Page 1 of 4
1
2
3
... LastLast
  1. #1

    DKP/Award systems

    Hi,

    Just wanted to pop a thread about DKP/Award systems. What systems do you guys use and what's the pros and cons about them? me and my guild are using EPGP atm in 10man raiding but we had some internal fuzz around it and I personally would say loot council is better for man 10man than EPGP.

    EPGP + = Easy to use. Easy to administrate, fair system if setup properly.
    EPGP - = Loot doesn't always goes to the one's that needs it most. Taking up officer notes, easy to mess up if fiddling with epgp without knowing how it works (if permission to change officer notes).

    Also what are your thoughts about Flexraid and DKP?

  2. #2
    DKP systems aren't really necessary. My guild usually just /rolls on gear, but the winner passes it to whoever needs it most anyway most of the time. We're all adults, gear doesn't matter much as long as we are progressing, so whoever gets stuff is fine. My favorite system would probably be loot council, that way the people who need it always get it, but any immature guilds are going to have problems with people complaining about it not being fair. I haven't used DKP since Burning Crusade, just not really worth the effort.

    Your guild will either complain no matter what system is used, or your guild won't have any problems with any system, not much middle ground. If there's a lot of gear whores or distrust people will dislike every system because they can all be negative towards those people, if everyone is chill and relaxed they won't care much about the system regardless.

  3. #3
    In the past we used several DKP systems but if I would start a guild right now I would use Loot Council. Especially in a 10 man guild because that only makes it easier to keep track of items going to certain players.

    I want loot to be used efficiently. Loot Council will also motivate guildmembers to do their best. On top of that if you have players in your guild who can deal with Loot Council then you at least don't have those DKP saving lootwhores who cause drama over nothing and don't really care about progress.

    In my previous guild we were able to bid with our DKP. Some people just made arrangements like: X and Y need Z item, X says Y can have Z for the minimum amount of DKP and X will just get it the next time for minimum DKP also. I wonder if you let that happen then why bid at all? You can also imagine that some people weren't really happy with this broken system since this meant that X and Y had left over DKP and could easily outbid on tier pieces and weapons/trinkets. And the whole point of DKP is that it's a fair way to distribute loot (Loot council on the other hand is not about fairness but about efficiency, depending on your guildmasters ofcourse :P). It was like a DKP bidding system with a few people using a sort of Loot Council.

    So better make sure it works properly. I personally would put emphasis on seeing loot as a means to an end and using it as efficiently as possible but not everyone is up for that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    DKP systems aren't really necessary. My guild usually just /rolls on gear, but the winner passes it to whoever needs it most anyway most of the time. We're all adults, gear doesn't matter much as long as we are progressing, so whoever gets stuff is fine. My favorite system would probably be loot council, that way the people who need it always get it, but any immature guilds are going to have problems with people complaining about it not being fair. I haven't used DKP since Burning Crusade, just not really worth the effort.

    Your guild will either complain no matter what system is used, or your guild won't have any problems with any system, not much middle ground. If there's a lot of gear whores or distrust people will dislike every system because they can all be negative towards those people, if everyone is chill and relaxed they won't care much about the system regardless.
    This is true also. But you can try to make it as fair as possible to keep the drama down to a minimum.
    Last edited by Gilian; 2013-07-04 at 07:12 AM.

  4. #4
    Scarab Lord Mokoshne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    getting a coffee
    Posts
    4,483
    With a bigger guild, DKP / EGKP or what have you is generally the go to method of loot distribution. In a 10man environment i think Loot Council or just plain /roll is best. The problem is in 25man theres just way too many factors that a proper system in place just reduces heart ache.
    My weekly podcast can be downloaded here this week we discuss Bill Cosby

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by sn0wman View Post
    Hi,

    Just wanted to pop a thread about DKP/Award systems. What systems do you guys use and what's the pros and cons about them? me and my guild are using EPGP atm in 10man raiding but we had some internal fuzz around it and I personally would say loot council is better for man 10man than EPGP.

    EPGP + = Easy to use. Easy to administrate, fair system if setup properly.
    EPGP - = Loot doesn't always goes to the one's that needs it most. Taking up officer notes, easy to mess up if fiddling with epgp without knowing how it works (if permission to change officer notes).

    Also what are your thoughts about Flexraid and DKP?
    Flex raid will use the LFR loot system.
    Perfect example of why "community" forums are poisonous to the health of a development team. These developers are wasting hundreds of hours trying to stem the tide of incessant bitchery that would never, ever abate so long as these entitled, unfortunate human beings don't get their way.

  6. #6
    Scarab Lord Mokoshne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    getting a coffee
    Posts
    4,483
    Quote Originally Posted by Last Starfighter View Post
    Flex raid will use the LFR loot system.
    Do you think Blizzard would be thinking of bringing the LFR style of loot into "main" raid scene? Use /flex as like a test drive?

    that sure would shake things up...
    My weekly podcast can be downloaded here this week we discuss Bill Cosby

  7. #7
    during wrath/beginning cata when we were 25man, we used DKP.

    after we went 10man during cata till now, we just make a bis list. then sort it out amongst each other who gets what when something drops.
    passing stuff along thats good for you, but on someone else BiS list so even better for them.

    so far it has kept things evenly spread, and the most unbalance between ilvls comes from stuff not dropping.

  8. #8
    My guild did use dkp but people began stockpiling dkp so we chose to implement a loot council and it has worked out great.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    Do you think Blizzard would be thinking of bringing the LFR style of loot into "main" raid scene? Use /flex as like a test drive?

    that sure would shake things up...
    I hope not. Eventhough there is loot drama deciding as a guild how to use your loot is not a bad part of the game. You need to have some freedom and choice.

    Maybe make it optional?

  10. #10
    I agree with others that EPGP made sense in 25 mans, doesn't seem to make as much sense in 10 mans, unless maybe there is fair amount of player rotation going on. I sometimes pug in to a guild run that uses epgp, since I'm not a complete loot whore and sometimes I'm happy to just use a coin roll, I tell the raid lead\gm that I don't want to take any loot from their mains, so when I roll if their mains want it they can have it.
    I personally would hate to pug in and win an item that finally dropped from a guy who's been running it for the past 2 months. It's also worked pretty good for getting me invited back.

    Sometimes I do wish we had used a little more Loot council style "who is this the best for" versus Bob gets it because he's got the most points, even though it's a barely a upgrade for him. But we're not a hardcore progression guild, so normally doesn't matter either.

  11. #11
    Pandaren Monk Telaq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    The Big Apple!(Former Swede)
    Posts
    1,839
    We just have the original Need/Greed roll, tho. We've been playing with eachother for countless of years.. Never had han issue with this. Not even with trials.

    I see this as a good and fast loot solution, but might not appeal to every Guild.

  12. #12
    EPGP 25 man: I loved this system for 25 mans, completely fair and can reward for extra work in guild and punish for poor performance if needed.

    DKP (with bidding system) I hated this as people would know before hand they could not get an item but would "bid it up" just to make the other person spend all their DKP. (this is firmly inside the rules) This destroyed moral and created negative competition.

    Loot Counsel 25 man: this is horrible due to the fact that no matter what people are biased even when they claim they are not. OR they try to appear so non biased they short themselves or friends loots they should get.

    Loot Counsel with roll 10 man: This is great for 10 mans as they are more intimate and people can discuss where the item fits best and if there are 2 or more that its say a drop that will give them a 4pc bonus they all just /roll.
    Last edited by Larry01; 2013-07-05 at 02:54 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry01 View Post
    DKP (with bidding system) I hated this as people would know before hand they could not get an item but would "bid it up" just to make the other person spend all their DKP. (this is firmly inside the rules) This destroyed moral and created negative competition.
    That's the fault of your raid leadership. We used DKP with bidding in addition to a priority system: First main spec item of the raid > main spec item > offspec items. People aren't as willing to risk missing out on their first main spec item just to spite someone. There are also times when the raid leader needs to have the discretion to step in and rectify injustices like the one you described. Personally if I were in officer in a guild where this was going on I would recommend kicking the instigators of this behavior if they persisted.

    I'm not a fan of loot council because it's a hotbed of drama. The system is highly susceptible to favoritism, alienating raiders who are not in the alpha clique. Even when the council makes absolutely fair decisions the people missing out on loot are going to harbor bad feelings. I honestly would avoid this system at all costs.

    I have no experience with EPGP so I can't really comment on it.

  14. #14
    Pandaren Monk Auloria's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,946
    I really liked EPGP, it rewards people for coming to raids and being on time, so that roughly time spend raiding = gear awarded. That way upgrades go to the people who help the raid the most, not just people who need it most.

    My guild now hates it, but apparently they would award EP for people who farmed mats, so whoever farmed most got the most gear. Our group just /rolls on everything. Almost everyone is great about passing, they would rather help the team, but we just had someone ragequit for losing a tier piece to someone else who needed a tier piece. Good riddance.

    Honestly, if anyone makes a peep about gear they should just be kicked from the guild, I'm so tired of that crap.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zdrasti View Post
    When a homeless person is rambling in the streets, it's better to ignore them than argue with them. On the internets it's clearly better to spend an entire week proving them wrong.

  15. #15
    If you have a group of fair and mature players , loot council is by far the easiest to handle , 3 months of tot progression and haven't experienced a single loot argument ! Para para paradise

  16. #16
    Loot council leads to guild drama sooner or later. Human beings are inherently discriminative for one reason or another. EPGP fixes this, as does RNG (/roll). Do note that in a very serious guild with professional council the chance of drama occurring is smaller than in a more casual guild.

    Since there is not much competition in loot in 10 man and people are closer connected without so many factors involved like in 25 man I suggest /roll for 10 man and EPGP for 25 man (EPGP is more fair than DKP).

    Flex will use personal loot system like LFR has and this eliminates that "I don't want to bring class/spec X who rolls on item Y" in a group of randoms.

    By the way EPGP has many knobs and wheels you can fine tune to your liking such as for example minor upgrade, decay, ...
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  17. #17
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    2,634
    We use EPGP.

    We give 250 EPoints for those present at Raid Start and another 250 for Raid Off, plus 550 points for normal boss kills, 650 for heroic boss kills and 750 for guild first kills (regardless of difficulty). Plus we give 50 EP per 30 min during progression.

    We also take EP away for repeat mistakes in "Do or Die" mechanics. Usually you just get points taken away if you're a repeat offender in the same night.

    Example: Dying to Durumu's maze. Dying to DA's Anima Font. If your mistake is one that directly and irrevocably causes a wipe like blowing off Ionization inside the Water on Jin'rokh then you get EP taken right away.

    Also, to avoid stockpilling we now do a 50% EP/GP decay every week. Meaning, you can still stockpile EP and save GP but the big decay won't allow you to stock for that much, plus with such low values your Priority roll (EP divided by GP = EP/GP) will remain very volatile. We used to have a 20% decay only and basically what it did was people that had saved a lot of EP could get a ton of items in a row and people who had taken a lot of loot would be stuck weeks on the bottom of the PR list.


  18. #18
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    My Throne
    Posts
    6,487
    Fuck EPGP an fuck DKP the scheming and meta game behind it so you don't end up fucked over is not even close to being worth the time. Sure I was able to game the system but thank god 90% of my raiding has been with a fair loot council system with players who directly pass on eachother for respect to how important the upgrade is fairly often.

    Anyone saying loot council is inherintly biased. No sorry the guild you were in just had an extremely poor leadership. Nevermind the fact that gear is not the Gold star award it is the mean to an end which is content completion. Then after this you can pat yourself on the back and collect more tools <gear>
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-07-05 at 03:43 PM.

  19. #19
    That's the fault of your raid leadership.
    LOL actually it wasnt their fault... it was their intent. They were asshats of the highest order and felt that the competition and negative brow beating about performance while allowing their "pets" (alpha group buddies) to cheese mechanics and scumbag dps actually was the right way to run a guild.
    It was honestly hilarious, thats why I stayed for the couple months I did... I had never seen such a train wreck in my 14 years of raiding in different games.

  20. #20
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    My Throne
    Posts
    6,487
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry01 View Post
    LOL actually it wasnt their fault... it was their intent. They were asshats of the highest order and felt that the competition and negative brow beating about performance while allowing their "pets" (alpha group buddies) to cheese mechanics and scumbag dps actually was the right way to run a guild.
    It was honestly hilarious, thats why I stayed for the couple months I did... I had never seen such a train wreck in my 14 years of raiding in different games.
    Sounds fun. Doesn't make loot council bad. It just proves the guild was a cesspit.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •