1. #2641
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    If you can't handle intelligent debate then don't bother debating. Your entire argument is based on opinion and "Mystery" and not facts, logic and reason. I you are not strong enough to carry the water in buckets having buckets with holes in them won't help you.
    Imagination and logic doesn't always go hand in hand. Even the most logical person would never come up with something like World of Warcraft. You actually have to use your logic in a creative way. Even if LFR might come off as logical at first, is not thought through.

  2. #2642
    Quote Originally Posted by barackohmama View Post
    It actually started with LFD and xrealm BGs.
    swing and a miss

    LFD came out in 3.3.0 (8/12/09) when WoW had around 11.5 million subs (according to the press releases and / or quarterly reports) this number rose a little (to 12 million) and stayed at that high for a couple of quarters, then dropped to around 11.4 million in March 2011.

    So that's what, 15 months of flat to no growth with a little loss at the end and this is it "starting with LFD"?

    Just for the record as well, because you know, facts and shit are fun:

    Cata release was about 12 million, then it dropped to 11.4, then it dropped to 11.1, then it dropped to 10.3 then out come the annual pass and DS and LFR and it dropped to.....

    10.2, and you know what happened after that, it stayed at 10.2

    So 5 quarters of falling subs, out comes the annual pass (which I'd argue would only appeal to people going to sub anyway, why would you sign up for another 12 months if you were already thinking about leaving?) and LFR and the subs stay steady.....

    Of course the next record I've got is a fall to 9.2 (June 12) but on the back of DS being out for 7 months, SW:TOR in AUS, the 1.2 TOR patch (which fixed a number of issues with it) and D3 all coming out in that time.

    So tell me again, what did LFD and LFR do?
    Last edited by Mooboy; 2013-07-05 at 01:40 PM.
    "The fact that you don't get it or like it is fine. The fact that you wanna ruin it for everyone else - that's why you're a cocksucker." - Bill Hicks
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    The playerbase has been desiring this for years and when it's finally here, everyone wants to grab a pitchfork. Ridiculous. This community is disgustingly toxic.
    Please send all PM's with a read receipt, that way both you and I will know I'm not reading them....

  3. #2643
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    Why do greater skilled players feel entitled to keep others out of "their" content?

    Why do they?

    If you're an excellent player who's already in a hardcore guild progressing through heroic modes, why do you expect to lock others out of seeing the same content as yourself? That's the sole reason LFR was implemented, but why would hardcores demand content content be just for them. LFR was made for people of all skill levels to be able to see their raiding content.

    I just don't understand how this can affect you in the slightest when there's already an entire difficulty setting designed for the hardcore crowd?

    I think WoW is doing just fine with their current game model of separate difficulties for separate crowds. Don't get me wrong, hardcore players who raid heroic mode deserve to be compensated for their increased skill and dedication, but not by locking everyone else out of "their" content.

    I've been there. I was in a server first guild for most of Wrath. And yes, while everyone starts at the same level, not everyone has the same skill, time investment, or desire to be a hardcore raider. Why can't hardcore raiders understand that?

    See, massive, sweeping generalizations work the other way too!

    On the serious though, one of the biggest arguments I see is how LFR creates disparity between "casuals" and "hardcores" that hurts the game and the community. While this is true, I think that most of the damage being done is coming from those who feel entitled to lock players of lower skill out of "their" content. Have you ran an LFR? It's nowhere near the same experience as a normal raid with most boss mechanics being ignorable. But that's fine. For the players who've leveled through MoP, enjoyed the story of the Mogu and want to see what MSV is, LFR is there. It lets them "finish" the story in a way without having to worry about being an amazing player, min / maxing, or watching / reading a boss guide before to learn every mechanic. It's not very punishing if you make a mistake and it shouldn't be.

    Besides, if you don't like LFR don't run it.

    "But ATron, I'm forced to run LFR since it's a separate lockout! I need my set bonuses / over powered trinkets!"

    To that, I respond with a "No." You do not HAVE to run LFR for set bonuses. Will it give you an edge? Yes. Will it provide you with a small boost in performance? Yes. Is the content you're trying to do beatable without that small boost? Yes. It's entirely choice to run LFR in EVERY situation.

  4. #2644
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    ...First off LFR is 25man not 40 and also you can not prove we would have done better without LFD and finally blizzard say's the numbers matter why do you think they are always trying to get new subs and keep the ones they got.
    25 and 40, still the same. I just got the numbers wrong. but im glad you were so fast to point that rather insignificant detail out so quickly. It's a fact that LFD adds up to the things that destroys the community. People can't just be bothered to do realm 5-mans, thus we don't see that anymore. It takes time and effort to make a good community game and people actually willing to be arse do stuff on their own realm, but I guess you don't care about that.

  5. #2645
    Quote Originally Posted by Zechs-cenarius View Post
    The better question to the entire OP should be,"Why do 'skilled' players think that other players seeing the same content as them have any effect on their ability to play?" Yet another special snowflake thread talking about a false sense of accomplishment from playing a game. Really if you are that pathetic that you need validation of your life through a video game and are upset at the fact that every day joe schmoe people are playing in the same area as you then perhaps you need psychiatric help.
    For a similar reason as lonely trolls starting threads on "hot-button" topics using inflamatory words of the year like "entitlement" just to see a high thread count? It makes them feel better. On that note I object to your use of "special snowflake" for similar reasons.

    This is where I stand with LFR.

    I "came back" to wow for LFR. Because I still like these games, but I just don't have the time to invest any more. If you are in the camp that a necessary component of MMOs are the massive time sink....

    Well first I would have to argue that starting an hour late because you need to stand around LF2M people who didn't show up, and then starting a 2 or 3 hour scheduled raid two or three times a week is kind of a bullshit component of MMOs.

    That aside, I understand. If the LFR haters get Blizzard on board (doubt it), I will just quit. Don't take this as a fist-waving "Blizz if you do this I will quit". I don't really care. I kind of see where they come from, and I would walk away wishing that all their dreams for this game come true. Like I said, it's about time for me. Nothing else.

  6. #2646
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Actually if I had my druthers I would scale gear in LFR down if it exceeded a cap.

    For example, in the first wing of ToT LFR, cap ilevel at, let's say, 490.

    In the last wing, let's say, 502.

    That way, visitors from the loftier reaches of raiding are stuck doing their fair share and nothing more.
    Again extremely nonsensical reasoning

  7. #2647
    Quote Originally Posted by barackohmama View Post
    Imagination and logic doesn't always go hand in hand. Even the most logical person would never come up with something like World of Warcraft. You actually have to use your logic in a creative way. Even if LFR might come off as logical at first, is not thought through.
    Do you actually read what you post? It just seems to me that you are talking just to talk because your flowery 'mystery' ideals were shot down and now you have nothing worth saying to support your opinions.

  8. #2648
    Quote Originally Posted by barackohmama View Post
    It does a whole lot to the community. How can you not see that? If everyone is doing LFR with total strangers on other realms, your own realm community will die, it's just a matter of time. Plus everyone will be spoiled and the mystery is gone(even if you dont think mystery matters, it actually does for alot of people).
    Do people really think that LFR is the reason for the problems with the community? I can say with utmost confidence that the community has been broken for a long time. Well before LFR showed up. The community that some people speak of, you know, the one from "back in the day" isn't coming back. Blizzard could remove LFR, LFD and cross realm BGs tomorrow and the community won't come back.

    Trotting out the same tired old "community" arguments when discussing LFR is pointless.
    Stating an opinion as fact does not make it fact. Opinions are not fact. So don't be stupid and make a fool of yourself by trying to pass off your opinion as fact.

  9. #2649
    Quote Originally Posted by barackohmama View Post
    As I said before that argument is invalid. Just because you pay doesn't mean you get to see everything. And seeing everything doesn't make the game a better more enjoyable game.
    Ok so whats the point in paying for a game your only going to see half of? raid finder shouldn't make a difference to half the people in this thread since they raid heroic anyway people these days just look for something to whine about or they aren't happy specially the wow community.

    Originally Posted by barackohmama View Post
    It does a whole lot to the community. How can you not see that? If everyone is doing LFR with total strangers on other realms, your own realm community will die, it's just a matter of time. Plus everyone will be spoiled and the mystery is gone(even if you dont think mystery matters, it actually does for alot of people).

    and lfr don't ruin the community on one server either the community on wow had gone down hill before raid finder came out in cata...so that argument is invalid as well
    Last edited by Binxi1; 2013-07-05 at 01:48 PM.

  10. #2650
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    WoW is a great example of it's the numbers that do matter.

    Meanwhile, LFR is 25-man not 40.
    You missed his meaning. He is saying that 5 players could put forth more effort then the average 25 lfr players combined.

    This old video from some <Adept> guild pvp is a great example of numbers meaning dick. 5 players kill an entire 40Man GG

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFu5FBWQkzw

    Hilarious video imo. and before you even begin to say they players they are attacking were fighting a faction boss. They had to run PAST these players and continued to run around derping allowing them to attack them rather then eliminating the threat.

    Coordinated players will always be more effective then a swarm of players with no direction.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-07-05 at 01:53 PM.

  11. #2651
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    Quote Originally Posted by Binxi1 View Post
    Ok so whats the point in paying for a game your only going to see half of? raid finder shouldn't make a difference to half the people in this thread since they raid heroic anyway people these days just look for something to whine about or they aren't happy specially the wow community.
    What's the point in buying a console game if I can never get all of the achievements because some of it is beyond my skill level? Point is there was evidently enough to keep people who didn't raid happy long before LFR when subs were actually fucking CLIMBING and not DROPPING.

  12. #2652
    if all players who only doing LFR would quit, they would probably stop making raids. Or you would get like 6 bosses raids once a year. Dont think they would make 12 bosses raids each 6-8~ months for that 1% of the playerbase.

  13. #2653
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Again extremely nonsensical reasoning
    I just want the game to decide who gets to experience the content and not anonymous jackass players.

  14. #2654
    Quote Originally Posted by Mooboy View Post
    swing and a miss

    LFD came out in 3.3.0 (8/12/09) when WoW had around 11.5 million subs (according to the press releases and / or quarterly reports) this number rose a little (to 12 million) and stayed at that high for a couple of quarters, then dropped to around 11.4 million in March 2011.

    So that's what, 15 months of flat to no growth with a little loss at the end and this is it "starting with LFD"?

    Just for the record as well, because you know, facts and shit are fun:

    Cata release was about 12 million, then it dropped to 11.4, then it dropped to 11.1, then it dropped to 10.3 then out come the annual pass and DS and LFR and it dropped to.....

    10.2, and you know what happened after that, it stayed at 10.2

    So 5 quarters of falling subs, out comes the annual pass (which I'd argue would only appeal to people going to sub anyway, why would you sign up for another 12 months if you were already thinking about leaving?) and LFR and the subs stay steady.....

    Of course the next record I've got is a fall to 9.2 (June 12) but on the back of DS being out for 7 months, SW:TOR in AUS, the 1.2 TOR patch (which fixed a number of issues with it) and D3 all coming out in that time.

    So tell me again, what did LFD and LFR do?
    LFD and LFR did exactly what you just showed. It dropped wow from 12+ million subscribers to 8 million(you didn't link that number) now in MoP. Of course LFD and LFR is not everything to blame, the game is also old. But it certainly does not help. What "keeps" people in the game nowdays is getting fed quickly by new content, not the community itself, which is kinda sad.

  15. #2655
    Typical flamebait thread and almost 2700 replies ... oh my. Great job OP.

    Contribute if you're going to post, please
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2013-07-05 at 01:55 PM.

  16. #2656
    Quote Originally Posted by Ceresc View Post
    No. I consider myself an average player and even then some of the fights are nod-worthy easy. We don't want validation, we want challenging. If you keep nerfing things so the "less-skilled" can see content then it means all your "skilled" players find new games. We complain because the retarded dumbing down of the game to suit "less-skilled" players, means that our skilled player base is going elsewhere, to other games where there are still challenges that mean something. I miss having equally skilled players to hang out with/raid with. And knocking someones accomplishment threshold because it doesn't match your own is ignorant. I like going to bed and thinking, "I had fun today." And I don't appreciate anyone telling me that my fun is any less important than their fun. If you want to play normals and Heroics, play BETTER or stick to LFR. Nerfing my fun IS affecting my DESIRE to play.

    To answer the OP, because less skilled players don't understand that they are BAD.
    just reading the little bit about 'your skilled players find new games' made me laugh so hard let the elitist lot leave for a new game they always come running back to wow after a month or two lol...

  17. #2657
    Warchief Clevername's Avatar
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    oh another one of these threads, it must be that time of week again.

    Contribute if you're going to post, please
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2013-07-05 at 01:54 PM.

  18. #2658
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Blackmore View Post
    Do people really think that LFR is the reason for the problems with the community? I can say with utmost confidence that the community has been broken for a long time. Well before LFR showed up. The community that some people speak of, you know, the one from "back in the day" isn't coming back. Blizzard could remove LFR, LFD and cross realm BGs tomorrow and the community won't come back.

    Trotting out the same tired old "community" arguments when discussing LFR is pointless.
    Actually, removing things that helped remove the "community" would bring the community back. I mean it's pretty obvious, no? If there's no 1 click heroic queue, or raid queue, or bg queue people need to obviously use trade to do those things.

    The only thing those things did was make reputation mean nothing as you'll never see the people you queued with again. I'm not saying the community was better before those things, trade chat was certainly livelier and people actually had to give a LITTLE bit of care to their reputation. Then again, they'd get pissed if people kicked them out of the run and started badmouthing them in trade instead of trying to get better anyway.

  19. #2659
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    "Do you have the purples? No? Then you don't get the purples."
    This is such a good point! I see this all the time! Players who are forming raids want the players they're gathering to have an item level equal to or exceeding the content they want to raid. I've often said to people, "If I already had the gear, I wouldn't even want to raid it!" It basically comes down to one poorly geared "hardcore" player who wants to gear his alt, and he's only accepting people who outgear the content so they'll carry them through it.

    Few people take into consideration that when we enter that first raid at the start of each new expansion, we're ALL wearing blues. There's little point in raiding content you outgear unless you're just doing it for the hell of it.

    Image created by Brienna

  20. #2660
    Must resist urge to insult op for being the usual asshat! Dammit, failed again!

    Infracted. Flaming is not tolerated here
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2013-07-05 at 01:56 PM.

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