Page 2 of 9 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
... LastLast
  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by qyietstorm View Post
    Lol completely forgot about ice blocking frostbite! That was a huge difference maker on that fight, even more so if you had a druid to symbiosis.
    And all the first 10m HC council kills were exclusively without mages... I am very well aware of the cheese/useful tools mages have to avoid shit for themselves, however I was talking about hardcore progression, not only in ToT, but also beginning in Mogu. Sure, by the end an Sha of Fear HC, a mage was a useful DPS cannon (especially when 5.1 hits), but at the start of MoP, 15 groups from the top20 10m HC bracket werent using a mage in their first kills, including paragon, moonz. Whereas EVERV top20 10m had AT LEAST ONE (some even 2) priest and druids and paladins in their setup, and EVERY group had a warlock (or two) and a hunter. Every group in top 20. Only worse of than mages in participation were rogues and shamans.

    So yeah, I know what I'm talking about because we were 3 mages in our 10m group and if we've ever tried to put more than 1 mage in it got messy. (talking about mogu, by our sha firstkill 2 mages were fine). It got messy because the raid dmg was too high, some spikes/bad rng could kill us, and the lack of hybrid healcds is unforgiveable in 10m HC progression imo. We could do it eventually, sure, but it makes the fight unnecessaryly harder, and that is nothing you want for progression.

    Also, our ToT HC council firstkill was with 2 mages, and we almost didn't make it because of Khazra'jin Dmg reflection coupled with +dmg debuff...

  2. #22
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Rijeka, Croatia
    Posts
    1,975
    Quote Originally Posted by blaxter View Post
    I was talking only about 5.2, with heoric gear from previous tier (500-525 ilvl), mages were the worst ranged class by a huge difference. The bombs buff wasn't really important for fire/frost (for arcane probably, but that spec wasn't the good one for progression back then, imho)

    Once I got gear I was again topping damage meters but I've already cleared almost all content of ToT when that happened. I'd prefer a class where at the beginning of a tier I can make a difference for progression.
    If you had gear around item level 510-520, you could have played any of the three specs (after the bomb buff) for practically identical damage on almost every encounter. This I guarantee because at the time when 5.2 started we had three mages playing three different specs in nearly identical gear (item level - the items themselves were spec-related) doing nearly identical damage.

    If you played Fire when 5.2 hit before 515 item level and non-optimized gear for fire, then of course your damage would have been lower than the other two specs.

  3. #23
    Pandacally raises very good points.

    We have a lot of cheesey, I can save myself abilities. But if something is affecting the raid, or not us. We do not have any options to save them, or aid in any way, aside from doing more damage

  4. #24
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    France
    Posts
    1,168
    Ok, I will correct some bad assumption.

    1- Mage look like the best DPS becasue SimC overestimat it by ~10%.
    2- Blizzard are always against the "best DPS because lack of utility", like the old "Hybrid tax".
    3- Blizzard think mage don't need raid utility because the have a lot of personal utility and survivability tool.

    On my opinion:
    • mage is good at survive big damage
    • mage don't have self-heal or damage's reduction to survive on continuous damage.
    • mage have 2 raid tools (refreshment's table and portal) but they aren't as useful as it was some times ago.

    Blizzard have never say they won't give mage raid utility. But they say that mana gemme in warlock's style isn't a good idea for them.

    I feel like that Focus magic and Amplify/Dampen magic was some good raid utility.
    The answers is 42
    -------------------------
    Nathyiel, TempteÐ (sargeras-EU) - @Nathyiel

  5. #25
    [QUOTE=Nathyiel;21653689][*]mage don't have self-heal or damage's reduction to survive on continuous damage.[/LIST]

    Ähm Flameglow? Even after the nerf Flameglow is pretty strong. Self-Heal is somehow low; and i really wish that blizzard would bring Mana Shield back. (1% damage to health get converted to 1% reduction of mana in PvE, and 2-4% reduction in PvP)

  6. #26
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    France
    Posts
    1,168
    FG is only better than Ice barrier if you have more than 2 DOT on you for more than 25s. In all other case, IB is superior. And it only absorb ~100k damages.
    Mage self-heal need no movement for 3s/6s for Evocation, no movement at all for RoP or are on 3 minutes CD for Cold Snap.

    When I'm bored, I like to try soloing things like Big Dino on the Isle or Elite in Barrens, I quickly found out the limits of this talents when stopping the kitting to cast evocation is a deadly option (or you receive more damage than the heal).
    The answers is 42
    -------------------------
    Nathyiel, TempteÐ (sargeras-EU) - @Nathyiel

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Velerios View Post

    Ähm Flameglow? Even after the nerf Flameglow is pretty strong. Self-Heal is somehow low; and i really wish that blizzard would bring Mana Shield back. (1% damage to health get converted to 1% reduction of mana in PvE, and 2-4% reduction in PvP)
    Nobody will take FG now that TS has 15% reduction for 10 seconds..


    But back to the topic, Mages only lack utility next patch. We are on par or better than most on survivability now that TS got buffes and passive reductions got removed from many classes. So ye, I don't see mages being bad in 10 man, you still want someone to bring the better Lust/hero and mage is a good candidate for that, plus 10% sp/5% crit from 1 buff is still kinda good, so you don't have to rely on a druid staying alive or a monk.

  8. #28
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    France
    Posts
    1,168
    It's more a question of feeling.
    Mage need something to feel utile to raid, not to be useful.

    I don't want damage reduction/heal boost, we're not hybrid.
    I don't want a damage boost, it will be OP with Timewarp.
    It could be some movement utility but bliz have said they will maybe nerf some of warlock's one.

    So yes, just give us something cool and unique but not very useful. something like :
    -- Amplify magi: increase magic damage and heal dealt by 1000 for 10 minutes, to you and all ally in your group and raid.
    -- Dampen magi: decrease magic damage receive by 1000 for 10 minutes, to you and all ally in your group and raid.

    or simply Focus Magic
    The answers is 42
    -------------------------
    Nathyiel, TempteÐ (sargeras-EU) - @Nathyiel

  9. #29
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Edinburgh, Scotland
    Posts
    3,170
    Quote Originally Posted by Omgponies View Post
    What utility do you think we bring thats so great?

    We have personals like everyone else, but nothing groundbreaking or particulary raid useful
    You mean other than the single best raid-DPS cooldown in the game?

    You can Spellsteal, Cauterize, Blink, Ring of Frost or even Ice Block in order to help your raid out, while you also happen to be the best DPS class available (and have been for as long as anyone remembers). Basically, any mage arguing that they don't have it extremely good is either:

    a) Completely ignorant of what the class has and can do.
    b) Simply wants to be the best class, at everything, at all times.

    I have never, ever, ever heard a raid group say they didn't want a mage. Ever. The only exception is when a raid potentially already has a few and doesn't want to stack tier, but that's true for all classes - funnily enough, when classes get stacked for an encounter, mages are always among the classes present because Blizzard is terrified of ever making them bad for some reason. Hell, Ghostcrawler buffed them during 5.2 because (and I quote) "they weren't where we wanted them to be".

    Where they were, was behind warlocks and Shadow priests on multi-dotting encounters. Nope, not acceptable - mages have gotta be top.

    Seriously, it's rare that I say this because I don't like antagonizing people, but mages crying is like fairy laughter.

    Your tears are delicious to every other caster in the game.
    Last edited by The Caretaker; 2013-07-04 at 02:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  10. #30
    I am not as conserned with having a raid wide cooldown. I think the issue is boss encounter design. I would prefer that bosses were designed so that you need to move/beat the mechanic as opposed to relying on 2-3 min raid wide cool down rotations. Remove all the raid wide cool downs and design the encounters differently!

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Where they were, was behind warlocks and Shadow priests on multi-dotting encounters. Nope, not acceptable - mages have gotta be top.

    Seriously, it's rare that I say this because I don't like antagonizing people, but mages crying is like fairy laughter.

    Your tears are delicious to every other caster in the game.
    Don't these ignorant lines already classify you for trolling/spam which is quite unwelcome on most forums?
    What your are raving about is only your impression, but you can not back it up with data nor destinguish what many mages see as a major concern for their class.

    Data to back things up:
    Look at wowprogress 10m HC for the first-kill setups from the progressing guilds.

    I'm not saying that a mage is not a dps cannon with gear (how much gear and how to get to that gear for progression purposes is another point to discuss), and that mages have a lot of cheesy abilities (traditionally ice block/blink and newer greater invis/alter time/temp shild), but they are in no way mandatory for a raids progression. The raid does not rely on your iceblock or blink (you , as an individual player ofc do). But it might rely on hybrid offheal cds, shadow mass despells (especially t11), or lock portals (sometimes), or other situational raid cds.

    And the arguments like:
    mages are always among the classes present because Blizzard is terrified of ever making them bad for some reason
    are misleading, blizzard is terrified of making any class be terrible and not played any more. They want players to have fun, so that they'll stay and pay their game.

  12. #32
    Dreadlord nimryas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    804
    I find it so ignorant of blizzard that they argue mages don't need raid wide utility only because we've got some good personal utilities. It doesn't make any sense, since using raid wide utilities will greatly improve (at least for me) the feeling of being 1 team instead of an individual player. It gives a sense of acomplishment to be able to support your raid.

    The personal cooldowns that we've got are rather strong for a big hit but we're not really that good for continuous damage, like locks/spriests get from heals by dpsing. Of course cauterize is a nice spell since it saves a combat ress, but a good/skilled mage shouldnt be needing cauterize as much as somebody else, I feel like the the other two alternatives aren't really good either.

    Nimryas - EU-Kazzak ~ My youtube channel

  13. #33
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    (USA) Florida
    Posts
    7,322
    Quote Originally Posted by dabsy View Post
    Mages are in the raid for high damage, and good personal utility in form of both survivability and offense. Our spot is pretty secure in 10 man raiding.
    TBH I get kinda pissed how everyone says we have good defensive survivability. Our best is avoiding a short duration of damage (e.g., very large hits). For stuff that is weakish AoEs (or even strong ones) that occur over a duration (Lightning Storm, Rockfall, Rampage, Quills, all the random shit that goes on during Primordius, Fist Smash, TC shit [like Day Phase], or Lei Shen transitioning to another platform), we're pretty defenseless and take more damage than any other class with our low HP pools and Armor.

    While I do enjoy cheesing high-damage single hits, I want SOME level of consistent damage reduction (in the form of a cooldown or a passive, and Flameglow definitely isn't it because it sucks shit)


    Also, has anyone played any class that DOES have a lot of utility? Like Warlocks. They have FANTASTIC self-utility (SacPac, Unending Resolve, Lifesteal and Bubbles OUT THE ASS), all of which can block one large hit, block many smaller hits, pure reduction of all damage over a long duration, etc., on top of having Healthstones for the raid, Soulstone for Battle rez, AND a gateway that helps in so many situations (especially Iron Qon's Wind Storm... god damn). Oh, did I also mention most fights this tier caters to Warlocks with multi-dotting? So yeah, for a class that has even better self-utility, why the hell are we getting the shaft on raid utility?
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2013-07-04 at 06:52 PM.

    Retired Veteran Raider: [T14] 10/16H, [T15] 12/13H, [T16] 7/14H
    BTag: Polarthief#1411 (send me a PM or something; I remove randoms w/o notice)

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandacally View Post
    And all the first 10m HC council kills were exclusively without mages... I am very well aware of the cheese/useful tools mages have to avoid shit for themselves, however I was talking about hardcore progression, not only in ToT, but also beginning in Mogu. Sure, by the end an Sha of Fear HC, a mage was a useful DPS cannon (especially when 5.1 hits), but at the start of MoP, 15 groups from the top20 10m HC bracket werent using a mage in their first kills, including paragon, moonz. Whereas EVERV top20 10m had AT LEAST ONE (some even 2) priest and druids and paladins in their setup, and EVERY group had a warlock (or two) and a hunter. Every group in top 20. Only worse of than mages in participation were rogues and shamans.

    So yeah, I know what I'm talking about because we were 3 mages in our 10m group and if we've ever tried to put more than 1 mage in it got messy. (talking about mogu, by our sha firstkill 2 mages were fine). It got messy because the raid dmg was too high, some spikes/bad rng could kill us, and the lack of hybrid healcds is unforgiveable in 10m HC progression imo. We could do it eventually, sure, but it makes the fight unnecessaryly harder, and that is nothing you want for progression.

    Also, our ToT HC council firstkill was with 2 mages, and we almost didn't make it because of Khazra'jin Dmg reflection coupled with +dmg debuff...

    Don't make up facts. If you look on wowprogress dream paragon was the first place 10m guild and they have a mage in half their kills, including council:

    http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/...ting.tier15_10

    Nightmare Asylum was the first US 10m guild to clear heroic ToT and they have a mage in almost every kill, including HC council:

    http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/...ting.tier15_10

    And we're not discussing previous tiers, just ToT (post 5.2). Furthermore, most 10m had 1-2 disc priests because they are near godlike OP and need to be nerfed and same goes for prot pallys. The amount of HPS on top of the benefit of absorbs plus their added DPS made disc priests mandatory. Coupled with prot pally's ability to solo tank several of the fights along with their self healing and DPS when vengeance was stacked high made it so that you had 1-2 extra dps and half a healer aka 10 people doing the work of 11-12. Warlocks are strong no doubt but they went through huge revamps for MoP and so it will take time to balance that out. Balance druids are the only valid argument as being extremely useful early ToT compared to others hence why there was one almost every group.

  15. #35
    GC tweeted about raid utility this week:

    Kevin ‏@tehstool 28 Jun
    @Ghostcrawler Have you seen this post detailing some concerns about hunters? http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...E-concerns-etc
    It has some nice points.


    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler 28 Jun
    @tehstool We are pretty happy with raid utility for all specs. Every class asks for more to guarantee a raid spot.

    Phillip Nowicki ‏@ugadawg9288 1 Jul
    @Ghostcrawler @tehstool What utility do hunters offer in 25m or even well organized 10m that another class or two don't already bring?

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler 2 Jul
    @ugadawg9288 @tehstool That is true of everyone but warlocks, who probably bring too much.


    So they do seem to share the sentiment that locks bring too much utility right now. Not sure what they feel like it pushes them over the edge, whether it be healthstones or gateways, or both. Both those are unique. Summoning stones and their AOE are just icing on the cake. I've noticed a lot of pug raid leaders in trade are going out of their way for locks.
    Last edited by MrExcelion; 2013-07-04 at 09:01 PM.

  16. #36
    Bloodsail Admiral Avada Kedavra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    MN - USA
    Posts
    1,154
    Mages bring a shit ton of raid utility.

    Mage food. nuff said
    “What was God doing before the divine creation? Was he preparing hell for people who asked such questions?” - Stephen Hawking

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by qyietstorm View Post
    Don't make up facts. If you look on wowprogress dream paragon was the first place 10m guild and they have a mage in half their kills, including council:
    I didn't make up facts, I just stated how the beginning of MoP was for Mages in 10m hc.

    Ofc the picture changed a little with ToT, but even there you could see that mages got benched on the "hard" 10m fights like council or animus for a second lock, or second owl or whatever.

  18. #38
    Banned Lei Shi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Terrace of Endless Spring
    Posts
    1,656
    Quote Originally Posted by Avada Kedavra View Post
    Mages bring a shit ton of raid utility.

    Mage food. nuff said
    Eat banquet food or bring your own food. The only thing you'll ever receive from mages is arcane brilliance.

  19. #39
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Edinburgh, Scotland
    Posts
    3,170
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandacally View Post
    Don't these ignorant lines already classify you for trolling/spam which is quite unwelcome on most forums?
    25H spec score - mages top.
    25N spec score - mages top.
    10H spec score - mages top.
    10N spec score - mages top.

    Get a grip of yourself. I'm not the one being ignorant, it's a fact that mages are the best DPS class in the game. Yes, that's right, FACT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandacally View Post
    What your are raving about is only your impression, but you can not back it up with data nor destinguish what many mages see as a major concern for their class.
    Oops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandacally View Post
    Look at wowprogress 10m HC for the first-kill setups from the progressing guilds.
    You mean the best two guilds in the world (DREAM Paragon and Method) don't have mages?

    I'd have a long, hard think before responding again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandacally View Post
    And the arguments like [this] are misleading, blizzard is terrified of making any class be terrible and not played any more. They want players to have fun, so that they'll stay and pay their game.
    Except it's considered unacceptable for mages to be anything other than the single best DPS class in the game. If they're not, for any reason (even in fights when they should be behind multi-DoT classes for example), they'll be buffed. The evidence for this is overwhelming, I'm afraid.

    I'm betting you wish you hadn't posted.

    Fairy laughter.

    All I'm saying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  20. #40
    Linking top 100 to show that fire mages are on top? Do you know how a fire mages works?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •