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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Fuck EPGP an fuck DKP the scheming and meta game behind it so you don't end up fucked over is not even close to being worth the time. Sure I was able to game the system but thank god 90% of my raiding has been with a fair loot council system with players who directly pass on eachother for respect to how important the upgrade is fairly often.
    If people game the EPGP system you talk to them and assure them their output is suffering on the short term. If they do not quit with it, you put them on the bench. Decay kicks in, and oops the plan did not work out. Really simple and very efficient. Especially in 25 man where people of similar specs know exactly what is a good upgrade for another person and what is not. Also, you can set the decay higher if you want to evade people hoarding EP.

    Anyone saying loot council is inherintly biased. No sorry the guild you were in just had an extremely poor leadership. Nevermind the fact that gear is not the Gold star award it is the mean to an end which is content completion. Then after this you can pat yourself on the back and collect more tools <gear>
    Human beings are inherently biased to aspects such as "this person has been in the guild longer" and "this person is quitting soon" to "this person is performing better" (which may be actually scumbag DPS). It is very hard to keep track of everything in 25m. Loot council also makes raiders suck up more to the officer team, leading to a more top-down hierarchy.
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  2. #22
    I really dislike DKP and EPGP systems. If you're a 25 guild that isn't hardcore enough to spend all the time and risk all the drama of loot council, I'd recommend using a modified suicide kings approach. We use the addon KonferSK to manage it (makes it a no-maintenance system). We have 3 lists - Major, Minor, and Off-spec, and we make the Minor list viable by not allowing people to use their major bid when they're in the bottom 8 spots of the major list. It rewards participation without incentivizing hoarding, and is absolutely fair.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Sounds fun. Doesn't make loot council bad. It just proves the guild was a cesspit.
    Actually they were running a DKP system with bidding, but I'm sure they would have administered loot council just as badly. I'm sure that loot council can be fair if managed correctly, but people often have their feelings hurt by it. DKP at least gives players insight into why the loot was distributed in the way it was. I like DKP-based systems because they reward players for showing up to raids and performing well. The down side is that new raiders lose out so it hampers recruiting. If you're still starting up a raid team I would fall back on a straight up need before greed system with MS > OS until you get a consistent team going. At that point you can switch to a more advanced loot system to protect your core players and keep your progression going.

    Regardless of what you decide remember that common sense and ethics trump all systems. The system you pick doesn't matter so much as your and your officers' commitment to running a fair system.

  4. #24
    Stood in the Fire Rheckameohs's Avatar
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    My guild doesn't use any DKP system. If shit drops, and you want it, roll on it. Leave it up to chance to decide who gets the item.
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  5. #25
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    If people game the EPGP system you talk to them and assure them their output is suffering on the short term. If they do not quit with it, you put them on the bench. Decay kicks in, and oops the plan did not work out. Really simple and very efficient. Especially in 25 man where people of similar specs know exactly what is a good upgrade for another person and what is not. Also, you can set the decay higher if you want to evade people hoarding EP.

    Human beings are inherently biased to aspects such as "this person has been in the guild longer" and "this person is quitting soon" to "this person is performing better" (which may be actually scumbag DPS). It is very hard to keep track of everything in 25m. Loot council also makes raiders suck up more to the officer team, leading to a more top-down hierarchy.
    I'm sorry but that certainly isn't the case for the last 2 guilds I have been a part of with this loot system. Nor is it acceptable to outsource loot to a player you are aware is leaving the game. It's disrespectful for someone to take anything away from the team that players are going to need to help eachother progress further through content. Becuase you know at very high raiding levels. If you do not have an excessive amount of alts and players to class stack to overcome hurdles gear is extremely important. It's not a "reward" that has no meaning. Gear is directly treated as a tool towards progression because. That is what it is. Any sane raid leader will treat a system as such if they want to go beyond watching other players have fun through a window.

  6. #26
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Most guilds I've been in just use /roll, since usually there's only one or two people that can use a drop anyways; I've been in guilds that have used DKP, Loot Council, EPGP and Suicide Kings and out of them all, I liked DKP and EPGP, didn't care for SK and Loot Council was hit or miss depending on the guild.

    I really like a variant DKP system I saw when researching a few days ago called SLS, Shard Loot System or something like that with an S where you could bid half your DKP to win the item (with a roll if more than one person bid half) or if nobody bid half it went to a roll with like a fixed cost of 10 DKP or similar. That seemed almost like the best of both; not as random as just rolling and let the dice fall where they may, but not the typical DKP system where you can hoard DKP to spend (because the more DKP you have, the more you spend if you have to bid half of it). Most of the time it boiled down to if you really wanted the item you'd bid half your DKP and hope nobody else did, or open it to a roll. If you do something like that plus Loot Council for tier pieces only (since tier are usually the most desirable and should go where it would benefit progression) I think that'd be almost best of both worlds.

    My current guild just uses /roll with an in-guild joke called Mangling Rage Points (MRP) that is a penalty to the roll if you screw up really badly on something (instead of "Fifty DKP minus" it's "+2 MRP" and all your rolls are at -2). I've been debating writing up a DKP system that utilizes something like that as a punishment, but I don't think anyone would agree to use it

    EDIT: Just checked what I meant above, it's called "Shroud Loot System".
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-07-05 at 07:16 PM.
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  7. #27
    Sounds fun. Doesn't make loot council bad. It just proves the guild was a cesspit.
    I didnt sy loot counsel was bad in that guild, it was open bid DKP I was talking about... lol?
    You are right about one thing tho... it was a cesspit.

    Human beings are inherently biased
    Thats for sure true most of the time. Its why I prefer to take the personal side out of it in 25 mans. It works in 10s but 25s just seems to add drama for no real reason. X player feels he deserves an item more than the one who got it because he helped do guild 5 mans to get the guild bank gold.. or whatever reason.

    to "this person is performing better" (which may be actually scumbag DPS). It is very hard to keep track of everything in 25m. Loot council also makes raiders suck up more to the officer team, leading to a more top-down hierarchy.
    Exactly! Even if it isnt these specific issues, there are always one or more that exists, you may not even be aware of an issue as some people just harbor the resentment of perceived slights in loot and quit the guild months later with not a word. (seen that happens 100s of times)

    Overall EPGP is the most fair IMO, as long as you have set rewards and set amounts in stone. (example: if someone wants to donate to get more EP there is a 500 EP limit per week) So that no one can just go buy up 100,000 herbs from the AH and donate them to inflate their EP values.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    I'm sorry but that certainly isn't the case for the last 2 guilds I have been a part of with this loot system.
    According to your Wowprogress you hopped between 3 guilds in last month.

    I am well aware hardcore raiding guilds use Loot Council and it does work for them. Yet it can still cause drama, and I know there is guild hopping in top guilds as well. EPGP doesn't suffer from this problem. In fact, if you gain loot via EPGP, you pulled your weight, and guilds can also use member versus trial to protect themselves from guild hoppers.

    Nor is it acceptable to outsource loot to a player you are aware is leaving the game.
    You know all too well some players will join a guild to gear up and leave.

    It's not a "reward" that has no meaning. Gear is directly treated as a tool towards progression because. That is what it is. Any sane raid leader will treat a system as such if they want to go beyond watching other players have fun through a window.
    EPGP support this. Due to decay EPGP stimulates players to need on loot even if it isn't BiS. It rewards players for being on time, staying on standby, and not leaving mid raid. It has support to provide extra rewards for people who do exceptional stuff and punish those who underperform. If you got the roster, you can also bench players who are underperforming. The system takes care of all of that in a non discriminatory, public way. Loot council does not.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  9. #29
    Epic! -Skye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry01 View Post
    EPGP 25 man: I loved this system for 25 mans, completely fair and can reward for extra work in guild and punish for poor performance if needed.

    DKP (with bidding system) I hated this as people would know before hand they could not get an item but would "bid it up" just to make the other person spend all their DKP. (this is firmly inside the rules) This destroyed moral and created negative competition.

    Loot Counsel 25 man: this is horrible due to the fact that no matter what people are biased even when they claim they are not. OR they try to appear so non biased they short themselves or friends loots they should get.

    Loot Counsel with roll 10 man: This is great for 10 mans as they are more intimate and people can discuss where the item fits best and if there are 2 or more that its say a drop that will give them a 4pc bonus they all just /roll.
    What makes a 25 man run more biased than a 10 man?
    Quote Originally Posted by Compstance View Post
    Nah, I disagree with your elitist mentality.
    Tier gear should be available during the leveling process. I don't want to have to mingle with these eltitist jerks in LFR to get gear as it is. I pay a sub fee, I shouldn't have to do LFR to get raid gear, much less Flex or Normal.

  10. #30
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    Do you think Blizzard would be thinking of bringing the LFR style of loot into "main" raid scene? Use /flex as like a test drive?

    that sure would shake things up...
    That's an interesting question. My initial thought is that they wouldn't for heroic mode. And they are more likely to simply sit back and see what, if anything, flex raiding does to normal in terms of how many use one versus the other or both or neither. Personally I think flex raiding has the potential to put a stake in the heart of normal raiding. No idea if that will actually happen but it wouldn't surprise me either way.

    On topic: If a loot system is actually needed I'm a big fan of loot councils. It's been a while since I've been in a guild that was so intense about loot that an actual system was needed. We just share and share alike.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-07-05 at 11:33 PM.
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  11. #31
    Do you think Blizzard would be thinking of bringing the LFR style of loot into "main" raid scene?
    god I hope not, there has literally been weeks at a time I have gotten nothing out of LFR...
    could you imagine learning a boss and wiping to it 30 to 40 times like how Garalon or Horridon were pre nerf and then finally getting the kill and no one in your 10 man gets a loot?

    I can and would happen a lot with the current tiers lfr piss poor loot chances.

  12. #32
    There are different ways to use EPGP and DKP. Just for those guys qqing over bad leadership in guild with dkp bidding.

  13. #33
    What makes a 25 man run more biased than a 10 man?
    Its just been that way in my experience, I dont know that 25s are by definition more biased per say, its just been my experience that in many 25s you have a core group and then you have a second group of people and many times 5 to 6 that you have on initiate status and in a 10 you generally have the same people with 1 new person from time to time so 10s have always been more friend based and intimate. Thus making /roll or loot counsel or discussion and decision much easier to do.

  14. #34
    a DKP system is not inherently bad, a lot of you guys are dissing some rules of certain systems, but not every system is the same. The point of DKP is to eliminate the drama of loot and spread it through the raid in an even and fair way, in most loot councils you have an issue of the ML playing favorites, or ppl being upset and feeling that They deserve the gear more than what the council decided. so personally, i have always used DKP, but the trick is, if you don't like a rule set that causes the system to break, Change the damn rules.

    don't like ppl DKP hoarding? force upgrades, add a point cap, or a Decay rule
    Don't like ppl gaming the bidding game? make all loot a fixed amount, highest DKP wins, simple as that,
    want to make it fair for new players, Don't allow DKP to go negative, if someones at 0, loot costs them 0, but they get it last.

    DKP works fine if you tailor the rule system to what you guild needs, and what works to get your players the gear they deserve.
    and the best part? no one bitches about loot.
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  15. #35
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    I was actually considering writing this up and presenting it to my guild as a possible loot system instead of just using /roll; I think it seems pretty fair all around. As I said in my other post I really like the "Shroud Loot System" which seems like a pretty fair DKP that eliminates most of the drawbacks. My idea was something like this, modified from the basic SLS concept:


    • You must have at least 20 DKP to shroud on an item; you can always roll for an item that nobody shrouds and this may drop you below 20 or into negative DKP
    • If a piece of loot you want drops, the Loot Master first asks if anyone wants to "Shroud". This involves paying half of your current DKP as a fixed bid; if two or more people shroud the highest DKP wins the item. Hoarding DKP doesn't exist in this system because the more DKP you have the more you'll pay when you shroud an item.
    • If nobody chooses to shroud the item goes into an open /roll for interested parties, with a fixed 10 DKP bid.
    • (Optional) Off-spec loot always goes to /roll with a 10 DKP fixed bid
    • (Optional) Tier pieces, due to desirability and benefit to the raid team, will be decided via loot council
    • All raiders begin with 40 DKP and accumulate DKP at a determined rate (I was going with something like 20 DKP per kill, 40 if it was the first kill of a normal progression boss, 60 if it was the first normal kill of the final boss of a tier or a heroic boss).
    • Pugs are assigned a budget of 40 DKP to shroud or bid on items for the duration of the raid. Pugs accumulate DKP the same as guild raiders, however they do not keep accumulated DKP between raids (i.e. a pug may end the raid with 80 DKP, but if that same pug joins next week they'll start with 40 DKP again); this allows for fair loot distribution when pugs are involved without penalizing guild members. Frequent pugs may be given "honorary" guild status and retain accumulated DKP like normal guild raiders at the raid leaders' discretion.
    • Mangling Rage Points: Assigned as punishment for particularly bad screwups, MRP is a DKP penalty that must be paid for the duration of the raid. 1 MRP is equal to 5 DKP, so for example if you were assigned +2 MRP you would have to pay a 10 DKP penalty on every item you won (whether by shrouding or /roll, so shrouding would cost you 50% + 10 of your current DKP, and a roll would cost you 20 DKP instead of 10). MRP is removed after raid, but the penalty can cause you to drop below 20 DKP and be unable to Shroud or put you into negative DKP.
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-07-06 at 01:25 AM.
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  16. #36
    The Patient Volbian's Avatar
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    We use Loot Council in our 10man. If whoever wants the item, they link the item they'd be replacing. Goes to the person who's item is the biggest upgrade.
    If all have the same ilvl then they do /roll. If its Tier, it goes to person that creates their 2 piece first, then 4 piece.

    The only exception, is if they're lazy and arent trying to replace it by doing LFR, thats when we decide who it goes to next. If you dont put effort to better yourself, then you dont get loot. Simple as that.

    When we PUG, its normally someone that fills in most of the time, rarely do we acquire a new person that never raided with us b4. IF we do PUG, they usually get like 3-4 items anyways cuz most of the team dont need the gear. So, the "needed" items go to raid members regardless. So, it works out perfectly.
    Last edited by Volbian; 2013-07-06 at 01:28 AM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Volbian View Post
    We use Loot Council in our 10man. If whoever wants the item, they link the item they'd be replacing. Goes to the person who's item is the biggest upgrade.
    Oh so you only link the item you replace and that's it?

    ...and you know exactly how good an upgrade is for every class and spec in the game? You're aware of stuff like stat priority, haste caps, and crit plateaus? You know exactly how good an item is for every spec? You're aware the warlock will switch spec if he gets the right trinket, same with mage? This is why Loot Council based on ilvl upgrade doesn't work well.

    The system you are using can and should cause drama sooner or later, or, it has people who are sucking up some of the most retarded loot distributions imaginable.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  18. #38
    Pandaren Monk Spacebubble's Avatar
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    A Loot Council is really the best option assuming that whoever is in said council is fair and just and possibly more important - knows the needs of all classes.

  19. #39
    Herald of the Titans Varyk's Avatar
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    We have a table that shows how many items you've acquired (resets every tier) and how many days you've raided and a "priority" value is set, also taking into consideration biggest upgrade, specific class benefit (warlocks and unholy dks for feather and lei shin trinket). It works pretty well, nothing really negative about it.

    Whenever you want something, you link whatever item you're replacing (rings and trinkets you link both).


    Guild has existed since Vanilla, believe the same system has been in place since world first ragnaros was killed. and yes, it's fair.
    Last edited by Varyk; 2013-07-07 at 03:17 AM.

  20. #40
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Every system has weakness unfortunately.

    Before I swapped to 10mans in Cataclysm, we used to use a system called Ni Karma, which I liked a lot. Players earned points for being on time, and for each hour of participation, so it was mostly effort based, but still allowed for people to win loot on a no-point bid if they weren't willing to spend their points to lock other players out, or if they were new or a sub.

    It wasn't perfect but it was a nice system that I thought had a good balance. A lot of systems encourage people to hoard their points for one special item at the expense of gearing up via many smaller upgrades, or forces the raid to shard offspec or marginal upgrades that no one wants to "buy" but still add up to raid benefit. I also thought the loot system was a good compromise between the situations where subs never have a chance at loot (and therefore have no desire to raid with you) and awarding subs valuable loot at the detriment of your raid (only to never see them again).

    It wasn't perfect and some RNG components of it were occasionally problematic, but overall I liked the system better than others I have used and would probably want to return to something similar if I was raiding in a larger group again.
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