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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post

    Like I said already - go away and play a Shadow priest, Elemental shaman or hunter in endgame. When you've done that, I dare you to come back here and cry that mages need help.
    Exactly! I feel sorry for the situation the hunter and the shadow priest in my raid is in. We have a hunter for tortos and to stop the disenchanting of mail agi gear on the other bosses.

    I love my self cooldowns. I can survive more stuff than most other classes. I dont want a raid CD and stand there 10 sek. channeling a heal spell. It was never our job to do this and i hope it will never be.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Wait, what?

    You think "balance" is a unique buff that only mages provide (on top of their amazing damage, of course)? Erm, no. Get a grip of yourself. Mages are already set apart from their raid mates by an abundance of utility spells and abilities that only they can do, and we start to get tears because you're not unique in more ways than you already are?

    I thought the sensible mages had chased people like you away.

    Like I said already - go away and play a Shadow priest, Elemental shaman or hunter in endgame. When you've done that, I dare you to come back here and cry that mages need help.

    Jesus.
    Elemental shamans bring a huge amount of utility and with the current state of most fights (cleave being amazing) are probably a weak arguement. But 100% agree with shadow priests and hunters (outside of Tortos). When we were recruiting for ranged DPS we didn't even consider shadow priests, and Hunter took lowest priority.

    We were actually considering 2 mages for awhile instead of a S.priest / Hunter

  3. #123
    Bloodsail Admiral spaace's Avatar
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    So, end result in all this... Mages do have tons of utility, just no big RAID cooldowns (except TW). The plus side, we can soak major mechanics with GI/IB.. so that should be considered a raid cd right?

    I've said it before.. Mages are fine right now.. In fact, we're really good.. 3 top dps specs(which casue more fights then if were another class.. because most of the mage community seem to be angry 12yr old boys hitting puberty..)
    Who cares if we have 1 or 2 spells or talents that suck.. It's a lot better then some of the classes right now. The game is always changing.
    You really want to blame something? Blame PVP, because 95% of all changes are some way related to it.
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  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    So, end result in all this... Mages do have tons of utility, just no big RAID cooldowns (except TW). The plus side, we can soak major mechanics with GI/IB.. so that should be considered a raid cd right?
    Yes to the first part. No to the second part. Many dps specs have soaking mechanisms that function similarly to mages. A raid CD would be something like Smoke Bomb.


    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    I've said it before.. Mages are fine right now.. In fact, we're really good.. 3 top dps specs(which casue more fights then if were another class.. because most of the mage community seem to be angry 12yr old boys hitting puberty..)
    Who cares if we have 1 or 2 spells or talents that suck.. It's a lot better then some of the classes right now. The game is always changing.
    You really want to blame something? Blame PVP, because 95% of all changes are some way related to it.
    I do agree that mages are in a fine position dps wise. The problem is, an extra 1-5% dps in the current state of wow is generally less helpful than the utility that other classes bring, specifically if we are talking about high level progression raiding. The guild I'm in was something like the #40 US guild, and they had no mages for most of the tier, including no mages on their first Lei Shen and Ra-Den kills (I'm not part of the top progression team in my guild). What they did have was 2 paladins, 2 priests, and 2 monks. So you might say that while mage dps is way better than a ret pally, or a WW monk, it's not that much better that it helps down bosses any better than other classes.

    The point of all this is that the OP is right, but I believe the solution is as others have stated - take away the utility from other classes. The mage personal toolkit is quite fun, and personals >>> raid cd's for fun factor for sure.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Wait, what?

    You think "balance" is a unique buff that only mages provide (on top of their amazing damage, of course)? Erm, no. Get a grip of yourself. Mages are already set apart from their raid mates by an abundance of utility spells and abilities that only they can do, and we start to get tears because you're not unique in more ways than you already are?

    I thought the sensible mages had chased people like you away.

    Like I said already - go away and play a Shadow priest, Elemental shaman or hunter in endgame. When you've done that, I dare you to come back here and cry that mages need help.

    Jesus.
    well youre very mad.

    you need to calm down dude. take a step back away from the screen and think about it. the op said that people would stray away from mages because we don't bring a buff to the raid.

    im arguing that if we had a buff it would be op as fuck.

    we would need something else.

    thats all.

    relax.
    deep breaths.
    chill out.

  6. #126
    The Lightbringer Zell the Stormbreaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    Elemental shamans bring a huge amount of utility and with the current state of most fights (cleave being amazing) are probably a weak arguement. But 100% agree with shadow priests and hunters (outside of Tortos). When we were recruiting for ranged DPS we didn't even consider shadow priests, and Hunter took lowest priority.

    We were actually considering 2 mages for awhile instead of a S.priest / Hunter
    I think that's fair commentary; Elemental shamans are typically found in the top guilds for this reason, so that's a cool correction. Their DPS, however, is in no way even remotely comparable to a mage, so they're paying the hybrid tax.

    Quote Originally Posted by Not Againnn View Post
    well youre very mad.
    No, just confused as to how somebody can be so lacking in such basic game-design knowledge.

    Your next comment is an example:

    Quote Originally Posted by Not Againnn View Post
    the op said that people would stray away from mages because we don't bring a buff to the raid.

    im arguing that if we had a buff it would be op as fuck.

    we would need something else.
    There are no examples of mages being strayed away from, and this is because of their single-target potential, multi-target potential and their individual utility that can be put to imaginative use on behalf of the raid. Therefore, if mages did get something else, they'd be overpowered because they'd be getting the one thing you don't think they have; a powerful defensive raid cooldown. They'd be the only class in this position and, thus, the best class in the game by default.

    Concluding that that would be "balance" implies, very clearly, that you haven't the faintest idea how games are designed. You're almost as bad as that idiot Zumio who, after beating a warrior in a duel without ever going below 80% health, argued that Second Wind needed nerfed.

    Bigger picture.

    Please try and see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Not Againnn View Post
    relax.
    deep breaths.
    chill out.
    Cute.

  7. #127
    When they reduce all mage spell coefficients by 10%, gut Combustion's scaling potential, and un-revert the change to PoM / Alter Time, I will campaign on your behalf for mage utility.

    Maybe an Alter Time duplicate for the entire raid? 10 minute cooldown, unresettable, sets your Alter Time on it's standard cooldown and doesn't change player location.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by boogie View Post
    When they reduce all mage spell coefficients by 10%, gut Combustion's scaling potential, and un-revert the change to PoM / Alter Time, I will campaign on your behalf for mage utility.
    Tell me something, what makes you post things like these? I mean seriously I wanna know..

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I think that's fair commentary; Elemental shamans are typically found in the top guilds for this reason, so that's a cool correction. Their DPS, however, is in no way even remotely comparable to a mage, so they're paying the hybrid tax.


    No, just confused as to how somebody can be so lacking in such basic game-design knowledge.

    Your next comment is an example:


    There are no examples of mages being strayed away from, and this is because of their single-target potential, multi-target potential and their individual utility that can be put to imaginative use on behalf of the raid. Therefore, if mages did get something else, they'd be overpowered because they'd be getting the one thing you don't think they have; a powerful defensive raid cooldown. They'd be the only class in this position and, thus, the best class in the game by default.

    Concluding that that would be "balance" implies, very clearly, that you haven't the faintest idea how games are designed. You're almost as bad as that idiot Zumio who, after beating a warrior in a duel without ever going below 80% health, argued that Second Wind needed nerfed.

    Bigger picture.

    Please try and see it.


    Cute.
    your one paragraph proved my point like 4 times over.
    good job lol.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Tell me something, what makes you post things like these? I mean seriously I wanna know..

    As a balance to people who think they need raid utility on top of the best DPS in the game? Obviously Combustion is broken with gear scaling, and anyone who disagrees is trying to hang on to the magical unicorn of broken DPS they are riding right now. I think that will get at least toned down though. I think most of the points in this thread are comparing mages to warlocks, but I don't think anyone at least on the mage forum would disagree that Warlocks raid utility needs to be either less unique or less amazing.

    One active warlock portal at a time would probably be a good start.

    And like I said, if you take a 10% coefficient nerf to all of your spells, on top of Combustion being fixed, I would be in here saying that mages need raid utility too. As it stands? They do not, they get a guaranteed raid spot due to unparalleled damage. Do you need more guaranteed spots?

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by boogie View Post
    As a balance to people who think they need raid utility on top of the best DPS in the game? Obviously Combustion is broken with gear scaling, and anyone who disagrees is trying to hang on to the magical unicorn of broken DPS they are riding right now. I think that will get at least toned down though. I think most of the points in this thread are comparing mages to warlocks, but I don't think anyone at least on the mage forum would disagree that Warlocks raid utility needs to be either less unique or less amazing.

    One active warlock portal at a time would probably be a good start.

    And like I said, if you take a 10% coefficient nerf to all of your spells, on top of Combustion being fixed, I would be in here saying that mages need raid utility too. As it stands? They do not, they get a guaranteed raid spot due to unparalleled damage. Do you need more guaranteed spots?
    as a mage i agree. we dont need anything else other than fire not being so crity, frost scaling buffs and t6 talent overhaul srsly.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Not Againnn View Post
    as a mage i agree. we dont need anything else other than fire not being so crity, frost scaling buffs and t6 talent overhaul srsly.

    Actually I wouldn't complain about them bringing the spell haste buff as well, make filling out those raid buffs easier in 10 man.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by boogie View Post
    Actually I wouldn't complain about them bringing the spell haste buff as well, make filling out those raid buffs easier in 10 man.
    think about it from a pvp standpoint though. our dps is already over the top there. do we really need to bring a group/ourselves passive spell haste too? no.

    thats just asking to get nerfed. if we were to be blessed with a raid cd, we would need something completely off the wall and unique to mages. we need to be able to effect a group without effecting ourselves or our damage too intensely. anything more and its broken for pvp and there would be no reason to bring anything but mages in pve.

  14. #134
    lol 10% to all spells? no thanks jeff.
    you mirin' my class? ye u mirin'. i dont need you to campaign on my behalf

  15. #135
    Give them an aura where they choose between haste or crit?

    I think the raidwide variation on Alter Time on a 10m CD that puts your alter time on CD and doesn't effect character positions / health / mana would fit that criteria. Buff the raid, no effect on mages DPS and they have to trade some of their Alter Time's utility to use it. Wouldn't work in arenas, could disable it in RBGs if necessary.

  16. #136
    Hmmm I'm guessing all this qq is because Locks are insane atm with utility/damage/selfheals(absorbs). Right way should be to nerf locks and not buff mages. But sure let's give smoke bomb/amz etc. to mages so there's absolutely no need to take a melee in raid.

    5% crit btw is pretty rare buff in my opinion, in our raidgroup it's brought by a hunters pet.

  17. #137
    Class-unique utility is bad, not good.

    The game needs less, not more.

    Bring the player not the class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lei Shi View Post
    Hunters have the most utility of all classes. They should make mages do higher DPS than other classes against NPCs to make up for the lack of utility.
    And yet I just came out of a Hunter thread complaining about them not having any utility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    That's the current model - mages pretty much dominate RaidBots at the high, intermediate and low levels of play.
    No, mage DPS being the top is just an accident.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by freyaether View Post
    Hmmm I'm guessing all this qq is because Locks are insane atm with utility/damage/selfheals(absorbs). Right way should be to nerf locks and not buff mages. But sure let's give smoke bomb/amz etc. to mages so there's absolutely no need to take a melee in raid.

    5% crit btw is pretty rare buff in my opinion, in our raidgroup it's brought by a hunters pet.
    imo, they should make a mage's armor effect the raid/party.
    mage armor gives mastery, molten gives crit, and frost gives haste. no change to mage gameplay at all really unless you armor swap as fire, etc.

    the raid wide alter time would be fucking ridiculous and extremely op for arena. you guys think too pve. gotta balance ideas for the pvp players as well or else it isnt even worth saying.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Not Againnn View Post
    imo, they should make a mage's armor effect the raid/party.
    mage armor gives mastery, molten gives crit, and frost gives haste. no change to mage gameplay at all really unless you armor swap as fire, etc.

    the raid wide alter time would be fucking ridiculous and extremely op for arena. you guys think too pve. gotta balance ideas for the pvp players as well or else it isnt even worth saying.
    I don't like this raid wide mage armor idea, then you have mages forced to use an armor that doesn't benefit them as much because "well haste is the best stat for the rest of the raid so don't use molten armor"

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Not Againnn View Post
    imo, they should make a mage's armor effect the raid/party.
    mage armor gives mastery, molten gives crit, and frost gives haste. no change to mage gameplay at all really unless you armor swap as fire, etc.

    the raid wide alter time would be fucking ridiculous and extremely op for arena. you guys think too pve. gotta balance ideas for the pvp players as well or else it isnt even worth saying.
    Jesus christ, please no. That's like Focus Magic, but a million times worse. Let mage armor stay mage armor.

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