DKP/Award systems

[Jacob6875]

For a 10M guild a loot system isn't really needed. The vast majority of gear only 3 people max will need (generally healer / dps trinkets etc.). So just /rolling for it or letting the person who benefits more getting the item is fine in most cases.

[Brakthir]

DKP with a minimum and a +1 bidding system, with 20% deprecation per month.

[Lastlivingsoul]

Con: whenever the GL has less points than anyone they reset the system
Con: EPGP can be added whenever and for any reason unrelated to performance, attendance or participation outside of raid time
Con: -50 DKP taking damage in a raid
Con: Treating a Game like a Job

Pro: If you are a Guild leader doing all of the above and more will always benefit you before anyone else.

[zephid]

My guild did use dkp but people began stockpiling dkp so we chose to implement a loot council and it has worked out great.

That's why you also have dkp decay in a dkp system so that you can't stockpile dkp.

[Bawk]

Loot Counsel 25 man: this is horrible due to the fact that no matter what people are biased even when they claim they are not. OR they try to appear so non biased they short themselves or friends loots they should get.

Believe it or not, unbiased 25m Loot Councils do exist -- i'm a part of one.
Fortunately I don't know what goes on behind the scenes and i'm ok with that. Sometimes its just better to let the officers handle things because everyone gets a fair share.

[traen]

Hi,

Just wanted to pop a thread about DKP/Award systems. What systems do you guys use and what's the pros and cons about them? me and my guild are using EPGP atm in 10man raiding but we had some internal fuzz around it and I personally would say loot council is better for man 10man than EPGP.

EPGP + = Easy to use. Easy to administrate, fair system if setup properly.
EPGP - = Loot doesn't always goes to the one's that needs it most. Taking up officer notes, easy to mess up if fiddling with epgp without knowing how it works (if permission to change officer notes).

Also what are your thoughts about Flexraid and DKP?

Best loot system: Council loot. Nothing can beat it. It is the worst system as well if council is biased or just not capable of doing attendance/performance/usefulness calculations properly.

Best loot system for casual guilds: EPGP. Completely unbiased, fair and squire. RPG-friendly - people "farm" their gear by playing.

DKP is outdated. It always was flawed because new, more active and better performing players were not able to catch up. We had to invent crazy rules to fight it.

[Count Zero]

My guild uses Suicide Kings ...

[Blachshma]

DKP systems aren't really necessary. My guild usually just /rolls on gear, but the winner passes it to whoever needs it most anyway most of the time. We're all adults, gear doesn't matter much as long as we are progressing, so whoever gets stuff is fine. My favorite system would probably be loot council, that way the people who need it always get it, but any immature guilds are going to have problems with people complaining about it not being fair. I haven't used DKP since Burning Crusade, just not really worth the effort.

Your guild will either complain no matter what system is used, or your guild won't have any problems with any system, not much middle ground. If there's a lot of gear whores or distrust people will dislike every system because they can all be negative towards those people, if everyone is chill and relaxed they won't care much about the system regardless.

This is basically what we do, and it works fine for the most part. However, its not always the case. I won a tier head back in ToT normal, and our boomkin whined about him never winning and such, and even though this piece would have granted me my much needed 4-set bonus, he cried so badly I just gave it to him, and was pretty angry about the whole situation. And when you think things couldn't get any worse, our mage, who also rolled for the piece, was angry because he though I was rolling for the boomkin and just gave it to him at will. He didn't believe me when I said I just gave it to him cause he whined about it. Next raid, the same piece drops, I don't even roll for it, I give it to the mage by default so he won't whine, and the next day he leaves the guild.

I still don't have my 4-set bonus.

[Sengiratolom]

My guild(25) uses dkp, 50 dkp earned/raid 50 bonus for a new boss downed, min bid= 25, minimum increment 20, trials cant outbid members. DKP reset every tier, with a % attendance bonus from the previous tier. Offspec loot is /roll ed for. (min bid= 25 can be used even if you have less dkp, any other bids are limited by the dkp pool you have) If an item would be a clear itemlvl upgrade for a mainspec, yet is not bidded on, said person will get asked why he/she didn't bid.

Loot in general is rng, a specific item might not drop for months, hence having top dkp is not a garante to be top ilvl, it just allows you to outbid other peoples total dkp on an item if needed. Some items might not even be desired by others you share loot with due to 4part of the tier being more important to them then it is for you.

Pros: Everyone determines the value of item X themselves, in general ppl are geared equally, smaller upgrades are usuaully picked up for min bid, instead of being disenchanted, because it costs less then a raid is worth. Spec Y s less desireable items are usually passed to trials, making them gear up faster.

Cons: People hoard dkp to save for a specific item (generally a weapon or a trinket), people who joined later have little chance to catch up dkp wise.

For 25 man, a loot council would be a mess, unless the group is very stable for a longer period and the council knows the bis lists for every single person in the raid, evenly distributes items amongst active people, and keeps track of who got what (giving 1 person a weapon and trinket in 1 run and another who shares the loot 2 armor pieces isn't fair handling unless the "received armor" person already has equivalent weapons and or trinkets). Besides, the raid must also be able to set their mind to a "loot is distrubted by council and i am fine with it" state, rather then being driven by the will to gear up themselves or even nag when an item they wanted badly is given to some1 else to balance things.

[Mammoth]

DKP loot systems cause too much strife on 10 man. 25 man they're vital, but 10, not really. I've used standard rolls and I've used suicide kings. On kings you have a priority list. When you get loot, you move to the back of the list.

[TyrianFC]

DKP systems are essentially archaic for WoW as it is today. (Whereby the WoW of today is largely a game for 10 player raid guilds, which also happens to feature a few 25 raiding guilds as well. In the past this was the opposite)

DKP served its most important role during Vanilla for 40 man guilds, and still (to a lesser extent) does for 25 man guilds today. However, there is no need for it in 10 man guilds (both normal and heroic) which form the vast majority of raiding guilds still around in WoW today, for better or worse.

There is nothing wrong with the system itself, but its just an archaic and unnecessary concept for WoW as it is today, outside of the ever-decreasing 'niche' of 25 man raiding.

[Amerrol]

I'm in a 25 man guild, and we use loot council. I can't say I have agreed with every decision they have ever made, but overall, they spread loot around nicely with an obvious focus on more reliable and long term members. That being said, there have been plenty of occasions where a newer member got loot over someone who has been in guild for years, it's just much less of a risk to give it to someone you have known for a long time. Plus, I'm the highest geared person in my guild, and I'm not on loot council, so I can't complain.

[Deleted]

We've always done loot council. Some of the decisions we've made have been incorrect in hindsight, but it works the vast majority of the time. I think if you're really progression orientated this is the only way. If you're just a casual guild that doesn't care very much for progression then just roll (we do that in alt runs & pugs).

[Deleted]

it's just much less of a risk to give it to someone you have known for a long time.

A common misconception, which breeds favoritism, nepotism, inequality and ultimately drama in guilds, and one of the many reasons why loot council is flawed.

If someone decided to leave a guild he either quits the game (which can happen also to long term members) or joins another guild. Now, in the case they went to an other guild and you used EPGP, they worked for their gear just as much as you and I and were rewarded by that with GP. The reason they leave can be entirely justified, and are usually related to officer team or guild as a whole more than that person themselves. The reason EPGP is reset every expansion is to evade members from previous tiers to be able to extend their EP to eternity thus allowing new or returning members also a piece of the cake.

- - - Updated - - -

We have a table that shows how many items you've acquired (resets every tier)

Does that take into account non BiS items when they drop and nobody wants them? Cause there's like minor upgrades which with this system get disenchanted.

It seems like your system is an awful lot like EPGP. Why not use that instead and use your brains ie. you /w the person hey that trinket is really awesome for my class but you are higher on prio mind passing it? And then you keep the loot decision private and can fix the min maxing.

[Amerrol]

A common misconception, which breeds favoritism, nepotism, inequality and ultimately drama in guilds, and one of the many reasons why loot council is flawed.

If someone decided to leave a guild he either quits the game (which can happen also to long term members) or joins another guild. Now, in the case they went to an other guild and you used EPGP, they worked for their gear just as much as you and I and were rewarded by that with GP. The reason they leave can be entirely justified, and are usually related to officer team or guild as a whole more than that person themselves. The reason EPGP is reset every expansion is to evade members from previous tiers to be able to extend their EP to eternity thus allowing new or returning members also a piece of the cake.

We haven't had more than like two people leave in the past year because of loot. Mostly trials leave when they don't get enough raid time. 25 mans have a crazy amount of turnover. You know how many of the same people we have had the entire year? About 10ish. Why shouldn't we trust those people with gear more than trials or newer members. We have had a lot more newer members just stop playing the game as opposed to our veterans, which we may have lost about two or three, but we also gained some very reliable new members who are trusted now. Not one person has bitched about loot the entire time I have been in the guild, at least not publicly.

I'm sure there are plently of guilds who have a corrupt loot council, but our officers have been together since Vanilla/BC, and we publicly track our loot on our website, so anyone can see if there is favoritism.

[Volbian]

Oh so you only link the item you replace and that's it?

...and you know exactly how good an upgrade is for every class and spec in the game? You're aware of stuff like stat priority, haste caps, and crit plateaus? You know exactly how good an item is for every spec? You're aware the warlock will switch spec if he gets the right trinket, same with mage? This is why Loot Council based on ilvl upgrade doesn't work well.

The system you are using can and should cause drama sooner or later, or, it has people who are sucking up some of the most retarded loot distributions imaginable.

Yes i do, Unlike most of WoW players i read up on every class and spec. I even play every spec, except i dont heal. Maybe this system doesnt work for you and your guild, cuz it sounds like youre raiding with greedy ass people, but it works for our guild. We never had any loot issues, and the one time we did becuz someone bitched about loot(which gets replaced every Tier), they got kicked off the team. Its not about loot. Its about killing bosses as a team.

Secondly, we're not a Heroic raiding guild, we do dabble in it cuz Normal is cleared, but its not a priority. So stats changes, i get it. Thats why there's reforging. BUT if someone has a 502 or lower and other players have 522. Regardless of what stat it is. The lower ilvl is obviously an upgrade since it has lower stats. Trinkets are a whole different thing.

[Deleted]

Anyone who causes loot drama in public is a fucking moron. Loot disputes (both minor and major) are always dealt with in private between the people who it involves.

Yes i do, Unlike most of WoW players i read up on every class and spec. I even play every spec, except i dont heal. Maybe this system doesnt work for you and your guild, cuz it sounds like youre raiding with greedy ass people, but it works for our guild. We never had any loot issues, and the one time we did becuz someone bitched about loot(which gets replaced every Tier), they got kicked off the team. Its not about loot. Its about killing bosses as a team.

Yes, all nice in theory for when you wanna give away flowers on the street but in the end people are inherently greedy and selfish by nature. And people do not know and understand every spec and class in the game.

Secondly, we're not a Heroic raiding guild, we do dabble in it cuz Normal is cleared, but its not a priority. So stats changes, i get it. Thats why there's reforging. BUT if someone has a 502 or lower and other players have 522. Regardless of what stat it is. The lower ilvl is obviously an upgrade since it has lower stats. Trinkets are a whole different thing.

In other words you don't even min max.

[pocky_rin]

We used a form of EPGP and DKP before as a 25man heroic raiding guild. However when we dropped to 10man we removed all loot systems, I don't think it's necessary at all for 10man with mature players, there should be no loot drama. We don't even use master loot for swiftness, people need if they need, and need if it's offspec so that it doesn't get dissed. If someone needed it for mainspec when someone won it for offspec they just say and it gets traded over. Have had no issues at all with this for the last year. When we get a new player we explain that system to them and they have behaved themselves. Maybe we've been lucky but I don't think someone would want to get kicked out of a raiding guild when they want to raid for the sake of 1 item. Everyone has been mature about it, and whilst it's not something we make people do, some people even take it on themselves to say "oh hey man it's a better upgrade for you, I'll just wait till next week."

I should mention whilst there was no loot drama with the new system, there was loot drama every damn day with DKP. The only way the officers could contain people was by the simple fact if you were pissed off DKP was crap to you, at least it was crap to everyone else as well.

[Ciddy]

I was in charge of my guild's DKP system for a couple of years and can tell you that I'd stay away from it now. I'd just say loot council is the way to go. Much less drama, and you can ensure that loot is distributed evenly/fairly. The problem with most DKP/award systems, as someone else said, is that you'll have DKP-hoarding lootwhores who start drama over everything. It just overcomplicates things, especially in a 10-man group.

Plus most DKP systems are a pain in the ass to manage. I had made a sticky post on our guild forums (which nobody actually ever read) with details of how our system worked, how to log in and view standings, etc, and I still constantly had people bugging me with whispers asking how to do basic stuff that I'd gone over in the sticky.

[Volbian]

Anyone who causes loot drama in public is a fucking moron. Loot disputes (both minor and major) are always dealt with in private between the people who it involves.

Yes, all nice in theory for when you wanna give away flowers on the street but in the end people are inherently greedy and selfish by nature. And people do not know and understand every spec and class in the game.

In other words you don't even min max.

The question was whether I(ME) knew about stat priority, haste caps, and crit plateau was, not everyone else. So i answered you.

Some people care about min/max some don't. Honestly you sound like you'd be one starting loot drama cuz you're coming across as caring about YOURSELF and YOUR DPS. When an OP Warlock, has a 522, and a Mage has a 502. We FEEL that the Mage needs love with gear, to be competitive, instead of Warlock carrying everyone. Its called team effort, not ONE person carrying the team.