode, but it's something. You're not automatically a bad player because you prefer LFR. I suppose you and your guild of internet heroes execute a boss fight flawlessly each time there's a brand new encounter? No? Well, hot diggity daffodil, you must be a bad player! Except I doubt you are. I think a bad player is someone who never gets better. Everyone's a rookie at first. Even you.

    Even so, let's assume I'm not as good a player as you, what on this green Earth entitles you to more content than me? I pay the same monthly fee as you do.
    We both get to participate in the content. I get a small taste of it; you get your challenge, and the rewards that come with it. Everybody wins.

    Please leave LFR alone.
    Last edited by Iluvhir Strafermeyer; 2013-07-05 at 01:30 PM. Reason: Needed to append a thought.
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  19. #2639
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    Because clearly the game is dying because of LFR and the subs was not dropping before LFR came out......O WAIT they was dropping before LFR came out.

    Can you please come up with a better lie then LFR is killing WOW.
    Who says the number of players is what matters most? LFR is a great example of that it's not the numbers that matters. I mean 25 man and even 10 man does a better job at preserving the community, than 40 strangers together. And yes WoW subs are still dropping and is the lowest since vanilla. It's only not because of the LFR of course. But LFR is certainly not making wow recover, plus it gets the worst out of people. It actually started with LFD and xrealm BGs. I'm not saying they are no where near LFR, but we could've been so much better off without them.

  20. #2640
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    of course 5 man heroics are easier to complete them LFR. that design was deliberate. as a result they are a hundred fold easier then even the wrath ones.

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